Is enlightenment even possible?

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, Sugarcoat said:

Yes

Beats trying to get drunk.

[Sugarcoat]

@Princess Arabia ok

[Javfly33]

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

That's a fantasy. The natural destination of life isn't enlightenment. 

 

Lol Bro.

Enlightment = Life

Of course the natural destination is realization.

Is not that is the natural, is that until realization of course we have to play this theatre. 

Until that point you keep dreaming incarnations, which is what is happening right now.

@Sugarcoat Honestly with all due respect but I have to say it for the evolution of the people here, most of the forum members you see here which say they are Enlightened will reincarnate, guaranteed. Do not trust them if you actually want real Enlighment. 

Realization is not a trophy or something like that, is much bigger than that, is trascendental and the game ends when you achieve. Lots of souls still want to play more games 🤣 so keep the wheel going baby. Just keep yourself out of it if you want this to be the last one. 

Edited November 11 by Javfly33

[Sugarcoat]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Honestly with all due respect but I have to say it for the evolution of the people here, most of the forum members you see here which say they are Enlightened will reincarnate, guaranteed. Do not trust them if you actually want real Enlighment. 

Realization is not a trophy or something like that, is much bigger than that, is trascendental and the game ends when you achieve. Lots of souls still want to play more games 🤣 so keep the wheel going baby. Just keep yourself out of it if you want this to be the last one. 

I don’t see many at all claiming to be enlightened here actually.

Im gonna start meditating. Just a bit unsure about the best technique. I’m thinking just simple focusing my attention on the breath, but maybe there are “better” methods.

[Sugarcoat]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There are certainly several ways to interpret "a moment of sudden religious insight or awakening". But I would posit that many of these do technically include a significant experience of oneness or non-duality, which again has varying degrees of profundity, which you could actually quantify: the frequency of self-referential thoughts (self-referential thoughts over time). The fewer self-referential thoughts, the more profound the experience.

You could place such experiences on a continuum, which technically stretches through all of human experience, even the most negative aspects, down to the deepest levels of depression, despair, psychotic self-hatred and terror. But of course, we're most interested in the upper parts of the continuum, and for that, I would include for example (from low to high):

• awe experiences (e.g. being struck by profound beauty, mindful nature experiences)
• deeply concentrated states with high energy (e.g. flow states, musical trances, sex, some psychedelic states) or profound stillness (e.g. seated meditation states)
• highly transformative experiences that people would rate as more profound than the previous experiences, even sex and psychedelics (read about this e.g. here), which is probably what most people would refer to as "proper" awakening experiences
• and of course enlightenment itself where self-referential thoughts are virtually eliminated at baseline.

I understand the compulsion to scoff at these "lower" experiences and not want to include them in the concept of awakening (because they're not "spiritual" enough"), but if you want to be rigorous and use the measure of self-referential thoughts (which is arguably "the" measure of non-duality), there is no consistent reason to make a typological distinction between them. It's simply a continuum of more self-referential thoughts to less self-referential thoughts.

I think this scoffing tendency is actually more about a spiritual "aesthetic" (call it New Age) than a substantial point. For example, you would probably be more likely to perceive awakening experiences associated with closed-eye meditation focusing on the breath as more "legitimate" than somebody sitting on a mountain top and taking in the view, or hell in Church taking in the sermon. But these are only differences in form.

While some forms (e.g. techniques) may be more conducive to elevating one's consciousness, as you know, non-duality itself is beyond form, and in the final analysis, it should not matter where you are having the experience. You can be more or less skeptical of people's claims depending on which forms are present, but regardless, the experience is still possible irrespective of forms.

And as for forms, as stated in my previous post, we are naturally inclined towards these experiences, as humans. They are our evolutionary bedrock. Self-referential thinking is a mindblowningly new invention; some estimates say only 50-70k years old. It would only be surprising if we were not able to slip back into these primordial habits of existing beyond the self-reflective self. In fact, it's surprising that we're not slipping back constantly.

Or actually, it's not so surprising when you compare the amount of thoughts (in general) between modern people and pre-modern tribal people. I remember seeing a figure of 60k thoughts vs. 1-6k thoughts, however, the 60k number could be dubious (here is an internet rabbit hole about that). According to the same dubious source (although my own reading generally agrees with it), most of these thoughts are repetitive (85%) and negative (79%), which skews towards self-referential thoughts. In other words, modern society is essentially a collective unenlightenment practice.

 

Survival, especially in modern society, seems to select for that in a big way (thinking a lot about ourselves; self-referential thinking), at least how things are now.

 

Yup. That's somewhere on the upper parts of continuum like I suggested above.

 

It's usally not permanent. Like said with the "letting go"/attachment business, it's usually not as simple as putting yourself in high consciousness states. The real hurdle is the attachments. The attachments keep you returning to the lower states.

What are self referential thoughts?

Thanks for sharing. I’ll have to reread that to really take it in.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Honestly with all due respect but I have to say it for the evolution of the people here, most of the forum members you see here which say they are Enlightened will reincarnate, guaranteed. Do not trust them if you actually want real Enlighment. 

What is reincarnation? Something that is going to happen after this life? Happen to whom? What is the difference with a baby that born today or me borning after my death? Everything that exists is the absolute taking a form, then what is the difference between a rat that right now is existing and my next incarnation? Really I don't understand that about reincarnation , if I had many incarnations in the past, how many could be? Millions? I can't remember them, then what is the difference with no one? Maybe all about reincarnation is a lie and all is just a religion, same than Islam or that about Thor and Odin, just tales. 

[James123]

6 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Just a bit unsure about the best technique.

Sit in darkness and silence. Long sitting is the key. 

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, James123 said:

Sit in darkness and silence. Long sitting is the key. 

That is what I was thinking. With only my small lamp on. 

[James123]

Just now, Sugarcoat said:

That is what I was thinking. With only my small lamp on. 

Sit in completely dark and complete silence. It is much easier to realize the thoughts are not You.

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, James123 said:

Sit in completely dark and complete silence. It is much easier to realize the thoughts are not You.

Okay. Why is darkness necessary 

[James123]

9 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Okay. Why is darkness necessary 

Because it is you.

[Ishanga]

@Sugarcoat I'm curious, have You found Your Answer, after 15 pages of replies???

 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

What are self referential thoughts?

Thoughts that are "strongly" focused around the personal self. They tend to use propositions like "I/me/my". For example, thoughts identifying oneself with a personality trait ("I am a curious person") or thoughts identifying some personal experience you have had ("I went to the store yesterday").

They tend to be repetitive and negative when they focus on unfulfilled goals ("I went to the store yesterday and forgot to buy milk, damn it"), and more generally threats to your survival ("why did I say that stupid thing?", "she hates me, damn it", "what if I fail at the test?", "I am a failure").

So it's not that enlightenment makes you unable to think. You will be very capable of thinking productive thoughts, planning, solving problems. It's just that your resting state will be virtually free from self-concerned and generally repetitive and negative thoughts. You can still think about yourself if it's relevant to some task, but your resting state will not be a fruitless circling of personal stories, worries and rumination.

Edited November 11 by Carl-Richard

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Because it is you.

😂

[Ishanga]

19 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Thoughts that are "strongly" focused around the personal self. They tend to use propositions like "I/me/my". For example, thoughts identifying oneself with a personality trait ("I am a curious person") or thoughts identifying some personal experience you have had ("I went to the store yesterday").

They tend to be repetitive and negative when they focus on unfulfilled goals ("I went to the store yesterday and forgot to buy milk, damn it"), and more generally threats to your survival ("why did I say that stupid thing?", "she hates me, damn it", "what if I fail at the test?", "I am a failure").

So it's not that enlightenment makes you unable to think. You will be very capable of thinking productive thoughts, planning, solving problems. It's just that your resting state will be virtually free from self-concerned and generally repetitive and negative thoughts. You can still think about yourself if it's relevant to some task, but your resting state will not be a fruitless circling of personal stories, worries and rumination.

Well Said!

[UnbornTao]

22 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's just that your resting state will be virtually free from self-concerned and generally repetitive and negative thoughts. You can still think about yourself if it's relevant to some task, but your resting state will not be a fruitless circling of personal stories, worries and rumination.

But that's more "this and that", not enlightenment. Maybe freedom from unwanted behavior patterns is facilitated as a result, but what you are talking about is a different pursuit, better called healing, growth, or mind mastery.

Beyond plausible or intelligent chatter, the truth of the matter is that most of us are ignorant of this nature. So, that's useful to acknowledge. Certainly there haven't been many profoundly conscious individuals throughout history, which serves as a reference to keep us humble and balanced in our self-assessment. We seem to want to proclaim enlightenment too quickly with every unusual perception or experience, even if positive and seemingly transcendental.

[UnbornTao]

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Lol Bro.

Enlightment = Life

Of course the natural destination is realization.

Is not that is the natural, is that until realization of course we have to play this theatre. 

Until that point you keep dreaming incarnations, which is what is happening right now.

@Sugarcoat Honestly with all due respect but I have to say it for the evolution of the people here, most of the forum members you see here which say they are Enlightened will reincarnate, guaranteed. Do not trust them if you actually want real Enlighment. 

Realization is not a trophy or something like that, is much bigger than that, is trascendental and the game ends when you achieve. Lots of souls still want to play more games 🤣 so keep the wheel going baby. Just keep yourself out of it if you want this to be the last one. 

You'd have to clarify what you mean by that. For most people, they just die without having had insight into their natures, much less a "full-blown" awakening. That is not what humanity is up to as a whole.

I try my best not to talk in terms of hearsay or cosmologies, so no reincarnation; we don't even know what our actual present body is, its nature, much less one that we're presumably going to incarnate into in next lives. This notion exists because you've heard of it elsewhere and adopted it as true.

[UnbornTao]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

If we look at the process of desire itself, all humans are secretly longing for the highest good in their life. For some it means money, for some it means relationships, for some it means a carrier etc. Everyone has their own idea of what the highest good in life is.

Not sure that's true; could be. 

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Yet the only place that desire can find its fulfillment is in God, so it's only a question of time until that desire gets realized. And it will get realized because that desire does not come from ego, the desire for God can only come from God itself. And God will not fail to achieve his desires. 

In terms of individuals, most of them die without having questioned themselves much, or before achieving any breakthrough. 

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I don’t see many at all claiming to be enlightened here actually.

Im gonna start meditating. Just a bit unsure about the best technique. I’m thinking just simple focusing my attention on the breath, but maybe there are “better” methods.

There are 2 meditations, 1-pointed and 0-pointed.

1 pointed, best is breath. Be the breath 24x7

When you are good at this, drop the breath and be the one witnessing everything

First takes abundant effort and the second is completely effortless

In Buddhism, these are known as shamantha and vipassana

Edited November 11 by gettoefl

[Sugarcoat]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

@Sugarcoat I'm curious, have You found Your Answer, after 15 pages of replies???

 

My conclusion is that it’s possible. But still a very low chance. But with extreme dedication