Given the current level of development of our society, is Trump the better choice?

[trenton]

@Inliytened1 I think you're crazy. Here is why.

First of all, Trump literally compares himself to Hitler looking for generals like Hitler had. You seriously think donald trump as a human being is enough to overlook his lies about the 2020 election leading to an attempted coup and the rape allegations he has been found liable for and the 34 felony convictions among other things.

Donald trump is sore loser because he wants to use the presidency to shield himself from all of the felonies that he is objectively guilty of committing. You seriously believe the most dishonest man alive when he says he has nothing to do with project 2025. He also said that he wanted to impose term limits as if he were anti corruption.

Trump's trade wars by placing tariffs on foreign goods hurt the economy in the previous presidency. Trump would be a disaster for the economy and Elon Musk admits it. It is going to be bad for a couple of years as if the economy will rebound. The shock doctrine doesn't work. Historically this approach only takes credit for economic recovery they were not responsible for. Do you think Trickle down economics works?

Long story short Trump is insane and has clear cognitive decline. He will assassinate world leaders with drone strikes like he did last time. He is not a peaceful guy. I could go on forever but I think you get the point.

Trump bad.

[Fountainbleu]

On 11/3/2024 at 4:27 PM, Inliytened1 said:

Let's hear your thoughts.  Right now based on the current level of  development and where we are, can Trump do more for the economy and the security of the nation than Harris?

Right now I'd have to say yes.  I've been on the fence for months until I saw the Joe Rogan interview and got to know Trump more as a person.   The left has been trying to portray him as a Hitler for so long now and demonize the guy but he has already had four years in office and I don't think another four is going to turn him into Adolf.   

If we are looking at the short term (the now) who is really going to pump energy into this nation?  I think ultimately it's going to be Trump.   We've had 4 years of mediocrity and honestly it hasn't been enough.  We'll get 4 more years of the exact same thing if we vote Harris.  Plus with Harris we aren't getting an authentic Harris we are getting her goons.  She will be another figurehead.   We will get wide open borders and we will get crazy inflation (over the span of 4 years - I know it is dipping now).

And we will probably get more wars or leaders that have no respect for the US.   Leo admits that Harris doesn't think for herself but he still wants to go with the democrats because he thinks they are a safer bet and fears Trump's insanity, and that he will become a dictator,  yet what if these fears are an illusion?   I believe the guy when he says he has nothing to do with project 2025.  What if going with the "safe" bet is an illusion and instead leaves you with a nation in a worse state than it was 4 years ago?  Something to think about.

So let's hear your thoughts.  

The thing about Trump is his stance on environmental issues. When it comes to the most pressing priorities—protecting our planet, preserving biodiversity, and ensuring a sustainable future—he falls short. The evidence is clear that the Earth’s well-being, along with saving endangered species and ecosystems, is crucial for our collective survival. Yet, his actions and policies largely sideline these issues.

In my view, any leader’s approach to governance should start with a commitment to protecting our natural world. Without a healthy environment, we compromise everything else. Would love to hear your perspectives on this—what do you think is missing in his approach to environmental stewardship?

[UnbornTao]

What kind of question is that? 

Hitler might have been good for the German economy, but that's really a superficial point and not the issue.

[trenton]

@UnbornTao that is a common myth in history. The nazi miracle economy was based on unsustainable polices that would have crashed anyway. The economic boom was based on slave labor in death camps,, cutting women from unemployment rates,, and stealing gold from targeted groups.. Hitler was awful for the long term economic well being of Germany. 

[Vibes]

21 hours ago, Joshe said:

Thanks! 

Lastly, consider this: Imagine if we're right about Trump and you vote for him. How much would it bother you if we turned out to be right and he actually does the damage some people are worried about? 

At least try to steelman the position so you don't potentially find yourself in that situation. IDK the best documentary or anything but it's all out there, from the horse's mouth. This one is on Prime but not sure how good it is. 

Do the right thing. Vote against hate. 

 

Full Documentary:

 

[Quader]

@zazen Say trump is surrounded by better advisors, you're optimistic about his platform outside of appearances.. He's an antibiotic to the left's stifling decadence which causes the collapse of civilization.. This is the type of stuff that boggles my mind, how are you capable of such mental gymnastry. Ultimately it's not very important but I just find it fascinating to see how intellectualism can be used to justify Trump outside of it being a mistake.

[Jodistrict]

13 minutes ago, trenton said:

@UnbornTao that is a common myth in history. The nazi miracle economy was based on unsustainable polices that would have crashed anyway. The economic boom was based on slave labor in death camps,, cutting women from unemployment rates,, and stealing gold from targeted groups.. Hitler was awful for the long term economic well being of Germany. 

Globalism is based on slave labor in China which creates imbalances in the global system.  Sustainable?

[trenton]

 

27 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Globalism is based on slave labor in China which creates imbalances in the global system.  Sustainable?

@Jodistrict This argument is a whataboutism. You are creating a false choice between nazi economic policies and all failures in the modern economy. Failures in the modern economy is not a defense for nazi Germany. You also assume I agree with all aspects of modern trade. Both can be morally bankrupt and need to change. Your argument is riddled with logical fallacies.

[Gidiot]

Voting trump is a grave mistake.

 

I remember 16’-20’ and it was a constant shitshow. He is so divisive and is the primary reason people are so polarized.  democrats do way better at unity and creating a positive narrative for the country which I think matters beyond the idea that he will improve the economy which he has only said he will bring prices down by drilling more oil which will put us even more in a global warming crisis.

His handling of Covid and overt racism create a hateful environment and a non science based administration

 

i think it’s fine to consider voting for trump but I think if you value consciousness work Kamala is obviously the higher conscious person and it’s not even close so basically you are anti growth voting for the lesser option. Yes we are ready for Kamala no we don’t need to go back to trump we are more mature than that.

also banning abortion nationwide and in various states is such an anti American anti freedom thing which of course conservatives will try to do whether they tell you they won’t or not, they also said they wouldn’t overturn roe v wade so I don’t believe trump the habitual liar when he says he doesn’t know project 2025

 

 

Edited November 5 by Gidiot

[Jacob Morres]

The supreme court gave presidents immunity from the law a few months ago (from a right-leaning supreme court). This part feels dangerous given trump's history and character

he's also regressive on a ton of social issues. like around women's, lgtbq, poc rights. how did we get to a point where abortion became illegal in 2024 (in many states?). muslim ban, travel ban toward some african countries. trans banned from the military etc. 

he's barely pushing society forward. stopping people from immigrating to america is suddenly gonna make america great again? reducing inflation (is this even true?). what are people even resonating with

Edited November 5 by Jacob Morres

[martin_malin]

If Jesus was a U.S. citizen who would he vote for? 


 

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, martin_malin said:

If Jesus was a U.S. citizen who would he vote for? 

Surely he wouldn't choose the guy who spews hate, attacks, and lies every time his mouth opens. Buy hey, you can't tell them nothin'. All the intricate, far-fetched, wishful, fantastical, and deeply fallacious justifications I've learnt about over the past few days have been eye-opening.

I think I mostly figured out the phenomenon of intelligent people voting for Trump. 

• There's something in them that likes Trump but they can't admit it for obvious reasons, even to themselves. So, they have to find a sneaky way to justify their Trump support. I've seen this occur in real time with people I know over the years, where it eventually comes out that they just like him. (This probably doesn't apply to all of them)
• Notice how they can only admit he's 25-50% as bad as he actually is. This is key to their self-deception. If they admitted the full 100%, their reasons for supporting him would be overtly untenable and it'd be obvious they're fools, which they can't allow. (This applies to all of them)

Essentially, they've thoroughly deceived themselves to serve an unconscious bias. It's self-deception at it's finest. 

I used to think it was that they just really hate the left, the woke, the establishment, etc., but now I believe their stubborn refusal to see what is true is a defense mechanism designed to protect their secret, which is, they like Trump. 

There's no reaching them. It's clear to me now that intelligent people who support him don't have sufficient enough awareness. They're too smart to simply reason their way over to Trump. They wind up there by lacking the awareness to know they're bullshitting themselves.

This is the only answer that makes sense. 

Edited November 5 by Joshe

[martin_malin]

24 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 

• Notice how they can only admit he's 25-50% as bad as he actually is. This is key to their self-deception. If they admitted the full 100%, their reasons for supporting him would be overtly untenable and it'd be obvious they're fools, which they can't allow. 

You hit the nail on the head. In the end, you can only judge Trump from your level of consciousness. 
 

[Jodistrict]

3 hours ago, trenton said:

 

@Jodistrict This argument is a whataboutism. You are creating a false choice between nazi economic policies and all failures in the modern economy. Failures in the modern economy is not a defense for nazi Germany. You also assume I agree with all aspects of modern trade. Both can be morally bankrupt and need to change. Your argument is riddled with logical fallacies.

I was just noting the similarity between then and now, and then asked a question.  But I agree that what you read into my response is not logical.  

[pregnantplatypuss]

I’ve been on the fence about this too. @Inliytened1 I appreciate you for creating this thread. it’s given me the space to think.

On where I stand… I don’t agree with the way the democrats have been talking about the first amendment. I like the people around Trump (Tulsi, RFK, Elon, Rogan).. I understand the chance people are taking on him. Frankly, I won’t be devastated if he wins, I'm more devastated we’ve got these shit options! But after careful consideration, I’m voting for Kamala.

Kamala is a weird theater kid. Trump is a bully. Kamala IS the establishment, but just imagine an establishment filled with Trumps. The only reason his personality is palatable is because there aren’t a lot of him. People copy leaders, so let’s not make more of him.

I believe we can still improve America with the right candidate, eventually. The rise of Trump shows us that people need change. To me, he doesn’t deserve to be that vessel of change. Kamala isn’t going to be that change. So I’ll vote for her, preserve the status quo, and try again the next election.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

6 hours ago, martin_malin said:

If Jesus was a U.S. citizen who would he vote for? 


 

Jesus didn't vote that is why they killed him.

[zazen]

9 hours ago, Quader said:

@zazen Say trump is surrounded by better advisors, you're optimistic about his platform outside of appearances.. He's an antibiotic to the left's stifling decadence which causes the collapse of civilization.. This is the type of stuff that boggles my mind, how are you capable of such mental gymnastry. Ultimately it's not very important but I just find it fascinating to see how intellectualism can be used to justify Trump outside of it being a mistake.

If you can control what thoughts can be expressed but claim your opponents are facists,who is closer to facism?

The left have a blindspot to authoritarianism because of such flowery nice sounding language and rhetoric. The right does't have the institutional clout to impose anything close to authoritarianism whilst the left does, so the priority is reigning in the side that does. It's a counterbalance, not a call for the right to be authoritarian themselves.

It's a subtle, insidious form of soft totalitarianism. They want diversity of colour but not of thought. It's like warning about a guy with a butter knife whilst another guy has a knife at your throat ready to cancel you for wrong speak or a microagression. We need to prioritise the danger.

The establishment wants us to think right wing talking points are the danger, which have been institutionally and politically exiled until Trump came on board and Elon bought Twitter. The danger is in leftist ideology through the backing of institutionally captured levers, which have already set up a luxury penthouse in your brain from which to enact their regime.

Modern totalitarianism is invisible. The left believes that because they dress their actions in the language of inclusion and progress, they're immune to becoming the thing they claim to fight. We've seen this before: 20th century regimes draped in red flags also promised liberation and equality, but delivered the opposite. That was the conclusion, to insisting on inclusion for the greater good.

 

Gramsci is a key figure in mainstreaming leftism and Marxist thought in Europe and America. This is why lots of Dems have left the party. Perhaps they’re aware enough to see the actions of their own party, contradict exactly what their ideals supposedly stand for.

Edited November 5 by zazen

[Joshe]

@zazen yeah yeah,  the Democrats are leftists adhering to a strict philosophical code with unwavering discipline and their goal is to ultimately seize power, control, your money, and limit your ability to express yourself. Ok, ok.

Stop fooling yourself. All you can see is strawmen.

[ryandesreu]

No. He tells the more lies and bigger lies than any politician in history. Anyone that believes a word from him at this point is more than just gullible and out of touch with reality.