Now Aubrey Marcus … what is going on?!

[zazen]

@What Am I Your username asks What Am I - you have more zen than my username so you must be a Zazen practitioner!

I think a sense of superiority comes more natural to liberals as they tend to be college educated urbanites - so they have tangibles to go off of. Although some of what passes for education can be just accreditation and indoctrination.

The mix of self righteous karenism and detached constructionism are luxuries that ironically - can only be indulged due to a working class keeping the lights on and the oat lattes moving.

The ultimate irony is that progress, requires conserving foundational elements of a society such as safety and security. Progressivism should thank conservatism but mocks it instead.

 

Edited November 13 by zazen

[Scholar]

53 minutes ago, zazen said:

The reason the left may not learn from their mistakes is evident on this forum. Calling people kids, childish, brain rotten, neanderthal - for even trying to understand the other side or suggesting there are kernels of half truths with plenty of false truths attached to it.

Calling you guys neanderthals is an insult to neanderthals, as Spiritual correctly pointed out.

[What Am I]

10 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

I believe it has to do with the fact that we tend to paint the left as more emotional than the right, and somehow, this has brainwashed the left into believing it.

lol could be, interesting theory. As with any relationship, it's possible for one side to influence the other in unseen ways. Maybe the right is responsible for some of the left's behavior, and vice versa.

[Spiritual Warfare]

Just now, What Am I said:

lol could be, interesting theory. As with any relationship, it's possible for one side to influence the other in unseen ways. Maybe the right is responsible for some of the left's behavior, and vice versa.

God knows what else.

[What Am I]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

@What Am I Your username asks What Am I - you have more zen than my username so you must be a Zazen practitioner!

My practice is more mixed, but zen has had a large impact. Along with other sects of Buddhism and Hinduism, plus most of the esoteric traditions. Long live spiritual practice, brother!

23 minutes ago, zazen said:

I think a sense of superiority comes more natural to liberals as they tend to be college educated urbanites - so they have tangibles to go off of. Although some of what passes for education can be just accreditation and indoctrination.

The mix of self righteous karenism and detached constructionism are luxuries that ironically - can only be indulged due to a working class keeping the lights on and the oat lattes moving.

The ultimate irony is that progress, requires conserving foundational elements of a society such as safety and security. Progressivism should thank conservatism but mocks it instead.

I think there's some uncomfortable truths in here worth recognizing, even if it's likely not the whole story.

[What Am I]

22 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Calling you guys neanderthals is an insult to neanderthals, as Spiritual correctly pointed out.

I know that you in particular have the skills to make an excellent argument. It's probably just Destiny's influence, along with other drama-filled media, that triggers a very human impulse to stir shit up.

[Scholar]

19 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I know that you in particular have the skills to make an excellent argument. It's probably just Destiny's influence, along with other drama-filled media, that triggers a very human impulse to stir shit up.

The fundamental problem is that nobody has time to educate all of these people. It's impossible, low quality information is far easier to produce than what it takes to dismantle it.

[zurew]

There was only one person so far who tried to defend Trump and Trump supporters in a way, where he actually tried to engage with the substance. That guy is @QandC.

There wasn't a single other guy who managed not to just grab links and to give sources but also to try to engage with the substance that was mentioned in those sources. 

I think he wasn't successful and I think he tried to do the impossible there , because he took on a position thats close to impossible to defend, but he actually engaged with what I said and with what I brought and he brought facts as well.

Its incredible that the quality of discourse on this forum is lightyears away  from the quality I had with @QandC and I wouldn't even consider that high level, but it was a definitely an above average debate (unfortunately it should be considered above average , given the incredibly low standard we have here).

 

 

When you push someone on this forum for sources, they get triggered. Most of the people are not even read into the things they try to argue about , and they get surprised when they get called out for being motivated reasoners and for trying to argue about things they have 0 clue about.

The fact that some of you get triggered when someone asks for a source or when someone press you on the claims you make says everything about you. It shouldnt be a problem for you to say "I cant substantiate this claim of mine" or to say "I dont have any source for this, this is just my assumption" if you are honest, but if you are dishonest - then of course you are going to be triggered and wont be honest about your level of knowledge and about your intentions.

I don't know how you guys expect us to have quality discourse or debate,  if you just allow everyone to baselessly make any claim and to infinitely gibberate about random shit without being able to actually deliver a sound argument or without being able to substantiate anything . If you want to have quality discourse - then you need to wake up to reality, and actually be ready to defend the claims you make or just be honest about what you know about and what you base your argument or claim on.

 

Ask yourself these questions before you open your mouth:

1) Can I make an argument that Im willing to defend with sources and with other arguments (where I can actually substantiate my claims)?

2) Can I actually engage in a substantial way with the claims or with the argument that the other guy made (Is there a clear value disagreement that I can push on, or is there a logical problem that I can point out or is there a problem about facts) 

3) Am I actually read up on the things I try to argue against or I have 0 fucking clue about the surrounding facts ?

If the answer is 'no' to all of those questions, then I don't know how you expect us or anyone having a good quality debate or convo with you. And I don't see how you get surprised when people use harsh rhetoric against you, when you are a motivated reasoner and when you are being dishonest about your level knowledge and you just waste people's time.

Edited November 13 by zurew

[Consept]

57 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

I believe it has to do with the fact that we tend to paint the left as more emotional than the right, and somehow, this has brainwashed the left into believing it. It becomes a pattern, and it starts to shape their reality in how they express themselves. Never underestimate the power of brainwashing; it’s a very powerful thing. And of course, a brainwashed person can’t see that they are brainwashed. It would take a miracle for them to realize it.

I mean have we whitewashed the fact that when Trump lost in 2020, maga stormed the capitol and called for the hanging of Mike pence for certifying the election? Was that not an emotional reaction?

Or the constant name calling that Trump engages in calling any opponent some derogatory name which his followers take on. Or him labelling whole groups of people as criminals? 

This is the thing that I don't get is you might criticise the left for name calling, but it's not even in the same league as what Trump and his followers do. If the left did even a fraction of what the right do they would get a lot of flack for it. So my question is why is Trump judged very differently from the left?

[What Am I]

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

I mean have we whitewashed the fact that when Trump lost in 2020, maga stormed the capitol and called for the hanging of Mike pence for certifying the election? Was that not an emotional reaction?

Or the constant name calling that Trump engages in calling any opponent some derogatory name which his followers take on. Or him labelling whole groups of people as criminals? 

This is the thing that I don't get is you might criticise the left for name calling, but it's not even in the same league as what Trump and his followers do. If the left did even a fraction of what the right do they would get a lot of flack for it. So my question is why is Trump judged very differently from the left?

Personally, when I made my earlier comments, I was mostly comparing it to my own actions. It'd be really tough to argue the behavior of Trump and certain factions of his supporters.

Also though, if the left has such a dislike for Trump, why would they want to emulate him? Seems like a regrettable miscalculation.

[Spiritual Warfare]

10 minutes ago, Consept said:

I mean have we whitewashed the fact that when Trump lost in 2020, maga stormed the capitol and called for the hanging of Mike pence for certifying the election? Was that not an emotional reaction?

Or the constant name calling that Trump engages in calling any opponent some derogatory name which his followers take on. Or him labelling whole groups of people as criminals? 

This is the thing that I don't get is you might criticise the left for name calling, but it's not even in the same league as what Trump and his followers do. If the left did even a fraction of what the right do they would get a lot of flack for it. So my question is why is Trump judged very differently from the left?

When it comes to Trump and the Capitol riots, I’m not sure it’s the same thing. The anger on the right after the election was intense, but the storming of the Capitol was an attempt to overthrow the election results, which is a very different kind of emotional response. While both sides can be emotional, the way those emotions play out is very different. 

[Consept]

7 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Personally, when I made my earlier comments, I was mostly comparing it to my own actions. It'd be really tough to argue the behavior of Trump and certain factions of his supporters.

Also though, if the left has such a dislike for Trump, why would they want to emulate him? Seems like a regrettable miscalculation.

I'm not sure they do want to emulate him, but let's grant you that they've said something negative about Trump and his supporters, why is that scrutinised so harshly whereas Trump and maga engage in constant insults as well dangerous rhetoric and conspiracy theories. One example is people making jokes about Nancy Pelosis husband being attacked by a madman with a hammer and conspiracy theories about it being hos gay lover which obviously not true. 

Point being Trump and maga are not critiqued in the same way and it seems like they can get away with so much but the left say one thing out of turn and were saying they're brainwashed and emotional

13 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

When it comes to Trump and the Capitol riots, I’m not sure it’s the same thing. The anger on the right after the election was intense, but the storming of the Capitol was an attempt to overthrow the election results, which is a very different kind of emotional response. While both sides can be emotional, the way those emotions play out is very different. 

Yes it's a much more extreme emotional response that involved illegal activity and what I would consider brainwashing and/or delusion to do it in the first place. The comparison to an emotional response of some name calling from the right is nowhere near comparable, or am I missing something? If you were judging these things equally it wouldn't be a debate. 

[voxun]

3 hours ago, Joshe said:

You say he’s not a villain. Others say he is. Someone is very wrong. Who do you think it is? 

Here’s a quick heuristic for you to easily find the answer. How flawed have you noticed your own thinking throughout your life? Have you noticed you were wrong about many things? Have you been called wise, intelligent, and a good thinker by many? Would you say that you have high integrity? 

Now, realize this: how many intelligent, wise, and integrous people have you seen for Trump? 

My all-time favorite video from Leo is the one on self-bias. It’s like 3 hours long. Have you sat through it and wished you could see your selfishness and tried like hell to identify how you deceive yourself? If you do, you might find your position on Trump exists for reasons other than being founded on good sense-making. Are you ready to see what aspect of yourself you’re blindly serving? 

I actually found that my thinking was flawed many times troughout my life. I think introspection and contemplation is one of my strong points but I have a lot of flaws. 

You are flawed to. You clearly didn't read my post cause if you did you would have noticed that I never said he was not a vilain but that I don’t know if he is. In fact nobody knows, maybe even Trump doesn't know it. History is the thing that will reveal it. Until then enjoy the show. 😘

[Spiritual Warfare]

6 minutes ago, Consept said:

Yes it's a much more extreme emotional response that involved illegal activity and what I would consider brainwashing and/or delusion to do it in the first place. The comparison to an emotional response of some name calling from the right is nowhere near comparable, or am I missing something? If you were judging these things equally it wouldn't be a debate. 

I’ve never compared them equally, I’ve just pointed out that the left tends to be more emotional when it comes to discussions, debates, and certain issues. But my point is that emotions can drive extreme actions on both sides, even if they manifest differently. 

 

 

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

I’ve never compared them equally, I’ve just pointed out that the left tends to be more emotional when it comes to discussions, debates, and certain issues. But my point is that emotions can drive extreme actions on both sides, even if they manifest differently. 

 

 

It seems as though you're presenting the left as worse by stating they're brainwashed and react emotionally, you didn't feel the need to state this about the right. Although maybe you did previously I don't know. 

But from my perspective the fact that we've seen the real world action of the storming of the capitol by the right because of a delusion and misinformation, of which they still don't acknowledge wrong doing. I would say is much more problematic and detrimental to discourse than apparent name calling from the left. Also if we accept that they shouldn't have stormed the capitol and that they were brainwashed into doing it and still haven't admitted fault, wouldn't name calling be a somewhat subdued response to such insane behaviour. It seems that there's a way higher expectation for civility put on the left over the right. 

[Spiritual Warfare]

1 minute ago, Consept said:

It seems as though you're presenting the left as worse by stating they're brainwashed and react emotionally, you didn't feel the need to state this about the right. Although maybe you did previously I don't know. 

But from my perspective the fact that we've seen the real world action of the storming of the capitol by the right because of a delusion and misinformation, of which they still don't acknowledge wrong doing. I would say is much more problematic and detrimental to discourse than apparent name calling from the left. Also if we accept that they shouldn't have stormed the capitol and that they were brainwashed into doing it and still haven't admitted fault, wouldn't name calling be a somewhat subdued response to such insane behaviour. It seems that there's a way higher expectation for civility put on the left over the right. 

You’re talking about a specific day, but that’s no excuse for why we on the right can’t call out the left for their childish behavior. Their emotional responses are about all sorts of things, and this should be called out, even if we on the right have made mistakes as well. 

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

You’re talking about a specific day, but that’s no excuse for why we on the right can’t call out the left for their childish behavior. Their emotional responses are about all sorts of things, and this should be called out, even if we on the right have made mistakes as well. 

I'm talking about one specific day because it was insane, but there was no backing off that point of the election being stolen, people still believe that, the only reason why it's calmed down is because Trump has won but if he hadn't won everyone would've said it was rigged again. 

Aside from that how many lies about immigrants all being criminals or eating pets or rumours like Michelle Obama being a man or barrack not being born in the US, have been constantly been protected out of the right? It's constant nonsense which obviously inflames the political environment, probably purposefully to inflame it. So this argument where the dems act emotionally and that it's even slightly comparable to the right is way off. 

Today Biden invited Trump to sit down at the White house even though he side lost, if it went the other way do you really think Trump would do that and not have an emotional tantrum?

[Spiritual Warfare]

11 minutes ago, Consept said:

I'm talking about one specific day because it was insane, but there was no backing off that point of the election being stolen, people still believe that, the only reason why it's calmed down is because Trump has won but if he hadn't won everyone would've said it was rigged again. 

Aside from that how many lies about immigrants all being criminals or eating pets or rumours like Michelle Obama being a man or barrack not being born in the US, have been constantly been protected out of the right? It's constant nonsense which obviously inflames the political environment, probably purposefully to inflame it. So this argument where the dems act emotionally and that it's even slightly comparable to the right is way off. 

Today Biden invited Trump to sit down at the White house even though he side lost, if it went the other way do you really think Trump would do that and not have an emotional tantrum?

No one is saying that all immigrants are criminals, but the majority are. The part about Trump’s invitation is purely speculative. Even if Trump were to behave in an uncontrolled manner, it wouldn’t matter much to the majority of his supporters because you can’t judge everyone’s actions based on one person’s mistakes. Don’t generalize and assume that everyone will handle things the same way because of one individual’s behavior.

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

No one is saying that all immigrants are criminals, but the majority are.

Is this your belief? This could be a good issue to prove my point. My contention would be you believe most immigrants are criminals because of hateful rhetoric that youve heard, to the point where you truly believe something is true that casts a terrible light on a group of people. What percentage of criminals do you think are criminals and do you have evidence or statistics that can confirm most immigrants are criminals? 

[Joshe]

@Consept It's interesting. I knew this degree of ignorance existed since I was young and I always struggled with accepting that the vast majority reject reality to serve one's positions grounded in self-service and blind emotion.

It's always been there but now has found a suitable host for expression.

If humanity makes it out of this mess, these people will be case studies for future generations. When studying evolution of human consciousness, they'll be featured in the chapter titled "The Nature of Ignorance" and in books about historical detriments to humanity, they will be featured in the chapter right after Hitler, and we will be the ones to assist in articulating what happened on the front lines. 

When they read this message, they will wholly misunderstand it. They'll think it's a smug self-righteous insult because they can do nothing but project what such words would mean if they came from their own mouths. 

On a long enough timeline, so long as their ignorance doesn't destroy humanity, our side wins. (by 'our side', they'll think I mean the left)

I sometimes wonder if I'm talking to bots or 17 year olds. Again, they'll think this is an insult because they think they know everything (like a 17 year old). They'll think that's an insult as well.