The Psychology of Fascism - The Shadow of Victim's Mentality

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Eheh.

Some months ago i noted some dreams, sometime very detailed and enigmatic, but my tentatives to analyse them was wobbly and it was rather from a Freudian/Lacanian pov.

I haven't approached dreamwork from the Freudian or Lacanian perspective as neither of those perspectives really resonated with me at a deep level. So, I'm not sure what it would entail.

But I have been really into the Jungian framework for about 12 years now.

One of the best Jungian authors that I found in the initial part of my journey is Jean Raffa. She works a lot with dreams, and it was really eye-opening.

I recommend her book "Dream Theatres of the Soul" which explores dreams in relation to the 5 major structures of psychology in the Jungian Framework: Persona, Ego, Shadow, Anima/Animus, and Self.

[Schizophonia]

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

Yes, all political movements are macrocosmic expressions of individual neuroses to some degree. And this is true in any way that our politics is out of alignment with human well-being.

And one of the common neurosis-based patterns in politics (left, right, and center) is the projection of personal psychological patterns onto broad-scale macrocosmic patterns. And so, the internal psychological patterns get transferred onto large-scale geopolitical issues.

And I have said for many years now, that 80% of what happens in politics is just a collective expression of widespread collective trauma patterns that impact individuals. 

But a person need not even consciously think "It's all the fault of the immigrants" to be operating unconsciously from that belief. A person can consciously reject that notion while unconsciously being deeply influenced by it. 

The client I was mentioning was in cognitive dissonance because consciously from the more developed adult version of himself, he could see that he wasn't correct about that. But this other semi-unconscious part of himself that was operating off of a more emotionally driven and childlike part of himself, there was a genuine belief in that paradigm.

That said, there really are people who are consciously convinced that their lives would get better if they were living in an ethnostate with everyone that looked just like them. And they don't even have access to that other perspective as it just feels true for reasons that relate to their emotional state, their vulnerabilities, their general worldview and how much they operate off of the agrarian mindset, their level of critical thinking skills, and other things.

So, I wouldn't even say that someone who consciously believes that is stupid. It is in labelling these people as uniquely bad, stupid, evil, etc. that we ourselves can fall into the traps that they have fallen into.

And that's because we think "That person fell into that trap because they're dumb. But I'm smart, so that will never happen to me." OR "That person fell into the trap because they're evil. But I'm good, so that will never happen to me."

I see.

I have myself an incline to far rights ideas, and even if there is some good to take here i can see how it's fundamentally based on an (sexual ?)excitement about a "far right" imagery, archetype (Order, Unit, Work, Masculinity, Requirement Military suit, Suit, Pragmatism, Realism, Resistance to invaders, Libidinal concentration/intensification (Large military parades, Large joint projects, Flags and eagles everywhere, Sexual repression, Asceticism...), Security, Pride, Brown/Black/Blue color, Countryside, Agrarian, Gray, Slow, Chillness, Melancholy, Nostalgia,  Human warmth, Heaviness...)

 

And in the same time, in this configuration i finish by projecting "hysterical leftists" personas, and i absolutely can't stand the feeling of guilt i can see, it's so unbearable than just seeing the word "problematic" made makes me instantly betray this persona and the implied collective unconscious for a completely different liberal, Latin, messy, bawdy one.

-> Identifying to far right persona -> Leftist persona in mirror -> Reaction by identifying to irresponsible persona (in fine significatively in contradiction with my original far right persona)

I can spend my time in rumination and be unhappy, in fact it almost makes me happy, but excessive humility, guilt, crushing oneself in front of the group is the worst nightmare. So I am regularly torn between my need for power, responsibilities which pushes me towards the hyper-responsable (authoritarian) persona, and the rejection of "social submission" which pushes me towards the second (Irresponsible), even if I believe that it makes me globally unhappy because of passivity.
Overall it is the second which permeates me, and the first which is projected.

 

Sorry i didn't pay for a consultation lol, i just wanted to share how it works for me, hot.

Ps : The "sorry" is motivated by the "authoritarian" persona, the "lol" is the reaction of the second 

Edited November 13 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

19 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

I recommend her book "Dream Theatres of the Soul" which explores dreams in relation to the 5 major structures of psychology in the Jungian Framework: Persona, Ego, Shadow, Anima/Animus, and Self.

Ty, i note. 👍

I have two books of Jung but just read some peace a moment ago.

[Emerald]

On 11/13/2024 at 3:29 PM, Schizophonia said:

I see.

I have myself an incline to far rights ideas, and even if there is some good to take here i can see how it's fundamentally based on an (sexual ?)excitement about a "far right" imagery, archetype (Order, Unit, Work, Masculinity, Requirement Military suit, Suit, Pragmatism, Realism, Resistance to invaders, Libidinal concentration/intensification (Large military parades, Large joint projects, Flags and eagles everywhere, Sexual repression, Asceticism...), Security, Pride, Brown/Black/Blue color, Countryside, Agrarian, Gray, Slow, Chillness, Melancholy, Nostalgia,  Human warmth, Heaviness...)

 

And in the same time, in this configuration i finish by projecting "hysterical leftists" personas, and i absolutely can't stand the feeling of guilt i can see, it's so unbearable than just seeing the word "problematic" made makes me instantly betray this persona and the implied collective unconscious for a completely different liberal, Latin, messy, bawdy one.

-> Identifying to far right persona -> Leftist persona in mirror -> Reaction by identifying to irresponsible persona (in fine significatively in contradiction with my original far right persona)

I can spend my time in rumination and be unhappy, in fact it almost makes me happy, but excessive humility, guilt, crushing oneself in front of the group is the worst nightmare. So I am regularly torn between my need for power, responsibilities which pushes me towards the hyper-responsable (authoritarian) persona, and the rejection of "social submission" which pushes me towards the second (Irresponsible), even if I believe that it makes me globally unhappy because of passivity.
Overall it is the second which permeates me, and the first which is projected.

 

Sorry i didn't pay for a consultation lol, i just wanted to share how it works for me, hot.

Ps : The "sorry" is motivated by the "authoritarian" persona, the "lol" is the reaction of the second 

Thank you for sharing this. I'm trying to get a clear sense for what draws people into the far right on a psychological level. And this touches on the allure of the aesthetics of the idealized Fascist persona as well as the insecurities that make that persona have that aesthetic appeal and feel like a solution.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Thank you for sharing this. I'm trying to get a clear sense for what draws people into the far right on a psychological level. And this touches on the allure of the aesthetics of the idealized Fascist persona as well as the insecurities that make that persona have that aesthetic appeal and feel like a solution.

The devil cannot stand the light and the love, so he doubles down on devilish domination.

Fundamentally a dense ego cannot stand pure love. A dense ego is too wounded, hurt, bitter, angry, vengeful, arrogant, ignorant, combative, closedminded, insecure, greedy, lustful, etc.

The devil would rather rule in Hell than bow to Love.

Edited November 15 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A dense ego is too wounded, hurt, bitter, angry, vengeful, arrogant, ignorant, combative, closedminded, insecure, greedy, lustful, etc.

Damn! Must be pretty lonely at the bottom.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Damn! Must be pretty lonely at the bottom.

Hurt people hurt people.

Those who know no love will make it their life purpose to deny others love.

Edited November 15 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Hurt people hurt people.

Yeah! That's usually the case. When I realized this I stopped taking things personally (most times). Hard to hold a grudge when you know this.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

Would you live in the street for a year or let live 100 migrants instead and keep your comfort.

Wanting money is the very root of egoism.

The only non egoic people are in the street. 

Bunch of previligied people wake up in the morning pulling the heater.

Let's be kind and share. 

Until reality knock and you get surprised by becoming Hitler.

What we have is the result of theft.

This choice is not hypothetical

Your very life sustain on the trade off of letting others you don't know in misery.

I could turn any liberal into a worst vision of Hitler. 

The more someone use words or talk is the best indicator of the full of shitness you inhabits.

You wouldn't kill your all family and friends and all the people you interacted with for all the life of all the people in Congo. Don't talk about love you're just an egoic monster yourself, everyone is an unconscious fascists. That's how it work. Creating enemies, in true love there is no enemies. Everyone is a monster and it's fine because that's how it is.

No one is kind or evil. It's all based on conditions and temporary half deluded observations.

I really think if you're good it's only because you tolerate for instance that your very society keep murdering and killing for you. And you won't do shit about it. Because you love what your society gives. 

Passivity against 'evil' in that sense is the same as murdering people yourself. 

But the ego will trick to say. No no I don't kill people. 

If you Americans for instance you are responsible for all the death done by the military. 

Do more shadow works, it's all talk and no walk so far.

But it's fine you can't help yourself imagining evil.

First thing you'll do is to tell that I m projecting because you're incapable of facing the Truth.

Edited November 15 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Emerald]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The devil cannot stand the light and the love, so he doubles down on devilish domination.

Fundamentally a dense ego cannot stand pure love. A dense ego is too wounded, hurt, bitter, angry, vengeful, arrogant, ignorant, combative, closedminded, insecure, greedy, lustful, etc.

The devil would rather rule in Hell than bow to Love.

Be careful in labeling people as the devil... especially when it comes to collective patterns like Fascism.

Calling something evil or devilish causes misdiagnoses of more nuanced emotional/psychological problems and causes us to fight the fever (aka the devilishness) and not the germ (aka basic human vulnerability)... and it can make us overlook the ways that we too are afflicted by the germ.

So, throwing the label devil around is ineffective, counter-productive, and dangerous because it obscures the real root causes and makes us unconscious to our own devilishness.

Make no mistake. Fascism is a common human problem that ALL people are susceptible to in varying degrees. And we don't need to be especially evil or devilish to fall into these patterns. 

It's just like how ants can get into a death spiral under certain conditions. Fascism is our version of the death spiral. And it's an unfortunately common issue.

When we label somebody as devilish, we begin to think "That person is devilish and stupid. That's why they became a Fascist. But I am neither devilish nor stupid. So, I would never become a Fascist."

And that's precisely how the devil gets you... when you're pointing out the devil in the other.

The thing to realize is that you yourself could fall into this pattern or a litany of other patterns of 'evil'. That's a core human vulnerability that we all have.

And in the moment we begin to think we're impervious to it, that is the VERY moment we become the most vulnerable to it.

In fact, I'd wager that you likely share many of the same values as the client I mentioned in the post and likely have some degree of the 'victim's mentality' suppression pattern because you tend to value hard work, personal responsibility, and stoicism. And this ended up being the root cause that's caused these scapegoating tendencies to arise as he wasn't giving himself any self-compassion.

And what's interesting about the client I mentioned in the post is that he's very introspective and intelligent. And he is one of the best clients to work with because he is way better than average at humbling himself and challenging himself to look at uncomfortable truths and admitting his flaws to himself. And he's also a genuinely kind person who is always trying to help others.

Even just the fact that he was able to spot this pattern in himself, admit it to himself without rationalizing it away, and recognize it as a problem... and he was open enough to lay it out on the table as a problem to be explored shows that he's leagues ahead of that majority of people who are swept up in the same collective whirlpool current towards Fascism.

It is difficult to lay aside the identity of goodness and admit one's devilishness to one's self. But that is what Shadow Work requires.

You must out yourself as the devil in your own eyes. And that makes you less devilish by shining the flashlight on the inner devil.

And that he (of all people) is falling into this Fascist pattern despite consciously disliking this pattern, shows me just how vulnerable and susceptible most people can be to Fascist thinking, especially in today's political climate.

But the two reasons these patterns were coming up was because of the pull towards social conformity (as he is around a lot of young men who are consuming a pretty steady diet of right wing media)... but even moreso that he is so disgusted by victim's mentality that he never lets himself "play the victim" even when he is vulnerable and needs help.

So, having these emotional hate urges to scapegoat certain people for "playing the victim", is the only outlet he himself has for allowing himself to complain and "play the victim" because he has repressed and cut away any and all higher expressions of self-advocacy, expression of vulnerability, being cared for, and getting sympathy.

And he is able to project his own repressed inner-victim onto others to rid himself of it, while simultaneously being unconsciously wrapped up in victim's mentality.

So, all it really takes in this case to have a Fascist pattern start to arise (even if you consciously disagree with Fascist thinking) is to overdo it on the stoicism and self-discipline... and deny yourself empathy, sympathy, help, kindness, and care.

You'll start feeling resentful towards anyone advocating for human rights because you feel like you have to earn everything to treat yourself with kindness and be treated with kindness. 

[Leo Gura]

The answer to your concern is very simple:

All humans are evil.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

I think if you love Japan you're fascist.

There is no others country that has more of a fascist vibe.

If you idealize or think anything good about Japan you have fascist tendencies.

 

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Leo Gura thanks. 

I m so hyped for your game. Think you're on your best new arc. With IA you can put down a lot on the missing part.

If you need a designer or something related art work let's dm would be my pleasure I got some time.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The answer to your concern is very simple:

All humans are evil.

This is a misdiagnosis that leads us in the opposite direction of deeper levels of consciousness.

When we label human beings as evil, we are papering over the real deep truth. And we end up adding to the evils of the world, because we become ignorant and encourage ignorance in others.

I have several Ayahuasca experiences where I was taught the problem of labelling others as evil. I'll share them below...

--

One of the experiences was of showing me all the collective hatred patterning between men and women... which then morphed into an experience of all the shame and hatred towards people of different races and ethnicities.

And it became clear as day that underneath the hatred of the most misanthropic person, there was a deep desire to love and be loved. And I saw that there was a deep wish for oneness and friendship underneath all the hatred.

And it was clear that any and all expression of human hatred were coming from ignorance, trauma, unmet needs, and other patterns that fragment our underlying nature.

So, it was only in our human vulnerability that we get cut off from our fundamentally loving nature.... including in the worst expressions of humanity.

---

Another experience was when I clicked into Christ Consciousness.

And I developed such a deep understanding that Truth and Love was revealed to me as one and the same. And when you discover that Truth is Love and Love is Truth, this is when all judgments drop away and unconditional compassion towards all arises.

And in that unconditional compassion unclouded by the ignorance of judgment, I could see an accurate diagnosis of all apparent evil and so many solutions became evident.

And I saw the ignorance of that labelling actions as evil, only obscured the accurate diagnoses and perpetuated the problem of evil.

---

In yet another Ayahuasca experience, I was Emerald and God at once.

And Emerald was sitting on the mat in the ceremony space... and God was sitting in the same position superimposed in the same space... which was a more universal space. And it was one and the same with no distinction.

And I looked down into my lap, and there was a large stack of see-through holographic papers. The stack was probably about a foot high, and they were 8.5 by 11.

And when Emerald/God would look down at the see-through papers, there was a special handwritten language that I knew but had never seen before. And the pages were all filled up with these familiar but unfamiliar characters. It kind of looked like every page had been written on with iridescent gel pens.

And as people I know in life would come to my mind, I would look down at the papers and know in an instant all things about their life's story... even small seemingly insignificant gestures. Though I don't remember any specific details about this, I know that I went through 4 or 5 people's life story in a few minutes.

And my dad came to mind, and looking at the front of these see-through papers, I suddenly knew everything there was to know about my dad and why he is the way that he is... the positive and the negative. And in that brief moment of knowing, there was such a profound gratitude that I/God have gotten to experience him as my dad. Like God was really appreciating being able to experience being raised as his daughter, and so was I.

Then, Emerald/God tilted the stack of holographic papers so that I could see the edge of the pages and not the front. 

And when I tilted the holographic papers to the side, I saw that some of the letters in the book had gotten knocked out of alignment. And it was very visually evident from the edge of the pages... but not when I looked at the see-through stack from the front.

When, I saw the seethrough stack from the front, it showed me the totality of a person's personality and lived experience.

And when I saw the see-through stack from the side, it showed me only the things that were negative and had gone out of alignment.

And in looking at my dad's negative patterns, I suddenly realized that it was time to purge these patterns I just saw and processed from my dad's side of the family.

And I purged into the bucket. And the purge was like a dark black void that I looked at and saw that I had let go of some darkness that I wasn't previously aware of on my dad's side of the family. (Afterward, there were three deaths on my dad's side... my grandma died a week later, my cousin died 2-3 weeks later, and my uncle died 8 months later. This is just a side note. I just find it interesting that my purge coincided with a lot of loss on that side of the family.)

But my main takeaway from this is that you can always find those out-of-alignment patterns that have caused a person to become "evil"... or any other kind of negative pattern. And when we label a person as evil, we become ignorant because we have put blinders on to our experience of truth and love... which are one and the same.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

Would you live in the street for a year or let live 100 migrants instead and keep your comfort.

Wanting money is the very root of egoism.

The only non egoic people are in the street. 

Bunch of previligied people wake up in the morning pulling the heater.

Let's be kind and share. 

Until reality knock and you get surprised by becoming Hitler.

What we have is the result of theft.

This choice is not hypothetical

Your very life sustain on the trade off of letting others you don't know in misery.

I could turn any liberal into a worst vision of Hitler. 

The more someone use words or talk is the best indicator of the full of shitness you inhabits.

You wouldn't kill your all family and friends and all the people you interacted with for all the life of all the people in Congo. Don't talk about love you're just an egoic monster yourself, everyone is an unconscious fascists. That's how it work. Creating enemies, in true love there is no enemies. Everyone is a monster and it's fine because that's how it is.

No one is kind or evil. It's all based on conditions and temporary half deluded observations.

I really think if you're good it's only because you tolerate for instance that your very society keep murdering and killing for you. And you won't do shit about it. Because you love what your society gives. 

Passivity against 'evil' in that sense is the same as murdering people yourself. 

But the ego will trick to say. No no I don't kill people. 

If you Americans for instance you are responsible for all the death done by the military. 

Do more shadow works, it's all talk and no walk so far.

But it's fine you can't help yourself imagining evil.

First thing you'll do is to tell that I m projecting because you're incapable of facing the Truth.

These certainly are human patterns. And if the rubber meets the road, we are very unlikely to sacrifice our family's lives or our lives in some hypothetical scenario where we can trade it for a better life for more people.

But in these hypothetical circumstances, the stakes would be real... not imagined like they are with Fascist ways of thinking.

These would be really difficult trolley problems that would not actually arise as an opportunity to choose in real life... that if we did somehow get the choice of "kill your own child to save 100 children in the Congo." or "Go homeless forever, and these 100 immigrants are guaranteed to be housed."

That just wouldn't happen in real life.

So, these deal with basic human survival. And we wouldn't be faced with these kinds of scenarios. But if we were, every single person would struggle because we're not equipped to have that much power over who suffers or doesn't and who lives and dies.

However, Fascism (while operating off of the same survival impulse) is quite different. And that's because Fascism sets up a series of false trolley problems that don't play out logically.

The Fascist thinks "My life would get better if I kicked all the immigrants out of my country and gay people didn't exist and Jewish people were put into work camps."

The Fascist sees the world as a series of zero sum games and trolley problems, when all of these grievances don't have real stakes. And none of their Fascist tendencies actually benefit their survival or make their lives better.

So, the dynamics you mentioned are really just basic human survival instincts and self-preservation. It's only when this survival impulse gets subsumed into the tendency towards scapegoating and zero sum games in situations that need not be a zero sum game that you get Fascism.

 

[AerisVahnEphelia]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

These certainly are human patterns. And if the rubber meets the road, we are very unlikely to sacrifice our family's lives or our lives in some hypothetical scenario where we can trade it for a better life for more people.

But in these hypothetical circumstances, the stakes would be real... not imagined like they are with Fascist ways of thinking.

These would be really difficult trolley problems that would not actually arise as an opportunity to choose in real life... that if we did somehow get the choice of "kill your own child to save 100 children in the Congo." or "Go homeless forever, and these 100 immigrants are guaranteed to be housed."

That just wouldn't happen in real life.

So, these deal with basic human survival. And we wouldn't be faced with these kinds of scenarios. But if we were, every single person would struggle because we're not equipped to have that much power over who suffers or doesn't and who lives and dies.

However, Fascism (while operating off of the same survival impulse) is quite different. And that's because Fascism sets up a series of false trolley problems that don't play out logically.

The Fascist thinks "My life would get better if I kicked all the immigrants out of my country and gay people didn't exist and Jewish people were put into work camps."

The Fascist sees the world as a series of zero sum games and trolley problems, when all of these grievances don't have real stakes. And none of their Fascist tendencies actually benefit their survival or make their lives better.

So, the dynamics you mentioned are really just basic human survival instincts and self-preservation. It's only when this survival impulse gets subsumed into the tendency towards scapegoating and zero sum games in situations that need not be a zero sum game that you get Fascism.

 

You wanted to understand I just explained it to you.

It's not hypothetical that if I put you in a cage with 3 crocodiles your chances to finish as a meal increase.

You can think that with more love crocodile might become vegans but good luck with that.

If you think that you know better than a fascist it means you operate from a frame that assume a superior logic.

So as a holder of a superior thing. People who don't hold it are inferiors.

As such your life is more valuable than say 100 Africans child. 

I m describing your belief you're convinced to know better. That's why you think you have client you can improve and turn better. 

What if you are in fact teaching them to be eaten by crocodile.

You can't tell. Unless you're objectively certain to be superior in this case. What's different here from the fascist mindset. 

The degree of violence ? 

That's relative right ? All humans lives are equals. Or are they ? 

Fascism is just the belief in certain things to be superior. 

As such they shall conquer and survive over things deemed inferiors.

You just twisting your mind to keep surviving.

Edited November 15 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Bobby_2021]

5 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

I think if you love Japan you're fascist.

There is no others country that has more of a fascist vibe.

If you idealize or think anything good about Japan you have fascist tendencies.

 

Fact

[Schizophonia]

6 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

I think if you love Japan you're fascist.

There is no others country that has more of a fascist vibe.

If you idealize or think anything good about Japan you have fascist tendencies.

 

So, then will you move to Thailand eheh.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Schizophonia i shall have precised in country considered democracy. 

 

[Terell Kirby]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The answer to your concern is very simple:

All humans are evil.

This has become more apparent to me in the past weeks with everything going on in politics. It’s been difficult to accept and come to terms with the evils of humanity.

Through some deep suffering of my own, I’ve come to grips with the fact that to be human IS to be evil. Devilry, ego, bias and selfishness is baked into DNA-it all serves our survival needs. Some humans are more evil than others, not on moral grounds but on level of crudeness in how they go about surviving. Yet as long as our Consciousness is in human form-we’ll always be somewhere on the evil spectrum.

What’s give me some solace is a reframe when it comes to my own personal development. The goal was never to cease being evil, but pushing to become less evil each and every day-well knowing that I can’t ever fully escape it in human form. I can also make genuine attempts accept human devilry as part of God’s creation (with Love).

Edited November 15 by Terell Kirby