Why solipsism is not Absolute

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

You don't understand the absolute and the relative, you have yet to experience a miracle. I went through a 6 week trip of miracles with real world consequences. For example...my cell phone...was teleported out of existence and I had to buy a new one.

The fact that you portray a trip to the mental hospital as something which you had a fully sober and clear personal account of is indicative of the problem.

 

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

So this belief that the absolute and the relative can even be conflated, is itself...a delusion. It cannot, there is only the Absolute. Conflation only happens with order, reality...can be chaotic and destroy order.

Of course you won't have a problem with chaos if it thoroughly pervades your mind. But don't expect others to be OK with that.

 

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

I've never said there are perceptions. You are making stuff up.

...sure:

On 16.11.2024 at 2:02 AM, Razard86 said:

On 15.11.2024 at 11:11 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Now answer the question. I will re-phrase it and make it more specific:

Is it possible that the colors, sounds and smells you currently are perceiving (perceptions), are not the only perceptions that could be perceived, and that some perceptions could be currently hidden to you?

[...] Whatever perceptions you are perceiving are the only perceptions available in the current state. [...]

In hindsight, your response to that question doesn't even make sense, but I let it go because I was focused on you explaining how a relativistic concept like "currently" could be absolute (which you never answered by the way, you just gave your usual pop idealist ramble while not responding to anything in particular).

Edited 10 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Mu_]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The fact that you portray a trip to the mental hospital as something which you have a fully sober and clear personal account of is indicative of the problem. Of course you won't have a problem with chaos if it thoroughly pervades your mind. But don't expect others to accept that.

 

...sure:

In hindsight, your response to that question doesn't even make sense, but I let it go because I was focused on you explaining how a relativistic concept like "currently" could be absolute (which you never answered by the way, you just gave your usual pop idealist ramble while not responding to anything in particular).

Who cares?  I'm not trying to be a dick, but honestly, so what, who cares?

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Mu_ said:

Who cares?  I'm not trying to be a dick, but honestly, so what, who cares?

I was being a dick, and I'm sorry, but that is what I said. I let it sit for many minutes and I still felt like it was appropriate to say. Maybe it wasn't. I don't take mental health stigma lightly, but I also don't take parading it around lightly either, especially not in this context with what's at stake.

Because, are we acknowledging what is happening? That on serious matters such as solipsism, where people routinely become mentally unstable because of thinking about it, people are routinely muddying their language or in fact abandoning the function of language altogether? Is it not in line to maybe call this out and maybe provide a counter? Are we acknowledging what's at stake?

Edited 7 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Mu_]

26 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Are we acknowledging what is happening? That on serious matters such as solipsism, where people routinely become mentally unstable because of thinking about it, people are routinely muddying their language or in fact abandoning the function of language altogether? Is it not in line to maybe call this out and maybe provide a counter? Are we acknowledging what's at stake?

I truely feel ya, yeah, I know what you mean and are trying to accomplish.  Perhaps I dont feel Razar is coming from that in this moment and its not needed to address that in this moment.

That said, unfortunaletly?, that is part of Gods will and journey as well, and will seem to happen again.

Here's the thing, I don't believe there is a way to "FULLY" encompass God/what is, in a description, an experience, a book, an anything or a nothing........

From my experience, everything you could say is partial and yet total.  When Oneness is understood and pervades, it forgets non-oneness experience and vise versa.... and yet both by definition are One and the same, but neither are the same "experience"

One description of truth and the experience its expressed from lacks another aspect of truth, and yet by many of the accepted definitions of understanding Self and the actuality of going through the process of, its all Self, so its not false to say everything is true, including all contradictions, and including the contradiction of the last statement into infinitim, but honestly the normal "mind" can find this troubling and sometimes propel into insanity...

I have no point in what I'm saying, just saying what I've noticed to this point... so take it for what you will.

Edited 9 hours ago by Mu_

[Razard86]

40 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The fact that you portray a trip to the mental hospital as something which you had a fully sober and clear personal account of is indicative of the problem.

 

Of course you won't have a problem with chaos if it thoroughly pervades your mind. But don't expect others to be OK with that.

 

...sure:

In hindsight, your response to that question doesn't even make sense, but I let it go because I was focused on you explaining how a relativistic concept like "currently" could be absolute (which you never answered by the way, you just gave your usual pop idealist ramble while not responding to anything in particular).

Carl....I don't have time to respond to every imagined issue that you keep making up. You are literally determined to not understand and then accuse me of not being understood. Then you accuse me of saying stuff I never said. At a certain point it gets tiring watching you claim to take these conversations seriously.

You said Solipsism is not Absolute...and have yet to ever prove otherwise. Explain to me how something that is TOTAL, and ABSOLUTELY UNIFIED....explain how that is not Solipsistic? 

Do you take others with you when you go to sleep at night? No. Do you take others with you when the body dies? No. And if you go Infinite you won't take anybody with you either. Other....is a DREAM. As such....Solipsism is Absolute.

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Carl....I don't have time to respond to every imagined issue that you keep making up. You are literally determined to not understand and then accuse me of not being understood. Then you accuse me of saying stuff I never said. At a certain point it gets tiring watching you claim to take these conversations seriously.

You said Solipsism is not Absolute...and have yet to ever prove otherwise. Explain to me how something that is TOTAL, and ABSOLUTELY UNIFIED....explain how that is not Solipsistic? 

Do you take others with you when you go to sleep at night? No. Do you take others with you when the body dies? No. And if you go Infinite you won't take anybody with you either. Other....is a DREAM. As such....Solipsism is Absolute.

Answer the question: is it possible that some colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings are hidden?

[Razard86]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Answer the question: is it possible that some colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings are hidden?

Sigh.....if you imagine that....then YES. Reality is infinite imagination. This means there is NOTHING BUT IMAGINATION. How your ego creates infinite chains of regress is by telling itself something can be true. By doing that it creates that possibility within their mind. So if you think something is hidden, then that is the Reality YOU ARE CREATING FOR YOURSELF!!!

Why do you think conspiracy theorists exist? They exist because the mind can conjure up connections that don't exist into existence. If something is hidden that means it is nothing. Nothing is an infinite possibility spectrum, to ever experience what is so called hidden, that nothing has to make it appear as something. There are levels to imagination. Right now when you posited that question, you created something from nothing, in God Consciousness, your question....would reveal hidden colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings.

But what you don't understand is....if everything is revealed....then there is nothing hidden. Thus.....absolute unity........

[emil1234]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

..my cell phone...was teleported out of existence and I had to buy a new one. 

 

 

thats such an epic one liner.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Sigh.....if you imagine that....then YES.

If by "if you imagine that", you mean "if God imagines that", then it's all good.

Alright, so if you claim that it's indeed possible that some colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings can be hidden, then we have at least defeated the problematic form of solipsism that the thread is about ("no other people are conscious, and this is absolute"), which is the type of solipsism that many people seem to be concerned about.

Now, some might say "I can only be certain that my colors, sounds, thoughts exist, but it's still possible that I'm wrong" and call themselves solipsists, but I doubt people would be losing their minds over that if that was their actual position. What is actually happening, of course, is that they're conflating it with the absolute: solipsism is "absolutely the case", there is no other way. And that's what's so dangerous.

Anyways, again, this was the kind of solipsism we were concerned about addressing in this thread. And again, this form of solipsism is obviously not absolute.

You can of course speak of a different kind of solipsism where it's the divine Self that is the only "self" that exist, but within that "self", certain colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings may still be hidden to some smaller selves. And also again, we are addressing the other kind of solipsism here, which again is a pervasive issue that needs to be addressed.

 

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

But what you don't understand is....if everything is revealed....then there is nothing hidden. Thus.....absolute unity........

You have to lay down with this habit of asserting that the other person you're speaking to "doesn't understand". It's so needlessly condescending.

Edited 7 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Razard86]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If by "if you imagine that", you mean "if God imagines that", then it's all good.

Alright, so if you claim that it's indeed possible that some colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings can be hidden, then we have at least defeated the problematic form of solipsism that the thread is about ("no other people are conscious, and this is absolute"), which is the type of solipsism that many people seem to be concerned about.

Now, some might say "I can only be certain that my colors, sounds, thoughts exist, but it's still possible that I'm wrong" and call themselves solipsists, but I doubt people would be losing their minds over that if that was their actual position. What is actually happening, of course, is that they conflate it with the absolute: solipsism is "absolutely the case", there is no other way. And that's exactly why it's so dangerous.

Anyways, again, this was the kind of solipsism we were concerned about addressing in this thread. And again, this form of solipsism is obviously not absolute.

You can of course speak of a kind of solipsism where it's the divine Self that is the only "self" that exist, but within that "self", certain colors, sounds, thoughts and feelings may still be hidden to some smaller selves. But again, we are addressing the other kind of solipsism here, which again is a pervasive issue that needs to be addressed.

 

You have to lay down with this habit of asserting that the other person you're speaking to "doesn't understand". It's so needlessly condescending.

What I am saying is the only difference between your ego's imagination and God's imagination is immersion. God imagines your entire experience, then within that experience, God as the ego imagines human thoughts and ideas. The purpose of Spiritual work is to realize that the only difference between God and the ego it created is the ego isn't allowed to control experience for itself. 

But your human imagination is equal to God imagination. It's just appearing as limited is the only thing. So should you choose to entertain the idea of something being hidden, you actually made it appear. You just did it with human level imagination instead of God level imagination. Our ego likes to create distinctions between human imagination and God imagination. To break the distinction you have to investigate how their is no distinction.

Carl the point is this.....if you create a world of others....you are still alone within the world of your human body. While in the human body, and in normal human consciousness your ability to experience reality is Absolute onto yourself. A blind man does not know reality the same as you, he would literally need to enter God mode to see. So that's the first level of Absolutism.

The second level of Absolutism, is God mode when you become everything. Whatever you experience is Absolute because YOU ARE EXPERIENCE. That is what you keep avoiding. Name a time you experienced something without being there to experience it? If I put you in deep sleep, there would be no experience. So as a result there cannot be anything hidden. What you are experiencing is the thought of something being hidden and you can keep on saying that. 

But you can only experience nothing as something. If you get rid of something...then it cannot be something you are experiencing. That's what I mean by you are imagining that. To do this work properly you need to understand what the difference between appearance and non appearance. You are mistaking your assumption of something being behind the scenes as proof of something being behind the scenes. But for that to be true....you would need to experience it....but if you did.....it would no longer be behind the scenes. Thus defeating the argument that there is something behind the scenes.

The Absolute Truth is NOTHING is behind the scenes.

[Javfly33]

@Razard86 Perception is Infinite.

You are lost in your mind. Of course you are alone. But we exist, inside your own Perception.

There are not TWO perceptions, there is only One perception, but it has no end. Look around and try to see a border in perception. See if you can find it. 

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

@Razard86 Perception is Infinite.

You are lost in your mind. Of course you are alone. But we exist, inside your own Perception.

There are not TWO perceptions, there is only One perception, but it has no end. Look around and try to see a border in perception. See if you can find it. 

1. There is no Perception. Perception is something that happens to a brain and something that happens to a biological body. You aren't even reading an d trying to comprehend, you are trying to argue. But also, THERE IS PERCEPTION.

First there is Consciousness. Consciousness imagines itself to be a human. Once it imagines itself to be a human it imagines all the functionalities that a human has. One of those functionalities is perception. So perception DOES exist, but it exists within the dream of human. If someone opened up your head and carved out pieces of your brain and you don't bleed to death you would experience a loss of perception. You could lose the ability to see the world, you could lose hearing, you could even lose physical touch. But you wouldn't lose experience. 

This is why I have said...EVERYTHING IS TRUE. The moment you say one thing isn't true, you put a limitation on God, on Infinity. Infinity is that which makes EVERYTHING TRUE, the mystery is figuring out how it goes about it.

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You are mistaking your assumption of something being behind the scenes as proof of something being behind the scenes. But for that to be true....you would need to experience it....but if you did.....it would no longer be behind the scenes. Thus defeating the argument that there is something behind the scenes.

There are so many assumptions behind words like "experience", "proof" and "true" that I'm afraid only can be remedied by unwinding the pop idealist worldview for yourself.

 

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

The Absolute Truth is NOTHING is behind the scenes.

There is nothing behind the scenes in an absolute sense, but at the same time, in a relative sense, there can be things behind the scenes. And this is not a contradiction of the absolute, because again, the absolute transcends and includes the relative.

Even if it seems contradictory on the surface as we are seemingly dividing the absolute into absolute vs relative, you of all people should be able to understand this as you seemingly love contradictions and counterintuitive inversions.

Besides, you yourself go to great lengths to divide the absolute into concepts to elucidate your points, so again, I don't see what the struggle is.

Edited 1 hour ago by Carl-Richard