Is enlightenment even possible?

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@PurpleTree I am listening

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@PurpleTree I am listening

I dont even understand your argument for free will. Just because you think you have free doesn’t mean it’s true.

[Arthogaan]

7 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

I am listening

 

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Just because you think you have free doesn’t mean it’s true.

Both free will and determinism assume a separate being to which events happen deterministically or a separate being that is able to make conscious decisions to navigate through this environment.

Enlightenment is the end of that separate-being-illusion therefore both notions collapse and don't make sense. Reality is just spontaneously and intelligently unfolding.

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Arthogaan said:

 

Both free will and determinism assume a separate being to which events happen deterministically or a separate being that is able to make conscious decisions to navigate through this environment.

Enlightenment is the end of that separate-being-illusion therefore both notions collapse and don't make sense. Reality is just spontaneously and intelligently unfolding.

Did i say anything about determinism though? I just questioned free will

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@PurpleTree and do you understand my argument for consciousness? Per analogy it's exactly the same argument. Basic quality of consciousness is free will. It means that you are aware of choices you make and choice is when you choose consciously. That doesn't mean that there are no obstacles or limitations of what you can choose but that is not the point here. I know Bernardo Kastrup's argument for free will and determinism being basically the same on meta - level -  that you can do what you will but you cannot will what you will and I agree with that to some extent.

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@PurpleTree and do you understand my argument for consciousness? Per analogy it's exactly the same argument. Basic quality of consciousness is free will. It means that you are aware of choices you make and choice is when you choose consciously. That doesn't mean that there are no obstacles or limitations of what you can choose but that is not the point here. I know Bernardo Kastrup's argument for free will and determinism being basically the same on meta - level -  that you can do what you will but you cannot will what you will and I agree with that to some extent.

Consciousness doesn’t really exist.

(seemingly) that’s what i learned from non duality speakers.

 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@PurpleTree so are you unconscious now?

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@PurpleTree so are you unconscious now?

No because i’m egoic really but what i heard my gurus say (non dual studs)

Is that when the separate self collapses, subject object collapses too, there is no consciousness, because consciousness implies something being conscious of something, there is just what is, nothing appearing as whatever.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@PurpleTree before you reach Ramana's Maharshi and Nisargadatta's Mahataj state of non-dual parabrahman ground yourself in your normal, sober experience, in what is. That's just an advice..

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@PurpleTree erratum: Maharaj. 

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@PurpleTree before you reach Ramana's Maharshi and Nisargadatta's Mahataj state of non-dual parabrahman ground yourself in your normal, sober experience, in what is. That's just an advice..

There is no free will to do that. But thanks anyway.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@PurpleTree so you are forced by nothingness..., so be it. If you ok with that I am ok as well😊. Good night (it's late here)😘.

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@PurpleTree so you are forced by nothingness..., so be it. If you ok with that I am ok as well😊. Good night (it's late here)😘.

We all are i guess just muppets. Which can be very scary for sure. No control. Good night

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, gettoefl said:

I am just happy one has made it and can point it out simply

There is no need to follow just take their pointings and put in the work

That's what paths like A Course in Miracles do

Helps me greatly even though I know all paths and all mystics point to the exact same truth

Depends of the perspective. From a perspective, Jesus was evil, a demon who threatened with hell again and again if you don't follow his teachings. Then the Catholic church in his name built an empire on the terror of hell and the reward/punishment dichotomy, all of which were lies, inventions to manipulate people and kill mental freedom, producing a lot of generations of repressed people terrified by the hell, then it's bastard son, the Islam, powered the punishment and created a philosophy of fear, repression and hypocrisy. 

Edited November 5 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

How about physical pain and ailments? Is that suffering different if you’re enlightened or in an enlightened “state” ? Maybe you can’t answer this but I’ve been curious about it

I don't know, I guess that if you are totally open to the absolute all time the physical pain could be in background, same than hunger, and you are not attached to them . There are monks who burn themselves alive without moving a finger

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I would say yes

Then it's definitely possible. The trick then is to elevate your consciousness to the point where you notice every attachment you have and how it creates a feeling of resistance. Once you encounter the resistance, you have the choice to keep resisting or let it go. Of course you always have that choice, but generally, you are unaware of the resistance, so you unconsciously keep resisting, or you don't want to let it go.

Another subtle trick is that you eventually have to let go of the techniques you use to elevate your consciousness. There is no enlightenment with attachment to enlightenment (techniques or otherwise). The simplest way to do this is to meditate for select times during the day and that is your only practice. Then when you enter states of no mind, you let go of the practice.

It doesn't matter if you use focused techniques, devotional techniques or self-inquiry. All of it causes some form of resistance if you're attached, and it's a big magic trick you have to pull off to get off at the right time and land in enlightenment.

Edited November 6 by Carl-Richard

[PurpleTree]

Smh it’s so hopeless 😐

[Princess Arabia]

8 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

How about physical pain and ailments? Is that suffering different if you’re enlightened or in an enlightened “state” ? Maybe you can’t answer this but I’ve been curious about it

Why is this even a topic for discussion. When you're constipated and suffering on the toilet because your ass hurts, do we make posts about that. Still suffering and pain. When we have to stand in line forever for whatever and our feet hurt like hell, do we make posts about that. Geesh, we suffer constantly about mundane shit and don't think twice to allow those times to pass through, but we're up in here everyday talking 'bout suffering.

Ever notice nobody really talk about what they're suffering about, only that they're suffering. It's like it's hip to suffer these days. Nobody suffers all the time, but nobody says anything about the things that make them happy. This suffering shit is getting quite monotonous. But we're still up on a forum everyday talking shit.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

If anybody thinks that all this enlightement is a kind of escape from life challenges than one complete misses the point and belives in some lalaland. I don't know what sort of a neo-nondual bullshit some people listen here, with all my respect. Besides, even true nondual teachings require a lot of intellectual and emotional maturity to be able to integrate those. The line between a very deep experience of reality at its fundamental level and the possibility of going crazy due to the disintegration of the personality is very thin. This is jnana yoga, the yoga of knowledge where the foundation is the integrated, at the highest level, operation of logical reasoning and highly developed intuition with simultaneous emotional super-awareness. Along with kriya yoga and a few other tantric practices, this is a path for the few who are ready for it. These are the facts and no amount of conjuring reality will change that. I am sorry.

[Ajay0]

On 11/4/2024 at 3:52 PM, Sugarcoat said:

I don’t mean to sound negative but I’m wondering if this enlightenment thing is even possible. I’ve done some self inquiry, contemplation, meditation, just a tiny bit psychedelics, have had maybe one natural glimpse, and have shed many layers to the self over the years, but it’s still alive so in one way I haven’t gotten anywhere. 
 

Look at Leo for example, he is a prime example. Isn’t he all about enlightenment? He has probably done so so much more practice than me, but he is still not enlightened, he is still operating from a human ego. Or am I wrong about this? If one of the most dedicated people in this isn’t even enlightened what is the hope for the rest of us who might not be equally as dedicated? How much does one have to do? Is it just a matter of keep trying? Any success stories ?

Even Siddhartha took around six years to attain enlightenment or Buddhahood.

He studied from the best teachers around, applied whatever he learnt passionately, endured privations which would weaken the resolve of lesser beings, and eventually reached enlightenment.

There were many who died and still die trying to reach Mt.Everest, the highest peak in the world or Mt.K2,considered the most dangerous mountain in the world, but this does not meant that they were beyond human capabilities. 

Enlightenent is considered to be the greatest of human achievements due to the perpetual peace and bliss attained, compared to other achievements which will only result in temporary happiness and peace till the next desire arises.

Nothing in life comes free and you have to pay the proper price for it in terms of study, effort and time.