Trump won, ha ha

[mr_engineer]

Maybe identity-politics wasn't such a good idea after all, for the left. When you side with the minorities so much that you demonize the majority, the majority will vote you out! 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

@Princess Arabia @Buck Edwards The shame-tactics that you're currently using, have literally cost yall this election. So, if you think your behavior didn't have consequences, you're wrong. 

This is a very reductive take. People on the right are always shaming people on the left. But that's not the reason why Biden won in 2020. And even if people on the left are shaming people on the right, that's not why Trump won.

Fascism is just rising everywhere in developed nations... not just the United States. 

And there are deeper macrocosmic dynamics that have so much more to do with economics and new technology giving so many people access to far right propaganda that promises to solve their economic issues by kicking out immigrants and sticking it to ____ group. 

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald Look, Donald Trump won. The same Donald Trump who won in 2016, won again. After we've seen him in office for 4 years, we just couldn't get enough of him! 

And, we either get to bitch and moan about this and blame the 'fascists out there' or we get to take responsibility for the situation and see what part we played in this. 

I can understand the blame-game after 2016. But, it's been 8 years since then. Surely, 8 years have to be enough time to see how the social dynamics played out and how Trump capitalized on that, don't you think?! 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Look, Donald Trump won. The same Donald Trump who won in 2016, won again. After we've seen him in office for 4 years, we just couldn't get enough of him! 

And, we either get to bitch and moan about this and blame the 'fascists out there' or we get to take responsibility for the situation and see what part we played in this. 

I can understand the blame-game after 2016. But, it's been 8 years since then. Surely, 8 years have to be enough time to see how the social dynamics played out and how Trump capitalized on that, don't you think?! 

You didn't even read my last post did you?

I'm saying that Trump didn't win because of lefties shaming people. That's not what wins and loses elections.

And when I say that Fascism is rising all over the world, it's not me pointing the finger at the Fascist other.

And I'm not shaming anyone as that's not productive. I'm being almost clinical in my labelling of Fascism because I see that any and all human beings (without exception) can fall into and be weaponized into Fascism and authoritarian thinking more generally.

What I'm saying is that Fascism is part of who we are as a nation and as a species when certain conditions are in place. We're incredibly vulnerable to falling into Fascistic patterns, just like ants can end up in a death spiral in certain conditions.

And until we recognize this about ourselves as individuals and as a collective, Fascism will always re-arise and we'll repeat the same patterns again and again.

And a big part of this is that most people don't want to face with their own Fascist impulses. We want to think "Only the bad people become Fascists. But I'm a good person, so of course I'm not a Fascist."

So, we deny it to ourselves and hyper-identify with goodness because we would feel ashamed of ourselves if we saw our own Fascism.

And then, when a demagogue comes and lights a spark to the repressed dormant kerosene of Fascism in us all... people just find themselves magnetized to him because he's giving permission for those repressed Fascistic impulses to come up.

Trump is very aware of this. So, he knows that Fascist rhetoric is a winning message. That's why he brought out all the Fascist rhetoric so close to Election Day. That's why he had that rally with all the anti-immigrant sentiments so close to election day.

Trump knows that Fascism is a winner.

And people who are on the left are generally clueless about this deep seated Fascist impulse in humanity. And so, they keep trying to say "Don't vote for Trump. He's a Fascist."

But it's important to recognize that deep down, everyone already knows that. And that's an advertisement for Trump for so many people... not a warning. It's a hard pill to swallow about so many in humanity. But the sooner we realize that and the vulnerabilities that Fascism comes from, the sooner we can truly grow past our Fascistic patterns to ones that are more reflective of species-unity.

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald Why didn't he win in 2020, then?! 

As I said, your argument would make sense in 2016. I thought the exact same thing in 2016, if I'm honest. But, after seeing that he is beatable, cuz he did lose in 2020, does it really make sense to play the victim to 'the fascists' after losing to him in 2024?! 

Edited November 10 by mr_engineer

[Ulax]

I dunno from what I’m seeing the key reason trump won was because of high inflation. Which many blamed on the current presidential party. And the idea that Harris wasn’t seen as a candidate that could enact necessary change.

[Buck Edwards]

Trump mainly won  because of the inflation that was blamed on Biden who helplessly imported it from Trump's wrecked economic management from 2016 where he ruined a good economy that in turn was imported from Obama. Trump taking credit for Obama's hard work. 

Edited November 10 by Buck Edwards

[Princess Arabia]

15 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Trump mainly won  because of the inflation that was blamed on Biden who helplessly imported it from Trump's wrecked economic management from 2016 where he ruined a good economy that in turn was imported from Obama. Trump taking credit for Obama's hard work. 

Most times this is what happens. The current President takes credit or gets blamed for the previous one that was in office. People don't realize this and they think it's the current President's work. 

[Princess Arabia]

Sometimes a team may win a competition not because they're so great but because the other team screwed up.

[Princess Arabia]

Now Trump is talking about the government recognizing only male and female genders. He says God created only two genders. He hasn't even been sworn in yet but already trying to dictate. Umph....

[numbersinarow]

14 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

 

Trump said Israel wants to keep going and Hamas wants peace.

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Why didn't he win in 2020, then?! 

As I said, your argument would make sense in 2016. I thought the exact same thing in 2016, if I'm honest. But, after seeing that he is beatable, cuz he did lose in 2020, does it really make sense to play the victim to 'the fascists' after losing to him in 2024?! 

Fascism didn't break through in 2020... likely for a variety of different factors. But it's been very close to breaking through for nearly a decade, all over the world. 

But I think the issue is mostly an economic one as that is what tends to lead to Fascism.... and authoritarianism of any stripe really. But because there is no left wing options that are widely known, the authoritarianism that was chosen was a Fascist authoritarianism.

And so many people associate Republicans with a better economy, even though job growth is historically significantly better under Democrats by a large margin.

The issue really is that Democrats don't have effective messaging, while Republics (especially Trump) do.

Democrats might have better policies that will lead to slight but genuine improvements in people finances.

But they lack a compelling narrative. So, the average person is unaware of their policies despite (in recent polls) Kamala's policies being ranked as far more popular than Trump's policies by 80% of American people when people were polled but not told whose policies were whose.

So, it isn't policies but the narrative.

And Trump's narrative is, "Everything is economically terrible. But I'm going to fix it and Make America Great Again. It's all the leftists, immigrants, and trans people's fault because they are poisoning the blood of our nation. I'll make them pay for the problems they have caused you, and you will get your revenge. And I will get rid of them and fix it."

While Kamala's narrative is, "We're not going back!" And this is a promise to protect social freedoms, which is a winning message for those who are already aware enough of history and collective human patterns to understand that Trump's narrative is Fascist and historically leads to worse conditions for 99% of people.

But for the majority of Americans, they don't get that. They don't realize that they will be on the chopping block... not just the people they feel 'deserve' the crackdown. 

But they do understand, "You're being treated unfairly, and immigrants are getting all the benefits that you would have otherwise gotten. If I'm elected, I'll make them pay."

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald It is the messaging that gets the votes, though. And, the messaging has always been awful from the left, ever since 2016. They only focused on getting votes from women and minorities. This is what we call 'identity-politics'. And it's a quick but long-term risky strategy to get votes. Didn't work in 2016 for Hilary. Then, Biden won not because of identity-politics, but because he's worked in politics for 50 years. Then, Kamala also relied on identity-politics.

All Trump had to do was to play to his strengths on the identity-politics front. He focused on appealing to the straight white young man in the last few months of his campaign by appearing on Joe Rogan. Honestly, for decades, no political figure has been talking to this demographic.

The progressives have hated on men for so long, they don't even know how to appeal to men while hiding it. Kamala had some campaign ads in which there was talk about 'I'm a man's man and I love women, I'm man enough to support a woman in office'. Lol. They cannot even talk to men without preaching masculinity. So, men took the opportunity to vote them out. 

Edited November 11 by mr_engineer

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald It is the messaging that gets the votes, though. And, the messaging has always been awful from the left, ever since 2016. They only focused on getting votes from women and minorities. This is what we call 'identity-politics'. And it's a quick but long-term risky strategy to get votes. Didn't work in 2016 for Hilary. Then, Biden won not because of identity-politics, but because he's worked in politics for 50 years. Then, Kamala also relied on identity-politics.

All Trump had to do was to play to his strengths on the identity-politics front. He focused on appealing to the straight white young man in the last few months of his campaign by appearing on Joe Rogan. Honestly, for decades, no political figure has been talking to this demographic.

The progressives have hated on men for so long, they don't even know how to appeal to men while hiding it. Kamala had some campaign ads in which there was talk about 'I'm a man's man and I love women, I'm man enough to support a woman in office'. Lol. They cannot even talk to men without preaching masculinity. So, men took the opportunity to vote them out. 

Men technically didn't vote her out.

Donald Trump sustained about the same numbers from 2020 (74,223,975 in 2020 vs 74,831,719 in 2024), while Kamala just failed to excite her base and under-performed Biden's 2020 numbers.

That said, it was mostly left leaning suburban white men who stayed home... probably because they didn't feel like Trump was that much of a threat to them AND because Kamala is just your run of the mill establishment Democrat.

Also, they might have felt more identification with Biden because he's a white guy, while Kamala is a black woman. So, they might not have been as energized to elect someone of a different race and gender to them.

Plus, all across the world EVERY SINGLE incumbent party declined because of inflation. I see this as the biggest reason that depressed the Democratic vote.

Also, Kamala didn't engage in identity politics at all.

Hilary leaned into identity politics in 2016 without giving a strong populist message, which made her campaign particularly weak because her slogan was "I'm with her". And she didn't have much focus on bread and butter issues. And she thought it was enough to get to the White House to skate in on the idea of being the first female president.

But Kamala didn't do ANY identity politics at all because she was intelligent and avoiding a Hilary situation. Whenever Trump tried to bait her into talking about race, she'd just dismiss it and say "Same old show."

And she didn't talk anything about gender either. She deliberately avoided identity politics altogether.

Her message was one of general unity and the idea of "not going back" while also talking about her policies for gradual improvement like a child tax credit, adding home care to medicare, $25,000 for first time home buyers, etc.

But it didn't really matter. Because she's a black woman, most people just assumed she was running on identity politics because people will project what they think is there.

It was really Donald Trump who was doing all the identity politics... while male identity politics. And that sustained Donald Trump's numbers from 2020. And it made him a darling of the male identity podcast circuit.

But I disagree that no one has been catering to that demographic. Trump and Republicans have been leaning into white male identity politics heavily and overtly since 2016... and subtly before that. And the MOST popular podcasts and YouTube channels are all about putting the male identity up on a pedestal. It's literally everywhere to where I even get served a bunch of male identity politics stuff despite my political viewing habits being decisively on the left. 

And Trump's campaign was hyper-focused on race, ethnicity, gender, and calling anyone who wasn't a white male a DEI hire.

So, the lesson is that identity politics IS a winner... as long as you cater your identity politics to white men. And this has, of course, always been the case. It is nothing new.

White male identity politics has always been super popular. That's why most people get upset when anyone else tries to do identity politics because male identity politics is the default and everything else an aberration. 

[Buck Edwards]

17 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And Trump's campaign was hyper-focused on race, ethnicity, gender, and calling anyone who wasn't a white male a DEI hire.

So, the lesson is that identity politics IS a winner... as long as you cater your identity politics to white men. And this has, of course, always been the case. It is nothing new.

White male identity politics has always been super popular. That's why most people get upset when anyone else tries to do identity politics because male identity politics is the default and everything else an aberration. 

Thank you for saying this. 

[mr_engineer]

46 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But I disagree that no one has been catering to that demographic. Trump and Republicans have been leaning into white male identity politics heavily and overtly since 2016... and subtly before that. And the MOST popular podcasts and YouTube channels are all about putting the male identity up on a pedestal. It's literally everywhere to where I even get served a bunch of male identity politics stuff despite my political viewing habits being decisively on the left. 

I didn't consider Trump as a legitimate political figure, because I agree with Leo that he is a conman. (The ha ha in the title isn't out of happiness, it's me laughing at progressives because they learned nothing from the loss in 2016) And, podcasters and YouTube channels are alt-media. The actually serious politicians and the mainstream-media have not been talking to white men at all. All they've done is demonize them. 

I guess this 2024 election was a W for the alt-media over the mainstream media. I personally like that, given how corrupt the mainstream media is vs the fact that alt-media is not politically funded. As someone who's seen the corruptions of the scientific-establishment first-hand, I'm more than willing to believe that journalism is even more corrupt. 

46 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And Trump's campaign was hyper-focused on race, ethnicity, gender, and calling anyone who wasn't a white male a DEI hire.

So, the lesson is that identity politics IS a winner... as long as you cater your identity politics to white men. And this has, of course, always been the case. It is nothing new.

White male identity politics has always been super popular. That's why most people get upset when anyone else tries to do identity politics because male identity politics is the default and everything else an aberration. 

Well, yeah. This is not a bug, though, it's a feature. Why haven't the left been talking to white men, then?! Why hasn't their vision for a better future included white men?! 

Edited November 11 by mr_engineer

[Jacob Morres]

15 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

that alt-media is not politically funded

Elon musk has an intense desire to destroy "wokeness" (self stated).

X is propoganda *machine*. It's extremely biased. Don't let him fool you 

Edited November 11 by Jacob Morres

[mr_engineer]

Just now, Jacob Morres said:

Elon musk has an intense desire to destroy "wokeness". X is a propoganda *machine* 

Does he have ToS in which he censors 'wokeness'? The way YouTube and Facebook censor Trump? 

[Jacob Morres]

@mr_engineer thats not what i was getting to though. I'm talking about the propoganda that he spreads through the platform is intense

In terms of censorship I don't know. I've heard some things he does censor but I don't remember fully id gotta research 

Edited November 11 by Jacob Morres

[mr_engineer]

5 minutes ago, Jacob Morres said:

@mr_engineer thats not what i was getting to though. I'm talking about the propoganda that he spreads through the platform is intense

In terms of censorship I don't know. I've heard some things he does censor 

I've seen leftists being able to engage in flame-wars very effectively with the right-wingers! (That's why I don't personally use X, lol. I know this cuz youtubers talk about twitter-battles in politics) I think it's always been like that, even though some may say it got worse due to Elon. 

He does believe in free speech, I'll give him that. This is just what happens when you allow it. 

Edited November 11 by mr_engineer