Is enlightenment even possible?

[Staples]

7 hours ago, Yimpa said:

And the construction workers are an illusion 

Spoilers man!

[zurew]

@UnbornTao  I need to clear up some things in my mind, before I can more clearly articulate what my exact issue is about communication. I will tag you when im ready (probably gonna take a while).

 

I will respond to the other things you said that are not about communication.

On 2024. 11. 14. at 2:44 AM, UnbornTao said:

When it comes to your nature (or anything else for that matter), belief is actually an impediment, as it precludes questioning. Bring to mind what you believe about yourself--I bet that set is considered to be true or descriptive of yourself, at least in some way, if we're honest about it. That certainty gets in the way of a genuine and open inquiry. After all, why question in the first place if "the answer" is already known (assumed)?

I dont agree with any of that - Having beliefs doesn't entail, that you cant question those beliefs. I use the term knowledge differently than how probably most of you use that term - I dont take knowledge to be infallible.

So there are multiple things there: 1) I have beliefs about things that I take to be unjustified (I am open to change these beliefs). 2)  I have knowledge about things (these I would consider justified beliefs) , I am also open to change these things,

Me having belief about something or me having knowledge about something doesn't prevent me from the ability to question those things. If you are trying to point to some sort of false sense of certainty - maybe, but again when it comes to me thats not the case. I am open to challenge everything, and I like to be cognizant of what kind of presuppositions a given knowledge or belief of mine is dependent on.

So going back the issue that I brought up - I dont think in principle it is better to not form beliefs about things.

On 2024. 11. 14. at 2:44 AM, UnbornTao said:

Besides, no method for itself can achieve it for you--it might help in a lot of ways, too, such as by focusing the mind. Similar to how no action within a dream can wake one up.

Yeah I think this is one of your most controversial takes - where you state that no method is better compared to another, when it comes to "triggering" enlightenment.

Although this might be another communication issue, where you want to say something like "realization happens sepearately from all methods and actions and you can do that realization right now and there is no direct cause and effect, where the cause is an action and the effect is the realization" ; but this is not the same as saying "there is no method or action that can create a condition or environment to make you more susceptible to have the realization".

Im not sure whether you try to say something like "enlightenment is completely random and purely based on luck" or you want to say something different.

 

Edited November 15 by zurew

[theleelajoker]

23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you consider it crazy that this happens every day? Empathy is the transfer of consciousness from one person to the next one. Just looking at a person can radically change your state. Just a warm touch from a loving person can radically change your state. A smile, a hug, a kiss. These are viewed as normal states, but there is principally no reason why more elevated states cannot be transfered as well. Try trip sitting a bunch of people on LSD or mushrooms and see what happens (this is a known phenomena; "contact high").

@Carl-Richard

Well I have to admit I did not really think about it much on a everyday level. Thx for making me reflect on it. There is definitely sth re the transfer of states. Contact high - yes, I experienced it to some degree on festivals or even in clubs with friends that consumed psychedelics. I just never experiences it that strong as with Shakipat.

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As for why Shaktipat doesn't seem to work well for some people but is very effective for others, it can have to do with how open and allowing you are, similarly to how for empathy, you have to be open and allowing to tune into another person's state. If you are skeptical (which you seemed to be), you will be more closed, and the energy will be less able to get in. So if you manage to put down your barriers and completely buy into the process, that is maybe when you will see more drastic effects.

In short - I agree. Breakingthewall often talks about "openness" and I simply like that term. I did and still do integrate this more and more in my life. Indeed I was much more skeptical about - let's call it non-material phenomena -  than I am now. But at the same time, I was open enough for Shaktipat to experience a profound effect on me even back then.

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As a self-proclaimed empathetic person, when I try my fullest to tune into Jan's state in some of his videos (e.g. this one, it's crazy), and the times I have been rather successful at that, I have sensed that he is in a extremely different state than most people are in. It's actually unbelievable how he is able to even talk in that state. It's like he is constantly shooting heroin into his veins. So to me, it would actually be quite odd that him touching you for a prolonged period would not cause at least some effect on you, even if you are closed empathetically in that particular situation.

I don't sense this state as you do. Body language, eyes, tone, breath does not give me this impression. I do see value in his points, though.

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I personally don't find him "depressing", but maybe a bit low on interpersonal warmth at times. Interestingly, people tend to have similar mixed feelings about Sadhguru. (...)

Yeah..I just don't know. He just does not seem genuinely happy to me. He said in the other video that he does not want to be a teacher and in his seminar he gave that that exact impression of "I DO NOT WANT TO BE HERE, I DO NOT CARE, I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU AND IN GENERAL, THIS HERE SUCKS". Of course, that is my impression but similar impressions were also shared by other participants.

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(...)There is still a person there with distinct behavioral patterns that logically follow from their past actions and that have to live themselves out (prarabdha karma) (...)

On  the one hand - yes. I understand and agree.

On the other hand - then what is this big fuss about enlightenment about?

As a result of my participating in this forum,  I personally really start to dislike this cult about enlightenment as a state.  So I am enlightened, but I am not warm re other people, I live in an unhealthy way, I still get sick, I am insecure, I still have to deal with everyday problems like everybody else - so what is this all about? So I can feel "bliss"? Honestly, I haven't met anyone that I would consider someone being in constant bliss. The most developed people I met were meditation teachers. But they did not seem to be "in constant bliss" - simply calm, empathic, healthy lifestyle and in peace with themselves, their role and their actions. Is this bliss?

For me, it's not. Bliss for me is a little bit more. It's not only accepting but embracing ("loving") everything that is. A inner state that is there almost completely independent of matter what happens in the external world (I say almost, because death of loved ones or severe physical injury to me definitely would impact me even in this moments).  I remember momentary states and periods in which I consider myself in "bliss".  For example:  No 1 - during and after long meditation retreats (10 days).  No. 2: Psychedelics, e.g. Peyote and Ayahuasca, sometimes even weed. No 3. Falling in love with my partner.  I remember these states, and I believe I can sense them quite well in other people, too. And I believe can sense when other people are not in this state as well. Haven't met anyone (yet) that has been in this "enlightened, blissfull state" over an extended period of time no matter what they say...

 And about enlightenment...

Yes, 100 people in this forum probably use 101 different concepts of enlightenment, and yes there a phases and stages, and so on and so on.  For me, 90% of these discussions amount to nothing but more mental masturbation.  I heard, seen and read it enlightenment bla bla so many times from so many people while at the same time sensing their arrogance, their insecurities and their inauthenticity. Lot's of cheap talk about some mystic state, some strange ideas and propaganda from self-proclaimed gurus and their sheep-like followers who regurgitate the same meaningless phrases and concepts. Meaningless, because talk alone is cheap.  What I propose instead?

Let's not talk about "enlightenment", let's talk about action. Let's not talk about some abstract conceptualized states, but concrete, subjective experiences and in particular actions.

I like the quote "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightenment people, there is only enlightened action" (from Inner Worlds, outer Worlds I believe). Let's assume you are "enlightened" - so then what? Life will put you  - if you want it or not - into situations where you have to make decisions and take actions.  Let's say "enlightened action" is actions aligned with the Dao / Dharma  whatever that may be in this situation. You take "enlightened" actions, you get into this state while executing this action. You don't take "enlightened" actions - you loose that state.  But the "state" IS the action, the action is the state. I don't think there is a state independent from your actions. You don't reach enlightenment and then "puff" you stay in this.  No - instead your actions determine your state and not vice versa BS like "I am enlightened, I understand, I am in bliss, etc etc." and then you simply remain in this. 

So what matters in the end is what you do and nothing else. Sorry, but fuck your alleged enlightenment, your alleged state or your alleged bliss.  I can't see that, I can't relate to that, only things that matters to me is what you do and how you do it. Don't talk, show it to me with your behavior, show me with your whole being. 

For me, the whole thing about "enlightenment" is similar to the idea of "Chitta" in the Yoga Sutra. We cannot directly observe it, but we can observe the actions of it. Let's focus on actions with "enlightenment", too. 

Edited November 15 by theleelajoker

[James123]

13 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

For me, the whole thing about "enlightenment" is similar to the idea of "Chitta" in the Yoga Sutra. We cannot directly observe it, but we can observe the actions of it. Let's focus on actions with "enlightenment", too. 

Enlightenment is simply being where You already are. 

You can not experience, observe, act, focus etc... You can only Be. 

Because, the experiencer is an illusion in first place. 

Nice conversation btw. 

[theleelajoker]

25 minutes ago, James123 said:

Enlightenment is simply being where You already are. 

You can not experience, observe, act, focus etc... You can only Be. 

Because, the experiencer is an illusion in first place. 

Nice conversation btw. 

Haha ok I think we might get lost in concepts now Let's see

So being where you already are - that means for you that you have no resistance to where you are, with what is? Or how you describe it?

Yeah, so "I" am an illusion. But it's a persistent one so I have to deal with the illusion at least to some degree (eat, sleep, emotional needs etc)

Edited November 15 by theleelajoker

[James123]

4 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

So being where you already are - that means for you that you have no resistance to where you are, with what is? Or how you describe it?

Genuinely not know or completely forget everything as before so called birth, what is left? 

5 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

But it's a persistent one so I have to deal with the illusion at least to some degree (eat, sleep, emotional needs etc)

Not deal, let goo.

[theleelajoker]

9 minutes ago, James123 said:

Genuinely not know or completely forget everything as before so called birth, what is left?

I don't know the answer to this question.  I could say "nothing"  but that's just a mental concept I cannot really identify with.

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Not deal, let goo.

Genuinely asking:  Can you give concrete examples and situations on how to do that?

[James123]

Just now, theleelajoker said:

I could say "nothing"  but that's just a mental concept I cannot really identify with.

How can you have mental concept when you do not know anything, including yourself?

1 minute ago, theleelajoker said:

Genuinely asking:  Can you give concrete examples and situations on how to do that?

For instance, the so called body includes billions of cells, all of them synchronize at the same time, you have no control whatsoever. This is just the one of the example.

You have no control on anything whatsoever. Health, people, money, future, past etc... You have to just know that you have only this moment. Nothing else. Which is not for controlling, which is fully feeling and being present. 

[theleelajoker]

7 minutes ago, James123 said:

How can you have mental concept when you do not know anything, including yourself?

For instance, the so called body includes billions of cells, all of them synchronize at the same time, you have no control whatsoever. This is just the one of the example.

You have no control on anything whatsoever. Health, people, money, future, past etc... You have to just know that you have only this moment. Nothing else. Which is not for controlling, which is fully feeling and being present. 

OK.  Thx.

[James123]

2 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

OK.  Thx.

You are welcome.

[Princess Arabia]

13 minutes ago, James123 said:

You have no control on anything whatsoever.

Do you realize what you're actually saying. First you say there's no you. Then you say YOU have no control on anything whatsoever implying there's a you. And people just listen to this shit and swallow it up. I'm not saying there's a you, and i'm not saying there's any control, there are nuances to this shit and it's not that cut and dry. 

[Princess Arabia]

37 minutes ago, James123 said:

Genuinely not know or completely forget everything as before so called birth, what is left? 

How can one completely forget everything when they didn't invent the mechanisms on how remembrance and forgetfulness works. Like please forget everything...ok, I forget everything. Doesn't work like that. 

[James123]

Just now, Princess Arabia said:

Do you realize what you're actually saying. First you say there's no you. Then you say YOU have no control on anything whatsoever implying there's a you. And people just listen to this shit and swallow it up. I'm not saying there's a you, and i'm not saying there's any control, there are nuances to this shit and it's not that cut and dry. 

There is a path Ms. People think that they are exist. In order to help them, you have to talk the way that they can understand. I am trying to help people. Because as a self, I am still a human being, what I am is, there is nothing there. You should actually do the work instead of talking. 

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, James123 said:

. You should actually do the work instead of talking. 

Doing it right now my love. 24/7

[theleelajoker]

10 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Do you realize what you're actually saying. First you say there's no you. Then you say YOU have no control on anything whatsoever implying there's a you. And people just listen to this shit and swallow it up. I'm not saying there's a you, and i'm not saying there's any control, there are nuances to this shit and it's not that cut and dry. 

• I asked James123 for clarifications. He replied.
• My goal was to understand what he means. My impression was that I know understand his perspective.
• I am not swallowing anything. Nor do I see what he expresses as shit.
• I do my best to understand. Then I integrate what I resonates. I exclude what does not resonate. I stay curious if I don't understand.
• Language is limited. We do the best we can with what we have.

Edited November 15 by theleelajoker

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

• I asked James123 for clarifications. He replied.
• My goal was to understand what he means. My impression was that I know understand his perspective.
• I am not swallowing anything. Nor do I see what he expresses as shit.
• I do my best to understand. Then I integrate what I resonates. I exclude what does not resonate. I stay curious if I don't understand.
• Language is limited. We do the best we can with what we have.

OK Mr, illusion. Well said. I will stay out of people's conversations and attend to my own delusions. Thanks for the reminder.

[theleelajoker]

2 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

OK Mr, illusion. Well said. I will stay out of people's conversations and attend to my own delusions. Thanks for the reminder.

 Not a single word in my post is directed towards what you should or should not do.

I simply made my experience transparent.

 

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, theleelajoker said:

 Not a single word in my post is directed towards what you should or should not do.

I simply made my experience transparent.

 

Not a single thing in my reply stated I was following any instructions. They were simply my own decisions.

[theleelajoker]

But there is no you. How can it be "your" decision?

Edited November 15 by theleelajoker

[James123]

1 minute ago, theleelajoker said:

But there is no you. How can it be "your" decision?

Head shot!