What should be done about LGBT restrooms?

[Nemra]

By Claude AI.

Sex (Biological Facts):

• Physical characteristics: chromosomes, hormones, anatomy
• Measurable through medical tests
• Exists on a spectrum (not just binary) due to natural variations

Gender (Social Reality):

• Society's expectations and roles
• Changes across cultures and time periods
• Includes clothing, behavior, social norms
• Varies significantly worldwide

Gender Identity (Personal Reality):

• Internal sense of self
• Shows up early in life (around ages 3-5)
• Backed by brain studies
• Can't be changed through external pressure
• Independent of body or social roles

Key Scientific Points:

• Biology plays a role (genes, hormones, brain structure)
• Environment has influence (culture, society)
• Neither completely determines the other
• All three aspects can align or differ
• Each person's experience is valid and real

Primary Dependencies:

Sex → Gender Identity

• Some biological influence shown through:
  • Brain structure studies
  • Hormone effects during development
  • Twin studies showing genetic components
• BUT cannot fully predict gender identity

Gender → Sex

• Minimal to no influence
• Social ideas don't change biological characteristics
• Cultural views don't affect chromosomes or basic anatomy

Gender Identity → Gender

• Strong influence
• Shapes how people relate to social roles
• Often leads to challenging or rejecting cultural norms
• Can drive social change over time

Gender → Gender Identity

• Limited influence
• Social pressure rarely changes core identity
• Historical attempts to force change have failed
• Cultural expectations don't determine internal sense of self

Most Supported by Evidence:

1. Sex has some influence on gender identity (but doesn't determine it)
2. Gender identity strongly influences how people relate to gender roles
3. Social gender constructs have least influence on both sex and core identity

Key Point: While these systems interact, research shows gender identity is remarkably stable against external pressure, suggesting it's more fundamental than social gender constructs but not entirely determined by biological sex.

[Hatfort]

Every public restroom should have inspectors, so when you need to use them, you'll have to show them your genitalia first, then they'll asses if it matches your shown gender, and if everything is correct, they'll let you in. If not, you'll have to go to do your necessities in nature if it's a rural area, or between cars if it's in an urban area.

[mojsterr]

Finally I will be able to flash people without getting fined

[Basman]

On 29/10/2024 at 11:06 PM, Spiritual Warfare said:

As a citizen of a liberal democracy, I believe we should strive to accommodate all perspectives. The persecution, segregation, isolation, and abuse of those who are different is wrong. However, only the persecution, segregation, isolation, and abuse of those who are benevolently or neutrally different is wrong. It is not bigotry to apply these measures to those who are malignantly different, such as psychopaths or rapists. Therefore, I believe that we can only accommodate LGBT people to a certain extent. In the past, LGBT people have been systemically oppressed, but I think we are beginning to see the end of this de jure oppression. I believe that for some, their LGBT difference is viewed as an entitlement to special treatment. Being a liberal democracy means treating everyone equally, which means that the LGBT community does not deserve special treatment. This is partly why I generally don’t support gay pride events in areas that aren’t strongly against the LGBT community. Because of this, I believe that regarding the restroom controversy, no changes are necessary. We do not need to create new restrooms for transgender or homosexual individuals solely because they may feel uncomfortable. First, the cost of creating these bathrooms would be enormous. Second, if we allow transgender individuals to enter the bathroom of the opposite sex, what we gain in apparent equality for gender and sexual identity, we lose in terms of public safety. Public safety is more important. A man could pretend to be transgender, enter a women’s restroom, and commit assault. Therefore, I believe that ignoring the public safety risks of assault and rape in favor of gender and sexual orientation equality specifically treats LGBT people with undue preference, granting them more attention than necessary. Will some people feel uncomfortable using a restroom that does not align with their gender identity? Yes. Is this discomfort a necessary trade-off to help prevent assault? Yes. If any change needs to be made, it should involve the labeling of restrooms. Instead of labeling them as men’s and women’s rooms, they could be labeled as male and female rooms, as gender is not identical to sex.

Man, I really wish you would start spacing your writing.

Regardless, I live in a progressive town and most public toilets here are gender neutral, simply labeled as "toilet". Honestly, I think the main draw of gender neutral toilets is that architects only have to focus one creating one set of cubicles instead of planning around the gender divide. Just one room with toilets. Cost cutting in the name of inclusivity.

In practice, you lose urinals for men (most GN toilets don't have those) and women probably feel less comfortable sharing toilet space with men. The restroom is like a roosting nest for women and I personally feel a like I catch them in a slightly vulnerable spot whenever I bump into them in the GN toilets. You could design GN toilets as a row of separate rooms, each with their own hand wash and mirror, with no shared toilet space (so its more like a hall). Then you largely avoid the aforementioned friction (though still no urinals unless you count the sink).

An alternative to GN toilets would be to just rebrand the handicap toilet.

Here's my breakdown: GN toilets can be aight but I don't think its appropriate in all contexts. Men and women have different needs and we shouldn't ignore those for the sake of inclusivity. Gendered toilet rooms in night clubs for example should definitely be gendered for the sake of women's comfort. And I want my urinals back, dammit.

Its not oppressive to trans people for them to meet society in the middle. Excessively demanding people to conform to a tiny minority that most people don't even see on the streets will lead to resentment and alienation of people who otherwise would be supportive of you. The hyperbole and charged language of the trans community makes people see them as crazy and unreasonable, like how "feminism" became associated with man hating witches.

12 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Every public restroom should have inspectors, so when you need to use them, you'll have to show them your genitalia first, then they'll asses if it matches your shown gender, and if everything is correct, they'll let you in. If not, you'll have to go to do your necessities in nature if it's a rural area, or between cars if it's in an urban area.

Those already exist, minus the genitalia stuff. They are called bathroom attendants.

 

[Princess Arabia]

39 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

then they'll asses if it matches your shown gender

I wonder if this was an intended mistake or a coincidental pun. "asses". Lol

[thedoorsareopen]

This thread is how I know you guys don't go outside. This is literally NOT A THING. "LGBT restrooms."

This is the only way you can make arguments in favor of red hat guy, you gotta come up with complete strawmen and argue them ignorantly and in bad faith.

[Thought Art]

@Spiritual Warfare You don’t need to accept that there are more than two genders. But, be tactful and kind in your speech on the forum. Pick your battles.

I am not saying there are or aren’t. Or that, there are different identities, etc.

Edited October 31 by Thought Art

[Hojo]

If I had a masculine energy and then I had a feminine energy and then I put them together would I have a transgender energy? No I would have masculine energy and feminine energy. Everyone is transgender no reason to maim yourself.

Edited October 31 by Hojo

[Yimpa]

Consider that most people don’t even follow speed limit signs while driving, even though they are the law and are in place to protect drivers.

[Adrian colby]

I was born with a sexual development disorder and it comes under the trans ‘umbrella’ term. 
I’m an undifinable awareness stuck in a part male, part female, body and identify and express outwardly as a man. A few medical tests I’ve had show genetics and neurology that is male. I was registered as female and that was demonstrably a mistake. 

if I need the fucking toilet I’m going to use it and expect you to grow up and get over it and keep your nose out of my private business. You’re not going to know anyway! I’m not distinctively different from any other man.

That’s not asking for special treatment or entitled. That’s me needing the fucking toilet and going in a sanitary manner. Jesus!

I don’t participate in lgbt crap or think adding toilets is necessary. It’s all a construct to which people conform anyway. The whole point of self actualisation was to step out of the construct not to be forced back into it by people who think they’re being spiritual. 
 

beyond the imagined body is an infinite awareness. What my ‘person’ is, is an individuated expression of that. It’s not going to be the same from person to person and you will find variations of people that are so different from you that you’ll question what is ‘normal’. Normal is local to you as to the frequency with which you experience something and are familiar with it. That’s it!

i never say anything to anyone, I never tell my story or identify randomly to people, I just mind my own business like everyone else.

only when I ‘tell the story’ of my person do ‘others’ form opinions and react to a concept that’s all in their heads when right up until that point they were dealing with the direct reality and there wasn’t a problem.

all in their heads!

if this issue really bothers you then stop complaining about it and go study human sexual biology at the depths and perspectives you’ve never contemplated before.

you also need to consider that the only ones jumping on this as a problem are those inducing division by scapegoating to keep your attention external and away from your own personal development. 

Edited October 31 by Adrian colby
Forgot

[Princess Arabia]

10 minutes ago, Adrian colby said:

you also need to consider that the only ones jumping on this as a problem are those inducing division

Couldn't have said it better. One thing I've learnt is when we really investigate the things that make us mad, upset or feel a need to fight for, it usually boils down to an internal fear of some sort going on. Not to say it's bad to advocate but really investigate the real reason.

Leo's paradigm video made me aware of this and upon investigating my own passion and concerns and fight within with the food industry and it's poisons, I realized there was an internal fear of getting sick because I hate going to the doctor and taking medication. So I put the responsibility towards the food industry to make better foods to take away my fear. Doesn't work that way, I have to be and stay vigilant myself. OP is riddled with fear and that's why most of his posts are so controversial and of this nature. He wants to fight for everything because he wants a perfect world and cannot stand feeling like a victim. It's obvious when you peel the layers back. This was evident in his post about how much he suffers and get suicidal when he thinks about the situation of the world. He doesn't realize how he's bringing it forth by placing his attention on it. His mind creates all these problems because of fear. Like you said, people don't know, it's not a problem.

[Thought Art]

The vast majority of humans, are male and female and are comfortable that way. Are there outliers? Sure. 
 

It is perfectly healthy to be born a man or a woman, and be a man or a woman. No surgery needed. Funny how that works. 
 

You are born divine. 
 

Don’t trust morons. 
 

And if you are Trans, enjoy that too. 

Edited November 1 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

We underestimate the damage the DSM and other documents have done to humanity. We used Lobotomize people back in the day. Now some people want to normalize giving surgery to kids. This is stupidity. 
 

That was only like 60 years ago we lobotomized people. Our institutions use the DSM as a manual. When you understand the epistemology of this, and how fucking stupid this is, you will not trust another PhD or psychologist in your life. 
 

Don’t let cultural zeitgeist and sickness disguised as equality fool you. 
 

So, when people are saying there are 2 genders that are biological, this need not be punished. 

Edited November 1 by Thought Art

[Hatfort]

3 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I wonder if this was an intended mistake or a coincidental pun. "asses". Lol

Oh, lol, this was a non-intended mistake, but almost works as part of the joke, indeed.

I meant assess, English is not my primary language.

[Princess Arabia]

13 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Oh, lol, this was a non-intended mistake, but almost works as part of the joke, indeed.

I meant assess, English is not my primary language.

Funny

[Nemra]

7 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Don’t let cultural zeitgeist and sickness disguised as equality fool you.

So, when people are saying there are 2 genders that are biological, this need not be punished. 

Gender isn't only biological.

The culture defines gender.

Male or female as a gender identity is as biological as other gender identities.

Edited November 1 by Nemra

[Staples]

12 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Every public restroom should have inspectors, so when you need to use them, you'll have to show them your genitalia first, then they'll asses if it matches your shown gender, and if everything is correct, they'll let you in. If not, you'll have to go to do your necessities in nature if it's a rural area, or between cars if it's in an urban area.

That would create thousands of jobs too. Genius!

[Yimpa]

Enough of the mind games and debates. I’m putting this to the test in real life. 

As someone who is traditionally labeled as male by government standards (at least where I live), I will experiment using the woman public restroom this weekend.

I’ve actually done this last Sunday without issue, but it was one of those restrooms that only allow one person in at a time. This time, I will use the ones that allow multiple women in, and I will do this at multiple locations throughout the weekend.

I predict nothing wrong will happen, but there’s only one way to find out. It also helps that I’ll have my queer partner with me to support me. In any case, I will report my results next Sunday.

[Nemra]

Isn't it interesting that in our houses no one has a problem going to the same bathroom?

[mojsterr]

Because we don't share them at the same time

And even if some do, it's because they are family and you know and trust them.

 

 

Edited November 1 by mojsterr