Is enlightenment even possible?

[Sugarcoat]

3 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

There are 2 meditations, 1-pointed and 0-pointed.

1 pointed, best is breath. Be the breath 24x7

When you are good at this, drop the breath and be one and witness everything

First takes abundant effort and the second is completely effortless

In Buddhism, these are known as shamantha and vipassana

Thanks 

[Sugarcoat]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

What is reincarnation? Something that is going to happen after this life? Happen to whom? What is the difference with a baby that born today or me borning after my death? Everything that exists is the absolute taking a form, then what is the difference between a rat that right now is existing and my next incarnation? Really I don't understand that about reincarnation , if I had many incarnations in the past, how many could be? Millions? I can't remember them, then what is the difference with no one? Maybe all about reincarnation is a lie and all is just a religion, same than Islam or that about Thor and Odin, just tales. 

Reincarnation of some kind sounds more reasonable than believing death is like forever deep sleep. Why would only one lifetime appear for you in all of eternity?

[Sugarcoat]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Thoughts that are "strongly" focused around the personal self. They tend to use propositions like "I/me/my". For example, thoughts identifying oneself with a personality trait ("I am a curious person") or thoughts identifying some personal experience you have had ("I went to the store yesterday").

They tend to be repetitive and negative when they focus on unfulfilled goals ("I went to the store yesterday and forgot to buy milk, damn it"), and more generally threats to your survival ("why did I say that stupid thing?", "she hates me, damn it", "what if I fail at the test?", "I am a failure").

So it's not that enlightenment makes you unable to think. You will be very capable of thinking productive thoughts, planning, solving problems. It's just that your resting state will be virtually free from self-concerned and generally repetitive and negative thoughts. You can still think about yourself if it's relevant to some task, but your resting state will not be a fruitless circling of personal stories, worries and rumination.

Okay I have plenty of them lol. 
 

Sounds reasonable that enlightenment would eliminate them

[Ishanga]

1 minute ago, Sugarcoat said:

Reincarnation of some kind sounds more reasonable than believing death is like forever deep sleep. Why would only one lifetime appear for you in all of eternity?

Breakingthewall is not considering Karma, residual action creating conditioning on your present form, so you were a rat 1000yrs ago, karma was created, then You become a cat, then horse, then this or that, then a human, the karma comes along, so its an evolution, fundamentally we are Absolute, but in form we are relative to our awareness and karma and such things.

Once physicality is in place, there are cycles in place, Awareness (as a form of Intelligence in and of itself) cures all of this, karmic substance and such..but without Karma no physicality can exist, no form can exist, if no form exist, then Absolute does not experience itself, its all theory and potential, no expression or experience..

[Carl-Richard]

52 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

But that's more "this and that", not enlightenment. Maybe freedom from unwanted behavior patterns is facilitated as a result, but what you are talking about is a different pursuit, better called healing, growth, or mind mastery.

Beyond plausible or intelligent chatter, the truth of the matter is that most of us are ignorant of this nature. So, that's useful to acknowledge. Certainly there haven't been many profoundly conscious individuals throughout history, which serves as a reference to keep us humble and balanced in our self-assessment. We seem to want to proclaim enlightenment too quickly with every unusual perception or experience, even if positive and seemingly transcendental.

Enlightenment is baseline non-duality. Non-duality is a lack of distinctions, notably between self and other. Self-referential thinking is a central mechanism of how your mind makes distinctions between self and other. Ergo, non-duality at baseline means lack of self-referential thoughts at baseline. And with that, comes a certain change in experience. It's simply the case that enlightened people don't spend their time at rest worrying, ruminating or torturing themselves with what ifs or could have beens or should have beens.

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, Ishanga said:

Breakingthewall is not considering Karma, residual action creating conditioning on your present form, so you were a rat 1000yrs ago, karma was created, then You become a cat, then horse, then this or that, then a human, the karma comes along, so its an evolution, fundamentally we are Absolute, but in form we are relative to our awareness and karma and such things.

Once physicality is in place, there are cycles in place, Awareness (as a form of Intelligence in and of itself) cures all of this, karmic substance and such..but without Karma no physicality can exist, no form can exist, if no form exist, then Absolute does not experience itself, its all theory and potential, no expression or experience..

Karma is a tricky term

[James123]

@Sugarcoat @Carl-Richard @Ishanga

End of argument.

 

 

Edited November 11 by James123

[Ishanga]

10 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Thanks 

There's much more than 2 meditations, plus meditation is not a proper word to use, someone sitting with eyes closed, you think they are meditating, but they are sleeping, it doesn't reflect what we need to understand.. We want to be Meditative, or at Ease wtihin ourselves, that is we are naturally Accepting what is, Responding to what is, Living Now naturally, this Ease is no stress environment, the stress response is stopped, and You have great Clarity of Reality, You see what is as it is, no judgement, egoic involvement or wants/needs flitering Your Perception.. You just see the Reality, via this You feel Bliss within, so Bliss is a path and by product of Enlightenment, to get Bliss, start from where You are at, get Peaceful of Your Own nature, watching breath will not get You there by itself, its too basic, that will just in ways calm you down, You want Peace as a Natural Experience, no matter what is going on, heart beat lowers, less sleep needed, and more at Ease, then from there naturally You will rise up to Blissful states as Natural occurence. 

Try Isha Kyria, a simple 12 min practice, then move up the ladder to Inner Engineering and Shambhavi Maha Mudra practice which is 21 min,,

[Carl-Richard]

@James123 Yup. Fear of death is a reflection of the ultimate attachment, to life itself.

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Reincarnation of some kind sounds more reasonable than believing death is like forever deep sleep. Why would only one lifetime appear for you in all of eternity?

The thing is that from a relative perspective you are this concrete experience, and from an absolute perspective you are everything, you are the being . Then, who reincarnates? The being? The being is already everything. Then who reincarnates is the relative you, but the relative you is a relative construction like any other relative construction, then when dissapear, dissapear. It's very difficult to see because it's difficult to remove the indetification with this experience. 

[Sugarcoat]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The thing is that from a relative perspective you are this concrete experience, and from an absolute perspective you are everything, you are the being . Then, who reincarnates? The being? The being is already everything. Then who reincarnates is the relative you, but the relative you is a relative construction like any other relative construction, then when dissapear, dissapear. It's very difficult to see because it's difficult to remove the indetification with this experience. 

When I speak of reincarnation I speak in relative terms ofc. So in the relative sense some kind of reincarnation makes sense to me. Doesn’t necessarily have to be something continuous that keeps on living like a soul

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

When I speak of reincarnation I speak in relative terms ofc. So in the relative sense some kind of reincarnation makes sense to me. Doesn’t necessarily have to be something continuous that keeps on living like a soul

But who reincarnates? The relative you is a creation, is defined by genetic, environment, perception, experience. If all that ends, what remains? Just existence, but existence is everything. 

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

But who reincarnates? The relative you is a creation, is defined by genetic, environment, perception, experience. If all that ends, what remains? Just existence, but existence is everything. 

Not that anything remains per se, but in the same way that I feel like I am here bound to this particular body, when it dies, I will appear again bound to another body. If that makes sense. Doesn’t require anything to “transition” like a soul (maybe those exist though I don’t know)

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Not that anything remains per se, but in the same way that I feel like I am here bound to this particular body, when it dies, I will appear again bound to another body. If that makes sense. Doesn’t require anything to “transition” like a soul (maybe those exist though I don’t know)

Where are you in the body? When you die body dies, but where are you?

[UnbornTao]

43 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Enlightenment is baseline non-duality. Non-duality is a lack of distinctions, notably between self and other. Self-referential thinking is a central mechanism of how your mind makes distinctions between self and other. Ergo, non-duality at baseline means lack of self-referential thoughts at baseline. And with that, comes a certain change in experience. It's simply the case that enlightened people don't spend their time at rest worrying, ruminating or torturing themselves with what ifs or could have beens or should have beens.

None of that is true, it is getting your nature as it is.

And you're taking about something else. People like Nisargadatta and Chogyam Trungpa had addictions and neuroses, they didn't master their mind. Some enlightened warrior throughout history likely killed people. Jesus apparently had anger management issues. Realizing your nature isn't mutually inclusive of healing, transformation or mind mastery, but it can facilitate those pursuits, I've heard. 

Edited November 11 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

In terms of individuals, most of them die without having questioned themselves much, or before achieving any breakthrough. 

Self enquiry is not the only way to grow. 

[Ishanga]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

But who reincarnates? The relative you is a creation, is defined by genetic, environment, perception, experience. If all that ends, what remains? Just existence, but existence is everything. 

The Karmic substance is what goes on, certain tendencies and conditionings, 5 shealths theory again, your food body and mental body do not go on, the energy/etheric and Bliss body go on, Karma is stored in the energy body, it goes with Atman, via your spiritual/consciousness level at physical death, you either consciously or unconsciously choose another Body...

There is Sanchita Karma, this is the total Karmic Substance of all Your Incarnations, then there is Prarabdha Karma which is the alloted Karma for this incarnation, the Enlightenment process is to first eliminate or burn of the Praabdha Karma then the Sanchita karma, once that is done, no more incarnations, no more individuality, no more birth/death/rebirth for You, You merge with Absolute and its over...

No Karma, no form is possible, no physical existence in any form is possible, cause and effect cycles are incased in every physical form, only Humans can be conscious of this process and be either below or above it..that is the point of our existence, to explore this Possibility and Potential so Absolute can experience itself...

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I feel like I am here bound to this particular body,

I think that is because it's extremely difficult stop the identification with the relative self, then you can't even imagine the reality without this, but in another hand all the traditions talk about reincarnation, then maybe it's real in a sense, like the master lines of your structure restart again like an evolutive path

[UnbornTao]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

Self enquiry is not the only way to grow. 

If we're talking awakening, that is about Consciousness rather that growth.

Edited November 11 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

My conclusion is that it’s possible. But still a very low chance. But with extreme dedication

The final goal is not even that important. What's important is that growth is possible. And that it's available every day. Every day you can dive deeper into peace. Every day you can dive deeper into wisdom. Every day you can ascend into the higher realms of God. Every day can be a new adventure that slowly takes your life from good, to better, to best. The process itself is fulfilling regardless of the outcome. The outcome is always good anyways when you live with God.