The Psychology of Fascism - The Shadow of Victim's Mentality

[Oeaohoo]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The devil cannot stand the light and the love, so he doubles down on devilish domination.

Fundamentally a dense ego cannot stand pure love. A dense ego is too wounded, hurt, bitter, angry, vengeful, arrogant, ignorant, combative, closedminded, insecure, greedy, lustful, etc.

The devil would rather rule in Hell than bow to Love.

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hurt people hurt people.

Those who know no love will make it their life purpose to deny others love.

Yes, this is all true… But where is the light and love in the present year?

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

Thank you for sharing this. I'm trying to get a clear sense for what draws people into the far right on a psychological level. And this touches on the allure of the aesthetics of the idealized Fascist persona as well as the insecurities that make that persona have that aesthetic appeal and feel like a solution.

Have you seen Taxi Driver? It’s basically a case study of this phenomenon.

[Oeaohoo]

@Leo Gura I think your cynicism about humanity is a way for you to cling to your delusional view of what life should be.

[gettoefl]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The answer to your concern is very simple:

All humans are evil.

I have to preserve me

even if I have to kill you

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

Have you seen Taxi Driver? It’s basically a case study of this phenomenon.

I haven't seen Taxi Driver, though I've heard it's about a really vulnerable guy who's trying to be tough but is a bit crazy and is an outcast.

I heard that the Joaquin Phoenix Joker move was inspired by it.

[Nemra]

14 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

I think if you love Japan you're fascist.

There is no others country that has more of a fascist vibe.

If you idealize or think anything good about Japan you have fascist tendencies.

@AerisVahnEphelia, you're a fascist if you drink water. 😉

Edited Friday at 07:20 PM by Nemra

[tenfo]

Nice thread, I've been thinking lately about what makes people attracted to ideologies like facism because an old friend of mine started going deep into these rabbit holes. I don't even know how respond to the stuff he sends me, mostly because I'm not educated on these issues - but even if I was, I don't think debating with him is going to make any difference. 

Your client is a great example that even if you're somewhat self-aware and open for change, it can still be a lot of work until you find the root of the problem instead of projecting it onto others. Let alone dealing with someone who will call you an 'NPC' just because you tell them to be more skeptical and careful when dealing with these ideas.

This is what this friend sent me the other day, and he said, quote; "This is The Thruth word for word"

But what I found weird about this video, is that I couldn't find a comment that agrees with Piers, so am I really an NPC? lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KICYv4O03CA&t=2s

[Emerald]

54 minutes ago, tenfo said:

Nice thread, I've been thinking lately about what makes people attracted to ideologies like facism because an old friend of mine started going deep into these rabbit holes. I don't even know how respond to the stuff he sends me, mostly because I'm not educated on these issues - but even if I was, I don't think debating with him is going to make any difference. 

Your client is a great example that even if you're somewhat self-aware and open for change, it can still be a lot of work until you find the root of the problem instead of projecting it onto others. Let alone dealing with someone who will call you an 'NPC' just because you tell them to be more skeptical and careful when dealing with these ideas.

This is what this friend sent me the other day, and he said, quote; "This is The Thruth word for word"

But what I found weird about this video, is that I couldn't find a comment that agrees with Piers, so am I really an NPC? lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KICYv4O03CA&t=2s

It's unfortunate how common this pattern is of so many people (especially young men) falling into these right wing radicalization pipelines. And it's definitely a mixture of the propaganda, and a desire to fit in... plus whatever emotional vulnerabilities are at play that make Fascism feel correct and satisfying. 

It just shows how vulnerable people are to this kind of pattern.

Now, the difficulty with the Piers Morgan interview is that Dan Bilzerian is saying a few true things about the Israeli government... and using those few true things about the Israeli government to justify his anti-Jewish terrorism apologia, antisemitism, and Neo-Nazi holocaust denial rhetoric. 

And then Piers Morgan is arguing back with perspectives that are biased towards the Israeli government that diminish the war crimes the Israeli government has levied towards the Palestinian people... and to see the Israeli government as totally innocent and Hamas as the only problem (despite the Israeli government displacing millions and slaughtering 100k+ Palestine civilians, mostly women and children). 

So, it's two genocide apologists arguing with one another... one who seems to believes there should be a genocide against Jewish people... and the other who seems to believe that Jewish people should be allowed to commit genocide against the Palestinian people.

Really, both perspectives are highly unconscious because neither are actually ideological opposed to genocide... and I don't agree with either of them.

[Oeaohoo]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

It's unfortunate how common this pattern is of so many people (especially young men) falling into these right wing radicalization pipelines. And it's definitely a mixture of the propaganda, and a desire to fit in... plus whatever emotional vulnerabilities are at play that make Fascism feel correct and satisfying. 

It’s because this society sucks for a young man.

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, Oeaohoo said:

It’s because this society sucks for a young man.

Such a victim mindset.

[Oeaohoo]

4 hours ago, Terell Kirby said:

Such a victim mindset.

Screw mindsets, it’s the truth.

Self-help and modern spirituality are just a way to pretend you’re free within your prison cell.

As the wind blows more and more of your life away, you can chant magical platitudes into your third-eye chakra: “I am not a victim!”, “I am the master of my own reality!”, “Change your attitude, change your world!”

Edited yesterday at 09:49 AM by Oeaohoo

[Oeaohoo]

Imagine Tony Robbins on a stage, raping a woman whilst enthusiastically shouting at her: “You are not a victim!”

That is the perfect metaphor for the way this god-awful system uses self-help.

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

That is the perfect metaphor for the way this god-awful system uses self-help.

There is  certainly such a thing as self help cope and delusion.

Edited yesterday at 09:59 AM by zurew

[Rafael Thundercat]

Healing From Hate. 

 

[tenfo]

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

And it's definitely a mixture of the propaganda, and a desire to fit in...

Not sure about the desire to fit in. The vibe I got from these people is a desire to fight the mainstream and there is a sense of pride in doing so.

But in a sense they are fitting in, just with the people that are fighting the system.

 

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

Dan Bilzerian is saying a few true things about the Israeli government...

Sure I would agree, that's why this is so tricky and not so obvious.

 

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, it's two genocide apologists arguing with one another...

That's the online world these days, polarization squared. 

Can you recommend any sources that have a fairly objective perspective on this Israel - Palestine issue.

Hasan seems quite objective on the issue?

[Hardkill]

How many of you feel completely hopeless?

Right now, I feel like I don’t have much hope for the next 10-30 years of my life because of this dark world we’re in now.

[Rafael Thundercat]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

How many of you feel completely hopeless?

Right now, I feel like I don’t have much hope for the next 10-30 years of my life because of this dark world we’re in now.

Lets talk 5 years from now. 

[Emerald]

23 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

It’s because this society sucks for a young man.

It can suck for young men. But that's mostly because of how society is structured to disincentivize social connection. And many men hold views that cause them to be hyper-independent and feel like they "shouldn't need anyone".

And there are lots of ideologies that discourage men from being themselves. And they instead have to try to imitate the idea of what a strong man is in order to fit in. And the strong man is strong, stoic, independent, self-sufficient, and doesn't whine about things. He just gets on with it. He is the lone wolf that walks through the world with perfect resolve, and without any desire or need to lick his own wounds.

And therein lies the problem. If someone is pretty good at matching up to these standards (like my client is), it leaves no outlet for vulnerability, pain, venting, reaching out for help, sadness, or getting any kind of sympathy.

And that's why so many men are looking for sympathy through societal grievances and complaints, like in your post about society sucking for young men. And they may even find relief and a space to complain and revel in Victim's Mentality by scapegoating certain people and groups.

But in the example that I gave, my client even acknowledged that he's in a very good situation across the board. His life is genuinely enviable in many ways, and he is aware of this.

So, this pattern isn't coming from any real lack.

It's coming from him denying himself of a need to express vulnerability because his paradigm is one that finds weakness repulsive. And he is not allowing himself to connect with that part of himself and meet those needs. So, his vulnerability is coming out in the form of grievances, and in these more bitter and unconscious ways.

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, tenfo said:

Not sure about the desire to fit in. The vibe I got from these people is a desire to fight the mainstream and there is a sense of pride in doing so.

But in a sense they are fitting in, just with the people that are fighting the system.

----

Sure I would agree, that's why this is so tricky and not so obvious.

---

That's the online world these days, polarization squared. 

Can you recommend any sources that have a fairly objective perspective on this Israel - Palestine issue.

Hasan seems quite objective on the issue?

There is a strong sense of social cohesion that comes from being on the same team and fighting a common enemy together.

It's a wartime bonding strategy that makes the bond feel much deeper, because it is a necessary level of care for the other members of your team when you're at war.

It's the same bonding strategy that people feel with other fans of their favorite sports team, who get to 'boo' the opposing sports team together.

And collectively believing conspiracy theories (the bigoted ones and the non-bigoted ones) is actually a pretty effective to produce a kind of social bonding effect.

It sets up an enemy other (i.e. the government, the Hollywood elites, SJWs, Jewish people, NASA, the Illuminati, Feminists, etc.) to band together against. 

I used to enjoy conspiracy theories as a teenager, during the Bush years... back before I saw how most conspiracy theories devolve into things like scapegoating certain minorities. I thought they were pretty harmless.

And my friends and I would smoke weed and start pontificating about all the wild conspiracies that the government was involved in... and how they were hiding things about Ancient Egypt and aliens. And I even had this pet conspiracy theory that I'd cooked up that human beings are half alien and half ape, and that the government is hiding this from us.

And it was SOOO much fun!

And we really bonded over the common enemy... the Bush administration and the government more generally.... or just a vague sense of a nebulous "they" that are trying to pull the wool over our eyes... but we know better.

And this is a very common bonding strategy in little rural towns where people are fairly powerless to the powers that be. 

Now, it was all a bunch of hogwash. That's very clear in retrospect. And if I was honest with myself then, deep down I didn't believe these conspiracy theories either. Back then, I would have totally jumped on the flat Earth idea... not because I believe it but because I wanted there to be some secret organization of people Truman Showing us all so that my friends and I could figure it out together and reveal it all.

Now, if we wanted a real conspiracy to focus on, we'd just have to educate ourselves a little bit on boring run-of-the-mill corruption in the government and the private sector. But it was so much more exciting to fight against a collective of two-dimensional comic book villains. 

But when it comes to the situation in Israel, I have been specifically avoiding watching too much about it because it's depressing and I don't have much I can do about it.

It's just a matter of finding out what's happening there and knowing the facts... and having a consistent ethical framework like "murdering civilians is bad and should be avoided."

And that's the problem with Piers and Dan B. Neither of them are operating off of a consistent ethical framework that "murdering civilians is bad and should be avoided." Instead, one is team-Israel and the other is team-Neo-Nazi... and they are biased towards their teams. 

So, it's "If my side murders civilians, it's fine. But if their side murders civilians, it's bad." They are deeply biased in the ways they apply their ethical frameworks.

So, if we agree that murdering civilians is bad that both Hamas and the Israeli government have done bad things (which is an understatement).

But if we look at the scale with which each group is murdering innocent civilians, Israel has killed more innocent civilians than Hamas has as a percentage and as a raw number by a wide margin.

And Hamas is rightly called a terrorist group... except for Neo Nazis who are terrorism apologists if it's someone that's attacking Jewish people.

But because of people's biases towards Israel and against the Palestinians, the murder of innocent civilians is being seen as justified and as "Israel's right to defend itself." But the Israeli government is murdering 90%+ civilians... most of them women and children.

So really, if you want to be un-biased yourself, the number one advice that I can give you is to get clear on your ethical framework and apply that standard the same way to everyone. And don't pick sides, just stay on the side of your ethical framework and evaluate the Israel/Gaza situation based off of your ethical framework.

[Joshe]

On 11/15/2024 at 0:07 AM, Emerald said:

When we label somebody as devilish, we begin to think "That person is devilish and stupid. That's why they became a Fascist. But I am neither devilish nor stupid. So, I would never become a Fascist."

Ignorance and selfishness manifest as “that which is detrimental”, aka, evil. 

Presumably, you share knowledge to serve “that which is good”.

Good and evil exist, and as you point out, evil is the path of least resistance. The whole point of this thread is to shine a light on evil, which manifests in us to the degree that we have been ignorant and indifferent to it. It’s a matter of fact that some are more or less evil than others. 

The more foolish, ignorant, and selfish, the more evil. Identifying and labeling this evil in others does not mean one doesn’t understand it in themselves and it doesn’t mean they’re simply putting others down to feel better about themselves. It doesn’t mean one hates and despises those who one calls ignorant and selfish. This is shortsighted. It only applies to those who don’t know and can’t see what you’ve been saying. You can call a thing what it is without getting your ego off on it. 

There are many who could benefit from their evil being sharply called out. I fit into this category. Because I’m willing to reflect and ask “is it true?”, I can then correct it if it is. There is utility in this. 

What is the point of a teacher? To serve that which is good? Sharply calling it out vs gently guiding people to it seems a matter of style, and I think both have their place. 

I’m turned off by beating around the bush and not calling my evil exactly what it is. I want no sugarcoating or compassion. I want the cold hard truth as it is.

Edited 8 hours ago by Joshe

[Emerald]

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Ignorance and selfishness manifest as “that which is detrimental”, aka, evil. 

Presumably, you share knowledge to serve “that which is good”.

Good and evil exist, and as you point out, evil is the path of least resistance. The whole point of this thread is to shine a light on evil, which manifests in us to the degree that we have been ignorant and indifferent to it. It’s a matter of fact that some are more or less evil than others. 

The more foolish, ignorant, and selfish, the more evil. Identifying and labeling this evil in others does not mean one doesn’t understand it in themselves and it doesn’t mean they’re simply putting others down to feel better about themselves. It doesn’t mean one hates and despises those who one calls ignorant and selfish. This is shortsighted. It only applies to those who don’t know and can’t see what you’ve been saying. You can call a thing what it is without getting your ego off on it. 

There are many who could benefit from their evil being sharply called out. I fit into this category. Because I’m willing to reflect and ask “is it true?”, I can then correct it if it is. There is utility in this. 

What is the point of a teacher? To serve that which is good? Sharply calling it out vs gently guiding people to it seems a matter of style, and I think both have their place. 

I’m turned off by beating around the bush and not calling my evil exactly what it is. I want no sugarcoating or compassion. I want the cold hard truth as it is.

It's okay to call out someone's behavior as harmful as that is an accurate descriptive label that a person can actually reflect on and work on.

And it's even okay to stop people from engaging in harmful behavior through setting very firm boundaries and systems of justice that discourage people from engaging in harmful behavior.

All of these are part of wise discernment, justice, and boundary setting.

And you can get a person to reflect on their actions far better by calling them "harmful" than calling them "evil". And that's because "harmful" is a practical realistic label that is reflective of reality, while "evil" is a moral label that is ambiguous and implies something fundamentally shameful and bad about someone's nature.

When we label someone as evil, we tend to see evil as its own cause. And we paper over the root cause of those "evil" actions. And it cuts us off from unconditional compassion towards ourselves and others. And at that point, all root causes are unconscious to us... and all we can do is to try to defeat and eradicate evil... which makes us behave in an evil way.

That's the trick. The second we say the word evil, we become evil and perpetuate evil. 

So, I don't use the word evil to describe anyone or anything unless I'm specifically talking about evil as a concept.

And when we start labeling out the world in terms of the paradigm of good and evil, this is where the Devil gets us... and we feel shame.

And we either internalize that shame and feel like we are evil. Or we externalize it and name off others as the evil-doers... which has led to all sorts of wars, genocides, murder, the crusades, medieval torture, etc.

This is what happens when we believe in evil. If we believe in the paradigm of good and evil (because of a deeply engrained human bias to see ourselves as good) we start to believe that we are the "good ones" fighting the "evil ones". And this causes us to be "evil."

In the Genesis story, that is precisely why the Devil tempted Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He knew that getting them to see the world through the moralistic lens of good and evil, would produce shame in them and cast them out of the garden... and that everything would become split apart (to Devil means to split in two, so he is responsible in this story for humanity's moralistic dualistic thinking).

And this is the original sin for that reason. And it is the MOST important sin to avoid. 

That's why it's very unwise to start labeling other people (or ourselves) out as evil as it gets into the realm of moralism, judgment, shame, scapegoating, hatred, etc. and all the evil and ignorance that comes as a result.

Instead, stick with practical realistic and descriptive understandings of pure non-judgmental discernment... like "x behavior creates y result." "Do I want y result? Yes or no?"

My ethical compass is simple.... do your best to cause as little harm as possible. And this is plenty enough to discern which actions to take without the need to get into judgment and labels of good and evil.

I made a video about this called "The Most Dangerous Archetype" where I talk all about the issue with operating through the lens of good and evil...