Given the current level of development of our society, is Trump the better choice?

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

At this point, I'm done trying to convince people. I'm just issuing warnings.

You have been told time and time again, ad nasuem, why Trump is so bad.

At some point you will understand what a mistake you made voting for him. When that happens, I hope you experience the pain of realizing what you did, but also eventually find forgiveness for yourself. 

It's really sad that you have to wish bad things on people that want to vote with the hopes of  a better nation in mind.  It actually makes the democrats look devilish.

[What Am I]

I'll try to give some brief responses. It may be a bit strange though, because I'm going to answer as if spirituality, along with the UFO phenomenon, is objectively real. I'm well aware it's far from a given that everyone shares this opinion, and I'm sure most people wouldn't make major decisions based on it. I've sacrificed a lot and devoted over 20 years to genuine spiritual pursuits, so I feel my viewpoint may be quite atypical. My reasoning will probably seem batshit crazy to the uninitiated.

53 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@What Am I I'm curious. You being someone who values peace and harmony, what do you make of Trump's character and someone like him being in position of the presidency? I suspect you're reasoning is it's worth the gamble that our institutions are strong enough to withstand him for another term, and since you have that to lean on, you think it's worth the risk to buck the establishment. Is that pretty much your thinking? 

You're pretty spot on. Trump appears very far from my idealized model of a human being. It's a gamble that the destabilizing effects of Trump et al. will knock loose certain things from the establishment, vis-à-vis esoteric knowledge for the public. If I were to instead look at all this through an ordinary lens, I can't imagine myself leaning in Trump's direction. So it's not like I can't understand why you're repelled at the thought of it.

53 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Because if peace and harmony are some of your top values, you'd find yourself in deep shit trying to convince yourself or anyone else that your Trump vote is a vote for unity, peace, harmony, etc. 

I do agree in theory, but in this case, it's a hope for a far greater peace which has the potential to arise from the chaos. One where a lone weirdo like me isn't one of the few who's aware of what's actually possible within the human purview. What a world it could be.

53 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Can someone please just lay out the logic. Anti-establishment is not enough. You have to demonstrate how you deal with the toxic wrecking ball that is Trump. Do you think he's just not that toxic? 

As I think through this one, I do feel a shiver as I'm reminded that the weapon being utilized for change is the strongly unevolved man who is Donald Trump. It's scary to imagine what can go wrong. But if the status quo is a perpetual world of literal unconsciousness, then some potentials are worth a hefty risk.

53 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I remember when he first got in in 2016. It was clear to me that if you have someone like that at the head of the nation, they can do irreparable damage to the country. I imagined children at home watching him demonstrate hate, spite, selfishness, vindictiveness, attacking people and calling them names, and just the impact of that alone should be enough to let you know something isn't right. I knew that it was a huge mistake to have that in the highest office in the land and that it could produce dire, unforeseeable consequences. The risk is too great.

Probably not inaccurate in terms of the loss of decorum. It's disturbing how quickly things can deteriorate.

53 minutes ago, Joshe said:

How do you, a spiritual person, justify a vote for someone who embodies all values COMPLETELY antithetical to your stated values? He is full of hate, and you think it's a good idea to vote for him.

Same answers as above, basically. You're correct that he's nothing like I'd ever personally want to be, but I'm hoping he's an avatar for change against a powerful system that's holding the keys to the kingdom.

53 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I won't try to convince you of anything, I'd just like to understand.

As I was typing all this out, I found myself regretting that I'd revealed my reasons in those previous posts. Even on a spiritual forum, I don't think there's many who hold it as a reality, consider it deeply, and then live within those implications. Much less practice it and achieve results. You and I have never discussed it, so I don't even know if you yourself care for such things.

If this all seems very strange, then I apologize for subjecting you to my bizarre ramblings, lol. Since I live a normal life in the professional world, I'm also capable of acting as if spirituality isn't real, and it may be wise for me to switch back to that style for the sake of more productive conversations.

[lostingenosmaze]

@aurum

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It's really sad that you have to wish bad things on people that want to vote with the hopes of  a better nation in mind.  It actually makes the democrats look devilish.

Yeah I genuinely don't understand people who think this way. You're just goading fencesitters to vote Trump to spite people like you.

[Inliytened1]

38 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Thanks! 

Lastly, consider this: Imagine if we're right about Trump and you vote for him. How much would it bother you if we turned out to be right and he actually does the damage some people are worried about? 

 

The risk of that possibility is extremely low.  What is much more probable is another four years of this abominable crap.  So I'd rather take my chances.  Just saying. 

[aurum]

2 minutes ago, lostingenosmaze said:

@aurum

Yeah I genuinely don't understand people who think this way. You're just goading fencesitters to vote Trump to spite people like you.

The pain I'm describing is a gift.

Someone should be so lucky to experience the pain of realizing they made a mistake. That's how you change.

[What Am I]

21 minutes ago, aurum said:

At this point, I'm done trying to convince people. I'm just issuing warnings.

Anyone know how the warning system works? Am I putting myself at risk of getting booted with my recent outburst?

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

The pain I'm describing is a gift.

Someone should be so lucky to experience the pain of realizing they made a mistake. That's how you change.

Don't rule yourself out of that equation then.  Keeping Harris in could be the same mistake.   It's something that is yet to happen.  What your describing is something after the fact.  

Edited November 4 by Inliytened1

[aurum]

4 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Anyone know how the warning system works? Am I putting myself at risk of getting booted with my recent outburst?

You're on the shit-list.

[What Am I]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

You're on the shit-list.

Well, even if you hate me, I still appreciate you, good sir. Along with Joshe and a few others I've come across. There's a certain openness and reasonableness that you guys display, despite us often being on opposite ends of various opinions.

Edited November 4 by What Am I

[sholomar]

I just don't have confidence stage greens can govern effectively.  Many of their policies don't work in a vacuum, and indeed defy the basic laws of natural selection that have caused species to evolve to this point.  Plus, they are too emotionally charged especially from Trump's trolling of them. I mean, the right has to deal with the left's accusations of "nationalist" and "white supremacist" and "nazi" that permeate pop culture basically continuously, but they have become numb to it, and are able to take it better.  Leftists seem to be more prone to emotional meltdowns to a degree. Plus I fully admit Trump is a TROLL and a NARCISSIST. I have more confidence in the group of people Trump has surrounded himself with this time around. I like Vance, Tulsi, Musk, RFK. 

I won't lose sleep over who wins to be honest. Both of them are going to print money, because they have no choice. We have an aging population taking government benefits with relatively low birth rates. This means more inflation because we pay more people to be unproductive in society. The more you do that, the more inflation you see, at least until we can get robots to replace all human labor and have a system not based on earnings per share growth as a measure of success, where corporations constrain supply to drive up margins, along with a banking system not dependent on perpetual growth to prevent it's collapse. The interest money to pay off debt doesn't exist, so you always have to create ever more debt to service the existing interest payments. This is why the national debt goes up 5-10% per year, and will continue to do so, forever.  If it doesn't, you get a liquidity crisis, the repo markets dry up, and crashy crashy.  Inflation is an unfortunate aspect of paying out more than you produce in an economy, along with having a debt based fractional reserve banking system with compound interest. 

Some of the gender stuff, men participating in women's sports, gender changes for adolescents, some of the restrictions on "misinformation" many of them propose, and also equity... giving unqualified people positions because of their gender or skin color, concerns me more. I like a society based on achievement by merit. Equality is great, but this push for equity, moral relativism, and anything goes, doesn't necessarily equate to a healthy society. We need checks and balances against people having too much power, but also some level of rules for good behavior... who decides what behavior is acceptable is always of course the question to debate forever. It's a fine line between order and chaos.  Democrats bring a LOT to the table, but they can't fix human nature. 

Edited November 4 by sholomar

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, sholomar said:

I just don't have confidence stage greens can govern effectively.  Many of their policies don't work in a vacuum, and indeed defy the basic laws of natural selection that have caused species to evolve to this point.  Plus, they are too emotionally charged especially from Trump's trolling of them. I mean, the right has to deal with the left's accusations of "nationalist" and "white supremacist" and "nazi" that permeate pop culture basically continuously, but they have become numb to it, and are able to take it better.  Leftists seem to be more prone to emotional meltdowns to a degree. Plus I fully admit Trump is a TROLL and a NARCISSIST. I have more confidence in the group of people Trump has surrounded himself with this time around. I like Vance, Tulsi, Musk, RFK. 

I won't lose sleep over who wins to be honest. Both of them are going to print money, because they have no choice. We have an aging population taking government benefits with relatively low birth rates. This means more inflation because we pay more people to be unproductive in society. The more you do that, the more inflation you see, at least until we can get robots to replace all human labor and have a system not based on earnings per share growth as a measure of success, along with a banking system not dependent on perpetual growth to prevent it's collapse. The interest money to pay off debt doesn't exist, so you always have to create ever more debt to service the existing interest payments. This is why the national debt goes up 5-10% per year, and will continue to do so, forever.  If it doesn't, you get a liquidity crisis, the repo markets dry up, and crashy crashy.

Well said thanks!

[aurum]

3 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Well, even if you hate me, I still appreciate you, good sir. Along with Joshe and a few others I've come across. There's a certain openness and reasonableness that you guys display, despite us often being on opposite ends of various opinions.

That comment was mostly tongue-in cheek.

It's not to do with hate. I want you guys to get it, but I can't force you either. You'll just have to make your mistakes.

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Well, even if you hate me, I still appreciate you, good sir. Along with Joshe and a few others I've come across. There's a certain openness and reasonableness that you guys display, despite us often being on opposite ends of various opinions.

You're not on the shit list for disagreeing with the masses.  You're always very respectful.

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, aurum said:

That comment was mostly tongue-in cheek.

It's not to do with hate. I want you guys to get it, but I can't force you either. You'll just have to make your mistakes.

Sounds very familiar over in the spiritual forum when we say we can't make you wake up you have to do that for yourself.  "I'd love to awaken you but I can't do that." So I guess you come from a place of love ❤️ 

[What Am I]

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

That comment was mostly tongue-in cheek.

Awesome, I had a feeling that was mostly the case.

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

It's not to do with hate. I want you guys to get it, but I can't force you either. You'll just have to make your mistakes.

If I am pointed wayward, I hope I quickly become righted as well.

[What Am I]

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You're not on the shit list for disagreeing with the masses.  You're always very respectful.

Thanks much.

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

As I was typing all this out, I found myself regretting that I'd revealed my reasons in those previous posts. Even on a spiritual forum, I don't think there's many who hold it as a reality, consider it deeply, and then live within those implications. Much less practice it and achieve results. You and I have never discussed it, so I don't even know if you yourself care for such things.

If this all seems very strange, then I apologize for subjecting you to my bizarre ramblings, lol. Since I live a normal life in the professional world, I'm also capable of acting as if spirituality isn't real, and it may be wise for me to switch back to that style for the sake of more productive conversations.

Thanks for sharing. It's an interesting perspective and worthy of consideration. I don't think it's odd. This is, after all, a spiritual existence. 

You and I share a common desire for the masses to wake up and evolve but we differ in what we consider potential catalysts for that to happen. I see Trump as a devolving mechanism. There is a case to be made that more people will start to take reality much more seriously by him being at the helm, but as far as him, his team, and his movement ushering in anything that will contribute to the masses awakening to spirituality and realizing our full potential, I just cannot see any logic for that.

The master of lies will not usher in a world of truth. It's just absurd as far as I can tell. Care to elaborate? 

It seems like you want it so bad that you’re willing to take anything different, even if that thing is the antithesis of what you want. It seems like a gamble of very low odds and very high risk. I think I get the idea, but the gamble has just as much, if not more potential to ruin all chances for what you want, does it not?

Edited November 4 by Joshe

[aurum]

8 minutes ago, What Am I said:

If I am pointed wayward, I hope I quickly become righted as well.

Sure, me too. Except by that time, the MAGA disaster will already be in full in effect.

Mistakes ain't free. Some are extremely costly.

[Inliytened1]

40 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 

The master of lies will not usher in a world of truth. It's just absurd as far as I can tell. Care to elaborate? 

If i may.  God is the master of Deception.   Now you can attribute this to the Devil, but if we're talking non-duality, which we can actually discover to be what is actual, then we can see that the Devil and God are one being.  So we can see now that the master of Deception is the one who indeed ushers in the word of Truth.  The moral of the story is that the Master of Deception is able to use anything in his power to sneak in Truth.  And you have no idea from moment to moment what he is using.  He could be using Trump or he could be using Harris.  Here we have to go with our gut.  But I can assure you this: God always has a plot twist.   He's the best writer you ever met.

Edited November 4 by Inliytened1

[Joshe]

9 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

If i may.  God is the master of Deception.   Now you can attribute this to the Devil, but if we're talking non-duality, which we can actually discover to be what is actual, then we can see that the Devil and God are one being.  So we can see now that the master of Deception is the one who indeed ushers in the word of Truth.  The moral of the story is that the Master of Deception is able to use anything in his power to sneak in Truth.  And you have no idea from moment to moment what he is using.  He could be using Trump or he could be using Harris.  Here we have to go with our gut.  But I can assure you this: God always has a plot twist.   He's the best writer you ever met.

Haha. Touché! The plot twist is you experiencing a synchronicity at the voting booth, which triggers visions of hell on earth right as you’re about to mark Trump, then you mark Kamala. Gotcha! 

Edited November 4 by Joshe