Democrats are losing young men?

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Talinn said:

If this post is any indication at all it will only get worse for them, the societal changes will be interesting to experience. Even more polarization in American life.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1gli4en/anyone_else_joining_the_4b_movement/

Looooool this is gonna sound mean but like probably 90% of the women commenting on this thread most men would not rank as attractive or are the women the incels feel they are missing out on. Physically attractive women generally speaking don’t give a shit about feminism or politics. I saw videos on my feed made by the women making these posts and they can keep those doors closed  men in the USA ain’t missing out on nothing with them. 

Edited Thursday at 08:20 PM by Lyubov

[Jannes]

Even if women outperform men, if they want to have children, they will have a disadvantage later. I think there is kind of a balance there in that women naturally get their act together quicker for that exact reason. Thats a partial truth. 

Another partial truth might be that men simply dont want to adapt. I see integrating feminine traits as important. Talking about feeling and seeking help might be something men refuse to do and then it's kind of their fault for struggling. 

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

Well, maybe you can help clarify something that I'm not getting a solid answer for, both in this thread and others. In your education in politics and history, is it the case that the differences in ideologies also seemingly split along male/female traits? It's something I genuinely don't know, but I could swear we're at least seeing some semblance of it in modern times.

It's important to point out that I'm not calling men on the left feminine weaklings. That's obviously not an appropriate hard-and-fast rule, because exceptions are apparent everywhere. But is it way off to assume some kind of correlation here?

I know more than most but I'm not well-educated on politics or history. My wheelhouse is human nature and psychology, reading reality, and putting 2 and 2 together. I mostly operate on intuition and logic, and instead of diving deep into every topic that I come across, I collect the fundamentals and infer from there and acquire knowledge as needed. 

So, I can't provide any historical or scientific data to answer your question but it seems like common sense to me that specific ideas attract specific types of people.

Men like watching football. Why? Because it allows them to engage with and play out their masculine ideals. Women like playing with babies? Why? Same logic. 

From this, it seems easy to infer what's going on here.

The right's idea of a man is one who shoots guns, watches football, gets pussy, is respected by others because they're assertive or dominant, etc, not someone who sits around dealing in feminine things.

The left's idea of a man includes someone who isn't afraid of the vulnerability that comes with the feminine and who sees women as equals and deserving of as much freedom as men have and not just something for men to own.

The right isn't interested in femininity because they think it makes them look weak and because it gets in the way of them expressing what they want to express, which is not the feminine. Essentially, they're more selfish and cowardly. 

Something like that. So yeah, the party that says "hey, women are people too" will attract people more morally developed than the party who thinks "women are here to serve men". Depending on your definition of masculinity, it can easily seem like the right is more masculine due to appearances but if you take a deeper look into what motivates humans, it seems clear to me what's going on. 

And of course, underdeveloped people often need more self-esteem and one way they get that is by calling others weak. 

All of this is spontaneous sensemaking off the top of my head as I'm writing it. I'm no expert on the subject but I think this seems largely accurate, but obviously incomplete and imprecise. I'm not sure how well it answers your question though. 

Edited Thursday at 09:35 PM by Joshe

[What Am I]

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

My wheelhouse is human nature and psychology

This was my exact guess as to your likely profession. Very cool.

Thanks for your analysis. I'm similar in the sense that I largely run off of careful observation and intuition as well. It's tricky to come up with anything concrete when human complexity is so off the charts, but there's probably a lot of truth to what you're saying.

[Joshe]

43 minutes ago, What Am I said:

This was my exact guess as to your likely profession. Very cool.

Thanks for your analysis. I'm similar in the sense that I largely run off of careful observation and intuition as well. It's tricky to come up with anything concrete when human complexity is so off the charts, but there's probably a lot of truth to what you're saying.

It's not my profession. I'm a freelance frontend guy. lol.

I've just always had a natural curiosity for it, so I have thousands of hours contemplating it. I've always been very aware of my own psychology, and seeing what goes on there is very much what goes on in everyone else. We're all more alike than not, at least when it comes to our drivers and emotions.

I non-stop ask "why did that person do that" or "what makes them do that" and then hypothesize. I enjoyed the puzzles but most are solved now. Over time, you get better and better at it until eventually, you can size most people up really quickly with little info and the more info that comes in, the more refined the read. I'm more confident in my reads on individuals now because they're almost always right. Sounds arrogant but it's true. It really became obvious when I got into live poker several years back and I saw in real time how accurate they were. It was thrilling as hell but also very eerie. I really shouldn't call them "my reads", because I don't do anything for them. My mind serves up patterns on a silver platter for my prefrontal cortex to process with logic. lol.

But yeah, I'm not a psychologist. 😂

Edited Thursday at 10:17 PM by Joshe

[What Am I]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

It's not my profession. I'm a freelance frontend guy. lol.

I've just always had a natural curiosity for it, so I have thousands of hours contemplating it. I've always been very aware of my own psychology, and seeing what goes on there is very much what goes on in everyone else. We're all more alike than not.

I non-stop ask "why did that person do that" or "what makes them do that" and then hypothesize. I enjoyed the puzzles but most are solved now. Over time, you get better and better at it until eventually, you can size most people up really quickly with little info and the more info that comes in, the more refined the read. I'm more confident in my reads on individuals now because they're almost always right. Sounds arrogant but it's true. It really became obvious when I got into live poker several years back and I saw in real time how accurate they were. It was thrilling as hell but also very eerie. I really shouldn't call them "my reads", because I don't do anything for them. My mind serves up patterns on a silver platter for my prefrontal cortex to process with logic. lol.

But yeah, I'm not a psychologist. 😂

Ah, gotcha. This is perhaps even cooler. We're brothers in silicon.

That's true, our professions don't have to define us. God knows I'm into some stuff that's very much outside of computers.

[sholomar]

8 hours ago, What Am I said:

But what's your explanation for the voting habits from the youth who aren't radicalized?

People don't like being preached too and the modern left are too preachy in a religious fundamentalist sort of way... you either fall into line on every issue they support or they attack and outcast you. This moral/intellectual superiority stage greens dangle over people is offputting to them. Nobody likes being told they are low IQ, inferior, a racist, just because they're not a bunch of socialist utopians who don't support unchecked immigration with no vetting, or gender changes for adolescents, or men competing in women's sports and beating world records, and being fact checked and cancelled if you don't agree. Democrats were becoming too controlling with their narrative peddling.... not allowing room for actual opposing viewpoints.... they "hate the haters" and think they have the moral high ground when they do it, and can't understand why their tactics aren't working and they push away moderates.  Now they're blaming it on racist men who didn't want to elect a woman, which is quite frankly pure bullshit.  Having emotional meltdowns and lame excuses does not equate to being well developed much less self aware or introspective.

Let's put it this way... they pushed me away more than Trump pushed me away.  Yes, people like Tulsi and Musk, former liberals and current moderates, did sway people's opinions... just watching lefties rip them for daring to have moderate viewpoints and leave the democrat party or gasp, allow a free speech platform, is what's wrong with the democrat party. If you want to claim to be inclusive, be inclusive.  Plus, California making it against the law to check for voter ID... this really makes the left look nuts... makes them look like they don't care if they cheat to win, they only care about power and having it.  All this comes off as looney to normal people. Plus, it's the economy stupid...

I will grant you, I can see how Trump's behavior, what he says during his rallies, comes off as looney to the left, and dangerous. I can see their perspective, see why they are concerned. Time will tell if their fears are justified or not.

Edited Thursday at 11:25 PM by sholomar

[What Am I]

 

8 minutes ago, sholomar said:

People don't like being preached too and the modern left are too preachy in a religious fundamentalist sort of way... you either fall into line on every issue they support or they attack and outcast you. This moral/intellectual superiority stage greens dangle over people is offputting to them. Nobody likes being told they are low IQ, inferior, a racist, just because they're not a bunch of socialist utopians who don't support unchecked immigration with no vetting, or gender changes for adolescents, or men competing in women's sports and beating world records, and being fact checked and cancelled if you don't agree. Democrats were becoming too controlling with their narrative peddling.... not allowing room for actual opposing viewpoints.... they "hate the haters" and think they have the moral high ground when they do it, and can't understand why their tactics aren't working and they push away moderates.  Now they're blaming it on racist men who didn't want to elect a woman, which is quite frankly pure bullshit.  Having emotional meltdowns does not equate to being well developed.

Whether this is actually true or not, it's 100% the perception for many, and the left would be wise to pay attention to it. Probably an incredibly common theme among the youth. I think it goes along with my earlier post which pointed out young peoples' rebellious nature and dislike for assumed authority.

To be honest, that aspect of spiral dynamics rubs me the wrong way a bit as well. The idea that some are simply inferior, and therefore incapable of understanding the factors that define their own inferiority. But my SD knowledge is weak as hell, so it could be a misunderstanding on my part. Or maybe I need to adjust to an uncomfortable reality.

[Raze]

The democrats don’t really have a good figure to reach out to young men either. Men want someone they can look up to and be inspired by. I’ve seen people suggest destiny or Hasan and that’s silly. 

It cannot be Hasan because he is basically a trust fund baby and is prone to whining. He’s also too far left. 

Destiny behaves like a Incel Internet troll and his personal life is an embarrassment. 

Also outside of their fan bases they are known for nothing but streaming all day and occasionally getting humiliated in a debate or saying something stupid.

The right now has Elon Musk known for starting many huge companies and Joe Rogan who was a champion martial artist and successful comedian. They actually have achievements.
 

I honestly don’t know how dems get past this as any such figure has to get past the core dem base filled with lib boomers and feminists, Bernie sanders of all people was accused of sexism by them. 

Edited Thursday at 11:37 PM by Raze

[What Am I]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

The democrats don’t really have a good figure to reach out to young men either. Men want someone they can look up to and be inspired by. I’ve seen people suggest destiny or Hasan and that’s silly. 

It cannot be Hasan because he is basically a trust fund baby and is prone to whining. He’s also too far left. 

Destiny behaves like a Incel Internet troll and his personal life is an embarrassment. 
 

Both are also known for nothing else but streaming all day and losing debates.

The right now has Elon Musk known for starting many huge companies and Joe Rogan who was a champion martial artist and successful comedian. They actually have achievements.

Well, from a more charitable perspective, Destiny is a pretty good role-model for high-intellect men of a certain temperament. Beyond championing intelligence, he also favors responsibility and well-reasoned positions. I imagine Scholar pulls a lot of influence from Destiny's way of being.

I don't watch Hasan, but from what I have seen, it doesn't seem like he'd lead the youth anywhere positive. Most likely it'd be into some form of communist revolution, lol.

If Destiny would soften some of his rough edges, he could take up quite a position of influence in the future.

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Well, from a more charitable perspective, Destiny is a pretty good role-model for high-intellect men of a certain temperament. Beyond championing intelligence, he also favors responsibility and well-reasoned positions. I imagine Scholar pulls a lot of influence from Destiny's way of being.

I don't watch Hasan, but from what I have seen, it doesn't seem like he'd lead the youth anywhere positive. Most likely it'd be into some form of communist revolution, lol.

If Destiny would soften some of his rough edges, he could take up quite a position of influence in the future.

Unlikely. I saw a list of online male celebs and their approval among young men and destiny was pretty low.

[What Am I]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

Unlikely. I saw a list of online male celebs and their approval among young men and destiny was pretty low.

But I did qualify that he's not a perfect role-model for everyone. Alternatively, neither is Rogan. Everybody needs someone whose similarities resonate and help guide the path forward. Destiny has the capacity to fill a certain niche, much more so than he is currently. I'm not even technically on his side politically, and I'm still enthralled with the quality of the content.

Though you may have a point that the Dems need more of an "every-man" to reach a wider audience. It's a tough gap to fill.

[Raze]

16 minutes ago, What Am I said:

But I did qualify that he's not a perfect role-model for everyone. Alternatively, neither is Rogan. Everybody needs someone whose similarities resonate and help guide the path forward. Destiny has the capacity to fill a certain niche, much more so than he is currently. I'm not even technically on his side politically, and I'm still enthralled with the quality of the content.

Though you may have a point that the Dems need more of an "every-man" to reach a wider audience. It's a tough gap to fill.

No, they need someone likable with accomplishments. 
Rogan and Musk aren’t really every man types, but they’ve succeeded in life and come across conversational.

[What Am I]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

No, they need someone likable with accomplishments. 
Rogan and Musk aren’t really every man types, but they’ve succeeded in life and come across conversational.

I won't argue with you too much, lol. I actually like Rogan and Musk, and pretty much all the other popular figures currently leaning right. I just think both sides offer impressive characters. Probably because when it comes down to it, they're all just people.

We'll just have to see where this all goes.

Edited Friday at 12:19 AM by What Am I

[Consept]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

The democrats don’t really have a good figure to reach out to young men either. Men want someone they can look up to and be inspired by. I’ve seen people suggest destiny or Hasan and that’s silly. 

I agree with you, there arent really strong male role models on the left. What I've noticed about men and boys on the left is that they really want someone with what they see as an ideal life to emulate and listen to. What's funny is it's not really what a traditional man would do, you wouldn't follow another man completely like that, you'd have your own sovereignty. 

Also another factor is that a lot of the right wing manosphere are grifters, so they will just tell guys what the want to hear, hit pain points etc and fleece their followers for money (tate, fresh n fit etc). So even if there are positive people on the left, if they do have integrity, it's very easy for them to get drowned out. 

Curiously I think rsd Juliens content atm is exactly what we're talking about could help people, even despite his history. But look at the difference in his reach since he changed from hard-core pick up to the self help stuff he does now. 

I actually think it's a really hard task to have integrity, compete with those that don't and be widely popular. The devil is always more alluring. 

Dems also being out of touch, missed out on collabing with the few guys who are on the left, even political guys in the left on youtube. This is something trump did very well in terms of his podcast appearances. 

[Consept]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

Unlikely. I saw a list of online male celebs and their approval among young men and destiny was pretty low.

Destiny only really works with people who value truth more than personality, achievements etc. Not that he's always right but he prioritises the search for truth, with research etc. But if you're looking for a cultist type leader he wouldn't work. Hassan is just as bad as those on the right but just in a leftist persona.

It's a tough one the left really need people to up their game because this alt right pipeline is like a cancer 

[Etherial Cat]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

I agree with you, there arent really strong male role models on the left. What I've noticed about men and boys on the left is that they really want someone with what they see as an ideal life to emulate and listen to. What's funny is it's not really what a traditional man would do, you wouldn't follow another man completely like that, you'd have your own sovereignty. 

Also another factor is that a lot of the right wing manosphere are grifters, so they will just tell guys what the want to hear, hit pain points etc and fleece their followers for money (tate, fresh n fit etc). So even if there are positive people on the left, if they do have integrity, it's very easy for them to get drowned out. 

Curiously I think rsd Juliens content atm is exactly what we're talking about could help people, even despite his history. But look at the difference in his reach since he changed from hard-core pick up to the self help stuff he does now. 

I actually think it's a really hard task to have integrity, compete with those that don't and be widely popular. The devil is always more alluring. 

Dems also being out of touch, missed out on collabing with the few guys who are on the left, even political guys in the left on youtube. This is something trump did very well in terms of his podcast appearances. 

Great comment. I fully agree.

I've found this video which illustrate how healthy masculinity should look like. Of course, it's through a fictional character, but there is a lot to learn from it.

[What Am I]

4 hours ago, Consept said:

Destiny only really works with people who value truth more than personality, achievements etc. Not that he's always right but he prioritises the search for truth, with research etc. But if you're looking for a cultist type leader he wouldn't work. Hassan is just as bad as those on the right but just in a leftist persona.

It's a tough one the left really need people to up their game because this alt right pipeline is like a cancer 

Let's just hope the creation of these left-wing figures is organic. Modern people can sniff out inauthenticity so much easier these days. Even many on the left agree that Kamala's campaign had the stink of being carefully constructed, and something like that won't win hearts and minds.

[Consept]

3 hours ago, What Am I said:

Let's just hope the creation of these left-wing figures is organic. Modern people can sniff out inauthenticity so much easier these days. Even many on the left agree that Kamala's campaign had the stink of being carefully constructed, and something like that won't win hearts and minds.

I agree authenticity is key to connect with people in politics. I've always believed that and was usually put off by politicians inability to answer simple questions. 

I wouldn't say Kamalas campaign was terrible but I don't think she had great strategies to reach certain demographics. Her not doing a lot of podcasts was a really bad oversight on her part. Realistically that's where you reach people these days, at least young people anyway. Trump understood this well and even though I don't think he anything really meaningful the whole campaign, he was still in the right places and reached people where they were at. 

I also think Destiny's strategy for this is top tier as well, the amount of reach he's had in the last year or 2 has been phonemonal. But I don't think he really sees himself as a role model, although he does have a lot of male followers but he doesn't position himself as someone to follow. 

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

I agree authenticity is key to connect with people in politics. I've always believed that and was usually put off by politicians inability to answer simple questions. 

I wouldn't say Kamalas campaign was terrible but I don't think she had great strategies to reach certain demographics. Her not doing a lot of podcasts was a really bad oversight on her part. Realistically that's where you reach people these days, at least young people anyway. Trump understood this well and even though I don't think he anything really meaningful the whole campaign, he was still in the right places and reached people where they were at. 

I also think Destiny's strategy for this is top tier as well, the amount of reach he's had in the last year or 2 has been phonemonal. But I don't think he really sees himself as a role model, although he does have a lot of male followers but he doesn't position himself as someone to follow. 

Yeah, but I think the problem with Kamala and podcasts is that she probably lacks the ability to comfortably put on a show and be a good guest. She very easily could have gone on Rogan, and she was expressly invited. I'm guessing her campaign thought better of it due to the risks of a poor showing. Either way, it may be a requirement going forward that politicians are simply required to be more personable.

For Destiny, when I see him giving advice in weight training, finance, relationships, etc., I do think he sees himself as a bit of a role model. But you guys are probably correct that he won't reach the levels of someone like Joe Rogan. Someone who's currently unknown may need to rise up and fill that gap on the left.