Is enlightenment even possible?

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

If we're talking awakening, that is about Consciousness rather that growth.

All growth leads to Awakening. 

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

The Karmic substance is what goes on, certain tendencies and conditionings, 5 shealths theory again, your food body and mental body do not go on, the energy/etheric and Bliss body go on, Karma is stored in the energy body, it goes with Atman, via your spiritual/consciousness level at physical death, you either consciously or unconsciously choose another Body...

There is Sanchita Karma, this is the total Karmic Substance of all Your Incarnations, then there is Prarabdha Karma which is the alloted Karma for this incarnation, the Enlightenment process is to first eliminate or burn of the Praabdha Karma then the Sanchita karma, once that is done, no more incarnations, no more individuality, no more birth/death/rebirth for You, You merge with Absolute and its over...

No Karma, no form is possible, no physical existence in any form is possible, cause and effect cycles are incased in every physical form, only Humans can be conscious of this process and be either below or above it..that is the point of our existence, to explore this Possibility and Potential so Absolute can experience itself...

Maybe it's like that but then all the well of reincarnation starts in one point, the absolute, and finish in the same point, that means that it will restart again. Then there is not end of the well, is ending of one cycle, but ultimately you are what exist, and the cycles can't finish. 

About sanchita karma, let's see, if In some moment the cycle began, it was absolutely basic, then, where is the difference between any sanchita karma and another? Seems like trying to grab personality, identity. 

About only humans can be conscious, maybe in this dimension, but could be many other dimensions much more conscious, and being human is just a step, not the end of the well. 

[UnbornTao]

11 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

All growth leads to Awakening. 

How about: growth is one thing, awakening another.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

How about: growth is one thing, awakening another.

The only direction a person can evolve towards is Awakening. There is no other direction to evolve into. All roads lead to Rome as they say. 

Edited November 11 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

If someone masters peak music, he/she will start speaking about God. 

If someone masters peak mathematics, he/she will start speaking about God. 

If someone masters peak medicine, he/she will speak about God. 

If someone masters peak sex, he/she will speak about God. 

If someone masters peak martial arts, he/she will discover God. 

There are many different forms in which you can realize God.

In whatever field you reach the highest levels of mastery, you're bound to reach God there. 

 

Edited November 11 by Salvijus

[Ishanga]

20 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe it's like that but then all the well of reincarnation starts in one point, the absolute, and finish in the same point, that means that it will restart again. Then there is not end of the well, is ending of one cycle, but ultimately you are what exist, and the cycles can't finish. 

About sanchita karma, let's see, if In some moment the cycle began, it was absolutely basic, then, where is the difference between any sanchita karma and another? Seems like trying to grab personality, identity. 

About only humans can be conscious, maybe in this dimension, but could be many other dimensions much more conscious, and being human is just a step, not the end of the well. 

Well existence is infinte right, but there are ends to all cycles, even this universe which is 14 billion yrs old they say will end, so big bang all over again I don't know.. but our cycle will end of form creation and dying then coming back, its evolution, via that evolution eventually identity and personality are created..

Maybe somewhere there are other forms more evolved than us, apparently there are higher realms of existence, what is here on this earth is very basic, there is a place where Guru/Rishis go to after there physical death and realms above that, so it been long investigated and recorded and there to be discovered and such...

Loka means Dimension or Realm..

 

[Ishanga]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

If someone masters peak music, he/she will start speaking about God. 

If someone masters peak mathematics, he/she will start speaking about God. 

If someone masters peak medicine, he/she will speak about God. 

There are many different forms in which you can realize God.

In whatever field you reach the highest levels of mastery, you're bound to reach God there. 

 

This is so, eventually all Desire lead to Absolute, You always want to be More than what You are already, Musk want to be more of what he is now, if this stops for You in your Experience, then  your either numb or wanting to end it...which is low level of Awareness or Consciousness..

[Breakingthewall]

30 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

apparently there are higher realms of existence, what is here on this earth is very basic

Almost sure that's right. Then when they say that you could finish the cycle being human, maybe they are overestimating what's being human, or underestimating the possibilities of existence 

[UnbornTao]

59 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The only direction a person can evolve towards is Awakening. There is no other direction to evolve into. All roads lead to Rome as they say. 

There are roads to Greece too  

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

None of that is true, it is getting your nature as it is.

Which is non-duality.

 

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

And you're taking about something else. People like Nisargadatta and Chogyam Trungpa had addictions and neuroses, they didn't master their mind. Some enlightened warrior throughout history likely killed people. Jesus apparently had anger management issues. Realizing your nature isn't mutually inclusive of healing, transformation or mind mastery, but it can facilitate those pursuits, I've heard. 

It's true that there are many aspects of the mind that are not instantly transformed as you reach a non-dual baseline. You don't instantly become a saint. You can be flawed in many ways. However, you don't torture yourself over it. You have let go of your attachments and disidentified with the entire game. The character can be flawed, but you are not it.

You can define enlightenment as the disidentification that happens when all attachments are let go, going from being identified with the personal self to the trans-personal self. But that's not very easy to measure "scientifically", through observation. That's where self-referential thoughts at baseline comes in.

Edited Monday at 06:55 PM by Carl-Richard

[zurew]

@UnbornTao Do you have any book recommendation that roughly describes what you mean by enlightenment?

As a sidenote - to elevate the productivity of the convos around enlightenment it would be probably helpful to make actualizers to read into the same materials, so at the very least those can be used as a reference for wtf is being talked about.

The idea that some of you guys need to start almost all conversations from scratch and you need to establish what is meant by awakening and enlightenment is a job that is close to impossible - but if you can refer to a given book or a work, that gives the advantage of communicating with hopefully more clarity and in more detail. There is just too much nuance and detail that needs to be described in any given thread to even lay down the groundwork to start the conversation.

 

I would say the exact same thing for more philosophical convos - it would be good to have familiarity with the same set of concepts and not using private language that no one understands, but of course, again ,this would require us reading and engaging with the same set of books and materials in detail.

Edited November 11 by zurew

[Sugarcoat]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

There's much more than 2 meditations, plus meditation is not a proper word to use, someone sitting with eyes closed, you think they are meditating, but they are sleeping, it doesn't reflect what we need to understand.. We want to be Meditative, or at Ease wtihin ourselves, that is we are naturally Accepting what is, Responding to what is, Living Now naturally, this Ease is no stress environment, the stress response is stopped, and You have great Clarity of Reality, You see what is as it is, no judgement, egoic involvement or wants/needs flitering Your Perception.. You just see the Reality, via this You feel Bliss within, so Bliss is a path and by product of Enlightenment, to get Bliss, start from where You are at, get Peaceful of Your Own nature, watching breath will not get You there by itself, its too basic, that will just in ways calm you down, You want Peace as a Natural Experience, no matter what is going on, heart beat lowers, less sleep needed, and more at Ease, then from there naturally You will rise up to Blissful states as Natural occurence. 

Try Isha Kyria, a simple 12 min practice, then move up the ladder to Inner Engineering and Shambhavi Maha Mudra practice which is 21 min,,

Thanks for the suggestions

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Where are you in the body? When you die body dies, but where are you?

It feels like I’m in the skull

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

There are roads to Greece too  

I'm flabbergasted

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

I think that is because it's extremely difficult stop the identification with the relative self, then you can't even imagine the reality without this, but in another hand all the traditions talk about reincarnation, then maybe it's real in a sense, like the master lines of your structure restart again like an evolutive path

It is extremely difficult yes. 
Maybe it’s true maybe not who knows

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

The final goal is not even that important. What's important is that growth is possible. And that it's available every day. Every day you can dive deeper into peace. Every day you can dive deeper into wisdom. Every day you can ascend into the higher realms of God. Every day can be a new adventure that slowly takes your life from good, to better, to best. The process itself is fulfilling regardless of the outcome. The outcome is always good anyways when you live with God. 

Right. There’s always room for improvement.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, zurew said:

As a sidenote - to elevate the productivity of the convos around enlightenment it would be probably helpful to make actualizers to read into the same materials, so at the very least those can be used as a reference for wtf is being talked about.

Spontaneous Thought and Vulnerability to Mood Disorders: The Dark Side of the Wandering Mind - https://doi.org/10.1177/2167702615622383

Self-referential processing in our brain—A meta-analysis of imaging studies on the self - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2005.12.002

Functional-Anatomic Fractionation of the Brain's Default Network - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2010.02.005

[zurew]

20 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Spontaneous Thought and Vulnerability to Mood Disorders: The Dark Side of the Wandering Mind - https://doi.org/10.1177/2167702615622383

Self-referential processing in our brain—A meta-analysis of imaging studies on the self - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2005.12.002

Functional-Anatomic Fractionation of the Brain's Default Network - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2010.02.005

Cool, ty.

Edited Monday at 07:34 PM by zurew

[James123]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

It feels like I’m in the skull

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

It feels like I’m in the skull

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

In the skull, there is a pink mind, where are you in that?

[Javfly33]

4 minutes ago, James123 said:

In the skull, there is a pink mind, where are you in that?

Is a tricky question because there is no you, so how could you be anywhere? 😂