Now Aubrey Marcus … what is going on?!

[aurum]

Aubrey is being such a fool. The vaccine and anti-establishment nonsense destroyed this guy’s worldview.

[BlackPhil]

7 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@BlackPhil, you share Brand's video and call Vaush a lunatic!?

Yes, by listening to both of them it's clear that's the case.

I prefer to study both sides to avoid ending up in echo-chambers. I advice people do the same.

This whole division is caused by people only listening to their own side.

If you only listen to people like Vaush and corporate media it's no wonder you think Trump is Hitler. I would be scared too.

Edited November 9 by BlackPhil

[Emerald]

It's probably an expedient business decision for him, because he's a very Masculine guy who probably has a mostly male audience.

Plus, for a Spiral Dynamics perspective...

Most men who tend to strongly value Masculinity who have some Stage Yellow qualities tend to resist Stage Green. So, in significant ways these guys end up stuck partially or mostly in Stage Orange because they are still valuing Orange values, even if they do have some Yellow perspectives.

And Trump is the definition of Stage Orange.

Edited November 9 by Emerald

[zurew]

33 minutes ago, Lews Therin said:

Man, i was about to right a post just like this one, but of a person a personally admired a lot, Liv Boeree.

She wrote this on her Substack:

https://livboeree.substack.com/p/reflections-on-the-election

This tilted me so much when i read it, she was one of the people that got me interested in systems thinking, she has a whole damn podcast about it where she has interviewed Schmactenberger and other great thinkers.

I almost lost my apetite, and it is seriously making me rethink lots of what i believe.
She based her arguments on the idea that the Dems wanted the country to be humble, whereas Trump represented pride and boldness. She further elaborates that she considers humbleness to be associated with shame, which is supposedly one of the lowest emotions and can lead to envy and attempts to bash on those who actually try to improve the world.

(i don't particularly disagree with shame being a horrible thing to feel, though i think that the model she presented is BS, as it places anger way above shame, and anger can very well just be a cover up, and therefore can be "lesser" than shame)

How could someone who clearly has a lot of tier 2 in her claim that being narcisistically pridefull is better than being humble? It almost smells like accelerationism to me
This made me question if i am just morally lucky? The Dems clearly have a clearer big picture view, but how can someone who knows so much about "big pictures" like Liv fall for it? Shouldn't i have also fallen then? Did i resist just because my mind was already colonized by the other sid

All of these people wave system thinking as an aesthetic - I have seen even Schmachtenberger giving surface level takes about certain subjects - all of these people need to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Yes, some of them are very good in certain domains, but they are very bad at other domains.

The fact is that you need to have some level of specialization in a given domain to not give trash takes about it. There is no getting around this. No amount of system-thinking is going to shortcut the necessary learning and reading that you need to do. You need to spend some time and if you don't, you are going to inevitably say some dumb things .

 

She made literally a vibe based analysis, without engaging with any piece of fact and she bases her whole analysis on a spiritual model that ranks emotions.

You could literally grab any random person from the street and that person could give a political analysis with the same if not better quality.

Edited November 9 by zurew

[Nemra]

7 minutes ago, BlackPhil said:

I prefer to study both sides to avoid ending up in echo-chambers. I advice people do the same.

People can't equally be truthful.

13 minutes ago, BlackPhil said:

If you only listen to people like Vaush and corporate media it's no wonder you think Trump is Hitler. I would be scared too.

Are you aware that there are other media that are pro-Trump? They spread lies and propraganda.

I think of Trump as a child bully in an adult's body.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Owen Cook, aka RSD Tyler endorsing Trump.

Damn, even Owen. All these people seem to be “undeveloped” and blind according to the left.

I doubt the left will even be able to recover due to ideological capture which is like having blinders on. The ones that do see where their shortcomings are , are ridiculed and exiled from the tribe.

The left are spiritually feminine and retort to feminine tactics of violence such as shaming, guilting and social exclusion. They are more collectivist (feminine) and organise better, but aren’t as great at leadership (which the right is better at).

 

Edited November 9 by zazen

[What Am I]

56 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Look, if you want to toss out the phenomenon I'm talking about, you won't see reality. You will end up with justifications like you just gave. The phenomenon of people looking out for their own best interest by bending the knee and keeping quiet else their careers be ended is not only real, it's in full effect and is the very mechanism that allows Trump to reign supreme over the Republican Party. This is not a matter of opinion. 

People are driven by the knowledge that by stepping out of line, Trump could end their career with a single tweet. What does this manifest? People swallowing their own beliefs, creating an echo chamber where dissent is squashed, and loyalty is rewarded, no matter the cost to integrity. They kiss his ass like you wouldn't believe. It would make you sick to see it, which I'm guessing you haven't. 

I think I can firmly acknowledge this is a factor, especially with other politicians on the right. It manifests and becomes obvious in other ways as well, like in leaked phone calls when Trump not-so-subtly implies he won't back a politician if they don't strictly follow his lead.

I'd be hard-pressed to begin applying this to people outside the political world, though. It would take a lot to convince me that Rogan, for example, is acting out of fear from retribution by Trump, as opposed to just having genuine alignments with the party's current goals. And to maybe state it more accurately, Rogan et al. has a severe disalignment with Democrats' goals.

Here's a question. Do these voters and influencers seem genuinely scared to you, as if they're doing it with Trump's knife to their throat? Or is there a certain elation going on in their minds at the possibilities that have opened up?

To me, this does not seem like people reading a hostage note.

 

Edited November 9 by What Am I

[Nemra]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

but aren’t as great at leadership

And Trump is the great leader?

[zazen]

25 minutes ago, Nemra said:

And Trump is the great leader?

Yes, but leadership ability isn’t that same as good. Is a pickup artist good at leading women? Yes, but that says nothing of his morals or goodness. We can’t deny Trumps charisma - he can go to a rally and talk for hours then go on a podcast the same night - and it’s captivating for a lot of people.

He’s friends with British royalty and many world leaders including Shinzo Abe from Japan. There’s no doubt he’s a likable character. He’s a New York smooth talker with the gift of the gab.

Trump is a agent of chaos, a bit too decisive and at the whim of those around him. This time, due to the team and people around him - people have much more trust in him being able to lead towards better outcomes. And many smart people have jumped on board from tech ceos to entrepreneurs. Even Naval Ravikant who is very wise - check him out.

A lot of Trumpers have excessively high expectations for what will happen, they may be disappointed but we’ll see. There are much larger cycles of economics and geopolitics that no candidate or party can undo - we move through cycles like waves - but that doesn’t mean we can’t tweak how that wave is surfed upon for the better or the worse.

Edited November 9 by zazen

[Joshe]

4 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I'd be hard-pressed to begin applying this to people outside the political world, though. It would take a lot to convince me that Rogan, for example, is acting out of fear from retribution by Trump, as opposed to just having genuine alignments with the party's current goals. And to maybe state it more accurately, Rogan et al. has a severe disalignment with Democrats' goals.

Rogan is a king himself, so it doesn't apply to him. What I'm saying is that many other influencers do play that game with Rogan. They kiss his ass and avoid criticism and even surrender their own positions if it means they can get ahead via Rogan. Patrick-Bet David showered him with gifts worth god knows how much, live on air. How many people do you think are doing that behind the scenes? Imagine being that popular. Getting a single interview with Rogan can set you for life. Same with Trump. If you can have him call your name out, it can make or break you. The left doesn't have anything like this. 

Anyway, I'm getting bored of my own thoughts. Thanks for the back and forth! 

[What Am I]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

Rogan is a king himself, so it doesn't apply to him. What I'm saying is that many other influencers do play that game with Rogan. They kiss his ass and avoid criticism and even surrender their own positions if it means they can get ahead via Rogan. Patrick-Bet David showered him with gifts worth god knows how much, live on air. How many people do you think are doing that behind the scenes? Imagine being that popular. Getting a single interview with Rogan can set you for life. Same with Trump. If you can have him call your name out, it can make or break you. The left doesn't have anything like this. 

Anyway, I'm getting bored of my own thoughts. Thanks for the back and forth! 

For sure, thanks man. Always fun to grapple with a worthy opponent.

[zazen]

@Joshe @What Am I

Sometimes real positive change comes wrapped in a package that the mainstream gatekeepers have trained you to reject. Sometimes the "wrong" people end up doing the right things, even if for their own reasons. The establishments propagandists want us so afraid of being associated with the "bad tribe" that we reject any challenge to their power, no matter how legitimate.

The real question isn't whether there will be self-serving elements in any new power structure - there always are. The question is whether the public gets any crumbs from the table at all, or if they're just supposed to survive on empty virtue signals while their living standards get crushed into dust.

Theres also a difference between the economy and personal finances. The economy can be booming in terms of GDP and stocks on Wall Street but that doesn’t translate to Main Street for the average Joe who feels they have to skip the $5 coffee so they can afford their groceries.

[What Am I]

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

Sometimes the "wrong" people end up doing the right things, even if for their own reasons.

This is pretty much my sentiments with current events, and it's what I'm hoping we see come to pass.

[Nemra]

@zazen, I better have a good, inclusive, considerate leader than only a charismatic one.

But I wouldn't say that he's charismatic. Maybe his supporters see him that way. All I can see is a traumatized child.

But he sure is confident, for which we could thank the mafia.

Edited November 9 by Nemra

[martin_malin]

If all of your thinking is done through your mind, I guess you can be seduced by Trump and his acolytes. But if you're able to think with your heart and feel the vibration of the words coming out of Trump's mouth, you can't be fooled. 

When I was listening  to Aubrey's podcast a couple years ago, I thought he had a lot of Green and even some Turquoise in him. I liked his pod a lot. But then when Covid came, it seems like he lost his sense of humour and became overly serious / invested in his opinions regarding vaccination. We don't talk much about the disease of seriousness, but we're all contaminated to an extent. It's only a problem when we don't recognize our own seriousness. 

The Democratic party is surely corrupt, but at least it has policies that support the most vulnerable in our society. Republicans hate America's social safety nets and can't wait to axe them. Not very loving or Christian.

Edited November 9 by martin_malin

[How to be wise]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

It's probably an expedient business decision for him, because he's a very Masculine guy who probably has a mostly male audience.

Plus, for a Spiral Dynamics perspective...

Most men who tend to strongly value Masculinity who have some Stage Yellow qualities tend to resist Stage Green. So, in significant ways these guys end up stuck partially or mostly in Stage Orange because they are still valuing Orange values, even if they do have some Yellow perspectives.

And Trump is the definition of Stage Orange.

Don’t forget that the majority of the US is women. If even most of them voted for Harris, Trump would have no chance.

[zazen]

@Nemra We can just hope and see now.

Wikileaks, Elon, Ron Paul and many others are sounding the alarm on who to get and not get into position. The only reason they can do this and think it’s possible is because Trump isn’t establishment. The point being: theirs a chance at change actually happening vs a establishment party with Kamala who’s just the face of the establish ie a puppet.

Edited November 9 by zazen

[koops]

Guys come on...

1) Don't put people (specially online people you don't personally) on a pedestal.

2) Maybe you are not more developed that X person. Who is confirming that you are more developed? Is that a story you are telling yourself to feel good?

3) Ponder: Maybe you are not the good guy.
The 'other' guys say you are the bad one. So... who's right?

 

You are missing something, they are missing something, and based on that, you think you are 'above' the others.

Be careful and have some humility and understanding.

Remember, when you point your finger at someone and say: 'you are a devil', you have 3 fingers pointing at yourself.

 

 

Edited November 9 by koops

[Nemra]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

Trump isn’t establishment

He is.

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

Wikileaks, Elon, Ron Paul and many others are sounding the alarm on who to get and not get into position.

Who'll only be loyal to Trump. That's not good.

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

The point being: theirs a chance at change actually happening vs a establishment party with Kamala who’s just the face of the establish ie a puppet.

Yeah, change to more autocratic.

[Spiral Wizard]

I hear you brother @Thetruthseeker. 

Relax into your disappointment and allow the disillusion.

You will grow from this into greater understanding, wisdom and love.

The conspiratorial lure can basically get a hold of anyone who does not either react against it or has a certain inner wisdom to understand it's discretion. 

Don't put people that fall into conspiratorial thinking off as lunatics. There is a pain inside of them that attracts or docks onto this delusion. 

As long as you have role models you are projecting your own 'positive' qualities onto them and will therefore inevitably disillusioned because you made them into something they are not. They are equal to you. Innocently avoiding pain 'ignoring' pain and therefore creating 'ignorance'. Which can express in many ways. Dis-ease, as in Leo's case, or a partly deluded mind as in the case of RFK, Rogan, Aubrey, etc.

There is a truth in everyone's perspective. 

Once you have taken back your positive projection you will respect yourself and others as they are. 

I appreciate Aubrey for who he is with all the light and shadow because I know, we are all fallible. Carry any creater perspective, insight, or understanding with deep humility, motherly love, and fierce compassion. 

Edited November 9 by Spiral Wizard