Is Abortion Murder?

[Spiritual Warfare]

3 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Spiritual Warfare The argument is that fetus is a made up term for the seed of a human. Like taking a snapshot in time and deciding when and when not the peanut is not its own seed.

It doesn’t matter whether the fetus is considered a seed or not. The real issue is that it’s the woman’s body that has to carry it, and she will have to go through a lot of physical pain. For this reason, she has the right to continue with the pain or end it, for health reasons.

 

 

 

[Spiritual Warfare]

5 minutes ago, LordFall said:

A fetus is not a baby. It is a clump of cells without consciousness similar to Algae or moisture. If you talk about that it's eventually gonna turn into a human that's a strange argument, are we killing a potential baby everytime we pullout then? 

According to his logic, masturbating is taking a human life. Just because things have potential doesn’t mean they need to be respected or seen as something valuable. I am grateful that you are a reasonable person who can think beyond what those who are against abortion can.

 

 

[Joshe]

The answer depends on how you prefer to look at it and how terms are defined. 

To me, murder is something like the extermination of an operational consciousness. Embryos don't have consciousness, therefor, they can't be murdered. 

The issue is that people project humanness onto a mass of cells.

If someone is born in a vegetative state and kept alive for 20 years, is pulling the plug murder? Is shooting them in the head murder? I would say no because there is no consciousness and there never will be. You aren't taking anything away from them because there's no one there. It might seem and feel like murder, but it's not. 

If embryos are sacred and should be protected, couldn't someone use this logic to say sperm cells are the seeds of life and are even more sacred than embryos? I was watching mine under a microscope the other day. Poor little things. I feel so bad now. 

Edited November 8 by Joshe

[Buck Edwards]

I'm pro-life but I'm also for abortion being legal. There are many ways in which the whole modern generation can avoid an unwanted pregnancy unless they have never heard of contraception or safe sex. Sex shouldn't be for drunks. 

[Spiritual Warfare]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

The answer depends on how you prefer to look at it and how terms are defined. 

To me, murder is something like the extermination of an operational consciousness. Embryos don't have consciousness, therefor, they can't be murdered. 

The issue is that people project humanness onto a mass of cells.

If someone is born in a vegetative state and kept alive for 20 years, is pulling the plug murder? Is shooting them in the head murder? I would say no because there is no consciousness and there never will be. You aren't taking anything away from them because there's no one there. It might seem and feel like murder, but it's not. 

If embryos are sacred and should be protected, couldn't someone use this logic to say sperm cells are the seeds of life and are even more sacred than embryos? I was watching mine under a microscope the other day. Poor little things. I feel so bad now. 

Your point about the potential of embryos is valid, but the issue isn’t just about potential life. It’s about the rights of the woman carrying the pregnancy. If a woman doesn’t feel ready or able to continue the pregnancy, she should have the right to choose an abortion, just as she should have the right to make other decisions about her body. We need to respect her autonomy to make the best decision for her health and future.

 

 

[Spiritual Warfare]

6 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

I'm pro-life but I'm also for abortion being legal. There are many ways in which the whole modern generation can avoid an unwanted pregnancy unless they have never heard of contraception or safe sex. Sex shouldn't be for drunks. 

I agree that one should not abuse sex just to have an abortion later. Abortion should be legal, but I wish it could be reduced, not eliminated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sholomar]

Yes, but I believe there is room for compassion and choice on the abortion issue. First, assuming you believe in the soul, past lifes, reincarnation, the soul already is aware of the possibility of an abortion happening, and is prepared for it. 

Second, the fetus has no conscious awareness of it's existence until perhaps the month up to birth, where some people report remembering being in the womb.  Third, the sex drive is extremely strong and for conservatives to say to just abstain is asking a lot given our nature.  Fourth, to ask a mother to raise a child they are not ready to raise when they are really young especially, when the guy knocks her up and disappears, can be traumatic for a young person especially if their parents are conservative and not supportive of the accidential pregnancy.  Fifth, asking them to raise a child they probably cannot afford means the government is going to pay for it.. you'd think more conservatives would be against that.   

For all these reasons and more I generally support abortion through the first or second trimester. I just don't see any harm coming of it, besides potential future psychological damage as the woman gets older wondering what the child would have been like that they aborted, which is a very real thing, but something the woman will have to deal with.  Bottom line, it should be a choice, in my opinion of course.  When you criminalize something there will just be black markets for it, and there have been black markets for dangerous abortion procedures going back thousands of years. 

Edited November 8 by sholomar

[Spiritual Warfare]

2 hours ago, sholomar said:

Yes, but I believe there is room for compassion and choice on the abortion issue. First, assuming you believe in the soul, past lifes, reincarnation, the soul already is aware of the possibility of an abortion happening, and is prepared for it. 

Second, the fetus has no conscious awareness of it's existence until perhaps the month up to birth, where some people report remembering being in the womb.  Third, the sex drive is extremely strong and for conservatives to say to just abstain is asking a lot given our nature.  Fourth, to ask a mother to raise a child they are not ready to raise when they are really young especially, when the guy knocks her up and disappears, can be traumatic for a young person especially if their parents are conservative and not supportive of the accidential pregnancy.  Fifth, asking them to raise a child they probably cannot afford means the government is going to pay for it.. you'd think more conservatives would be against that.   

For all these reasons and more I generally support abortion through the first or second trimester. I just don't see any harm coming of it, besides potential future psychological damage as the woman gets older wondering what the child would have been like that they aborted, which is a very real thing, but something the woman will have to deal with.  Bottom line, it should be a choice, in my opinion of course.  When you criminalize something there will just be black markets for it, and there have been black markets for dangerous abortion procedures going back thousands of years. 

👏

[BlueOak]

People are unaware that consciousness is the most important thing in the universe.

Someone who isn't conscious isn't there. This applies to brain-dead people on life support, and it applies to unborn, unconscious babies. Until something is conscious, it is part of the mother and her choice. When it has consciousness awareness it needs all the protection in the world, including more support for drug treatment, child safety, schooling, healthcare, and the foster care system, which runs parallel with how many additional babies are forced to be born into broken homes by governmental policy.

NB Before someone's ego defends their existence, I was also born into a hellish home, so I understand and there is no need to defend yourself to me. This is an observation of society and policy impacts on life as a whole.

Edited November 8 by BlueOak

[Spiritual Warfare]

52 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

People are unaware that consciousness is the most important thing in the universe.

Someone who isn't conscious isn't there. This applies to brain-dead people on life support, and it applies to unborn, unconscious babies. Until something is conscious, it is part of the mother and her choice. When it has consciousness awareness it needs all the protection in the world, including more support for drug treatment, child safety, schooling, healthcare, and the foster care system, which runs parallel with how many additional babies are forced to be born into broken homes by governmental policy.

NB Before someone's ego defends their existence, I was also born into a hellish home, so I understand and there is no need to defend yourself to me. This is an observation of society and policy impacts on life as a whole.

👏I keep hearing about the consequences for the body, but never about those beyond that. It’s so irresponsible not to consider the societal consequences for the child if it’s born. This needs much more attention. It’s a very narrow perspective to believe a mother should be forced to give birth against her will. 

[BlueOak]

1 minute ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

👏I keep hearing about the consequences for the body, but never about those beyond that. It’s so irresponsible not to consider the societal consequences for the child if it’s born. This needs much more attention. It’s a very narrow perspective to believe a mother should be forced to give birth against her will. 

Yes, the entire debate drove me mad, and it's why I wish there were at least 3 voices in US or UK politics on several issues for balance.

One side wants to protect the immediate body of the unborn.
The other wants to protect rights of the mother.

Few voices considered the life of the child after birth, or the mother for that matter in either scenario.

Edited November 8 by BlueOak

[Spiritual Warfare]

3 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Yes, the entire debate drove me mad, and it's why I wish there were at least 3 voices in US politics on several issues for balance.

One side wants to protect the immediate body of the unborn.
The other wants to protect rights of the mother.

Few voices considered the life of the child after birth, or the mother for that matter in either scenario.

It needs to be much more fairly balanced, but I believe the bias within us is what ultimately throws off that balance.

[enchanted]

Great points here on both sides.

What about a hypothetical test tube baby that's grown completely outside of a woman's body @Spiritual Warfare and @BlackPhil ?

What day in it's development would you two think it wrong to "abort" it? 

Edited November 8 by enchanted

[Schizophonia]

It's not.

Fetus do not have an identity and are therefore not protected by the state.

Edited November 8 by Schizophonia

[Thought Art]

Can denying a abortion be murder?

[Spiritual Warfare]

6 minutes ago, enchanted said:

Great points here on both sides.

What about a hypothetical test tube baby that's grown completely outside of a woman's body @Spiritual Warfare and @BlackPhil ?

What day in it's development would you two think it wrong to "abort" it? 

For me, the focus should remain on whether the being has reached a stage where it can experience anything, such as pain, awareness, or emotions. Until that point I’d view it as potential life but not yet an individual with a conscious experience that would make “abortion” ethically problematic.

[Spiritual Warfare]

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It's not.

Fetus do not have an identity and are therefore not protected by the state.

I agree.

[Spiritual Warfare]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Can denying a abortion be murder?

I’m not entirely sure, but it will lead to very harmful effects on the woman’s health.

[Thought Art]

@Spiritual Warfare Even if the birth will kill her and the fetus is already dead huh

[Spiritual Warfare]

38 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Spiritual Warfare Even if the birth will kill her and the fetus is already dead huh

No, if the woman is not allowed to have an abortion, the risks could lead to her death.