Sub-communication And Traps Of Leo's Videos

[No-Thing]

If you are following Leo's videos on a weekly basis and hold him as a form of authority there might be some traps you fall into due to his style of teaching and way of approaching the Truth. Most of what I will point out probably comes from my own projections but becoming aware of those is the point. This article comes from a place of love, I have deep respect for Leo and his work and I am grateful to have the possibility to watch his videos every week.

Nonetheless here we go. Read every point slowly and see if it can help you move beyond your current perspective. Make a pause after every point and just sit with it for a while. Watch out for any emotional or thought responds you might have while reading.

• Leo's teachings are really head heavy. Hour-long videos and subtle differences described with more and more complex word systems. I don't say that this approach can't guide you towards liberation. I am convinced that Leo sees words as pointers and that he would drop them all like a hot potato if he would find a way to just make us aware of what he wishes us to be aware of. Just remind yourself every now and then that, "Words, WORDS they are just words Woerdz wurdts potato". There are paths and practices that work with very little words like,  well actually any form of meditation (which Leo of course recommends).
• I feel like Leo doesn't put enough emphasis on emotions. A trap spiritual people fall into is, what is sometimes referred to as, the "spiritual bypass". It goes something like this, "I am above and beyond emotions I surpassed them" Bullshit! Emotions are one of the major keys to spiritual transformation. You meditated for 40 years and get angry at a bird pooping onto your chocolate ice-cream? Good, allow it, feel it fully, accept it, love yourself and your anger. You don't become enlightened by ignoring your emotions thinking you are so spiritual. You transcend your emotions by going through them and loving them for what they are and that means acknowledging them. A gem on this topic I recently discovered is "Radical Forgiveness". It might also help to follow some female teachers, they tend to be in touch with the emotional side of it more naturally.
• Watch out for what words Leo uses frequently: "subtle differences", "nitty-gritty". They tell you what the sub-communication revolves around. What else does he love to say? 
• On the scale of "you can work your way to enlightenment to there is nothing you can do" I project Leo more strongly towards the former. While persistent work is, from my perspective, definitely a crucial part of it there are times where you just have to put the hands of the wheel and admit to yourself, "I have no fucking say in this". Then life takes over and gives you exactly what you need for your next step. Sometimes it's good to sit at home all day and do one of Leo's worksheet after another, reflect and contemplate. Sometimes, it is the right thing to let go, say yes to your current life-situation and just see what comes up next.
• I project onto Leo, that he advocates a sense of rejection towards all forms culture, and "normal" society. In his recent video he stated something like, "I realise over and over how toxic society is". In order to get your ass out of the grip of societal programming this form of approach can be effective. Just stay aware to the idea that this approach has a strong judgemental tone. At a given point on your path when you freed yourself enough from the shackles of society you can start to drop those judgements again and embrace society to whatever extend you like. From the absolute perspective society is not wrong!
• At a given point Leo said something along the lines of, "you have to meditate for at least X years to reach Y" or "make the commitment to meditate daily for the rest of your life". For many people, hearing this might be exactly the right thing for others it can be dangerous. The same holds true for certain stages of your development. Okey, here is the danger I see in this. Hearing that you have to meditate for at least X amount of years and work really really hard is perfect tinder for your ego. You can reach enlightenment without any form of formal meditation. Jed McKenna's approach is an example. Though from my experience at later stages you are so free from attachments (no matter how you got there) that less and less thoughts arise and you enter a meditative state without even trying. Don't get me wrong meditation is a powerful tool. I meditate everyday and I love it but forcing your practice is not always the right approach. Here is an example from my journey: Through the help of Leo's videos I finally managed to build up a daily meditation routine. After a couple of months I realised that I approached it in the same way that I approached chasing money, chasing success and chasing personal development before. I became attached to it. I then stepped of the gas and stopped for a couple of days. I slowly started again but in a more natural way from a place of love and curiosity rather than goal oriented. I don't beat myself up when I don't manage to sit for an hour all the time. I am gentle to myself when I miss a day or two. You have to be careful again though. Recognise where you are at. Do you need the head through the wall approach because you can't get your ass up? Or do you need to chill the fuck out and let it come naturally because you are a self-help junkie?

I think that is it from my side from now. Again, this comes from a place of gratitude towards Leo's work. He helped me streamline my development, embrace spirituality more and guided me towards a level of understanding and living that was unimaginable a couple of years ago. Thank you for that Leo! 

I invite you to join in, in a none-judgemental way with the goal of helping yourself and others. You can check whether your statements are judgemental by sensing if you feel superior, inferior, angry, frustrated, proud, apathetic or sad while formulating them. If you feel neutral (don't confuse with a state of not being in touch with your emotion) or better compassionate, love or goodwill towards Leo, people of this forum and yourself than you surpassed judgment. If you find yourself judging, use it as fuel for your practice, but don't judge yourself on being judgmental! Start by accepting that you are and loving yourself anyway.

Love,

Dario

 

[Lai]

@No-Thing your post makes me so angry!!! 

...

No, just kidding.  
Very well-written neutral perspective. Something to think about!

[SOUL]

Seeing someone as an authority is a widespread issue within the enlightenment and spirituality community and it even extends to speakers assuming a role of an authority even if they deny they are.

It also includes the ideas and concepts that often get canonized as "truth", not just a personal truth but a universal truth that is said applies to everyone.

I rarely go into the details about specific ones to dispute because I prefer to not to be contentious on subjective matters and that's what most of spirituality is, it's a personal experience with subjective revelations.

It wouldn't surprise me that there are many who create a stumbling block for themselves from other people's ideas because it may not be reflective of their own experience.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by SOUL

[Gopackgo]

I agree whole heartedly with this approach, and have experienced the idea that chasing enlightenment as a concept is no different than chasing money. That was a recent realization for me. Any type of teaching on this subject matter requires one to walk a thin line between seeing the deeper meaning, and thinking the words are exact. At the end of the day, a big part of it is seeing how the mental state uses concepts to take short cuts to construct a working model of reality. This is something that implodes from within, and adding new concepts without the understanding behind them is not helpful. So much of this is about seeing what you are not as opposed to trying to become more. There is an example I see all the time here. People will say: "Enlightened people wouldn't be on a forum." What this is, is a projection of the self onto a situation. It seems to indicate that the person knows what enlightenment is, so they have a mental story reconciling something they think they understand, but really is only a conceptual understanding of what they think enlightenment is. In my experience, it is quite the contrary. This is an ongoing change in the mind for me. Talking things out on a forum helps to show me my own projections and stories. It is in fact this action that made me ask the question: "what exactly is this enlightenment that I am grasping at to be happy." This brought the recognition that I had no clue what it was, all I knew was that I needed it to feel complete. There is no difference between that thought process and money or drug chasing. The premise of both is that there is something outside of me that I need in order to be complete. That is one of the biggest misconceptions and enemies of truth. The difference is that I have recognized that when I talk to others, I am talking to myself. In addition, this is a hard topic to discuss with the majority of people. This community provides an audience of people with some key understandings that allow for people to bounce ideas off of each other. That can be extremely valuable.

I really like how Leo focuses on thought processes. It is pretty unique and has been vital for me (or so my mind tells me). It has helped me to recognize the ways that the mental state weaves beliefs to create a reality that is not as it is, but how I think it should be. In my experience, a lot of this comes down to what is making decisions in life. The self thinks that it is, but really, a decision is made outside of the conscious mind and then the self makes up a story so that it can justify the decision to others. It is a self confirming post-hoc rationalization. These stories accumulate over time and become belief systems. This in turn is the mask that we show to the world (it has social utility). They are stories we use to explain why we are the way we are, and they are all based on the idea that there is control over decisions. This is why the self can never truly accept this. It is composed of the fake control. It is a story made up of stories, that project itself onto reality and distort reality so that whatever is happening can be readily assimilated into the existing schema. As the illusion of control is peeled back, so goes the the thoughts as they become less interesting, and being becomes the forefront. This ties into what@No-Thing is saying, because conceptualizing something that you cant truly ever understand can become a part of this process. It can feed the beast just like anything else. Really, it is an illusion to think you have any control over when or how you will awaken. It either happens or not, and it happens outside of you as a self. That is maybe why paradoxically, many people are liberated the second that they give up the search. This just happened to be the final disappointment to show them that they already are complete.

The thing is that this post in itself is a story projecting a model of what my mind thinks things are like. Meaning is inherently lost in the words because they are first projected by me, then assimilated by you. Herein lies the crux of the issue. You have to be wary of that. Teachers are trying to transfer wisdom that is beyond thought, and the self will distort and twist it in anyway it can if thoughts are listened to as a subject. 

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, No-Thing said:

From the absolute perspective society is not wrong!

Society is always wrong, we are not meditative because we are conditioned by a wrong society.

2 hours ago, No-Thing said:

Okey, here is the danger I see in this. Hearing that you have to meditate for at least X amount of years and work really really hard is perfect tinder for your ego. You can reach enlightenment without any form of formal meditation. Jed McKenna's approach is an example. Though from my experience at later stages you are so free from attachments (no matter how you got there) that less and less thoughts arise and you enter a meditative state without even trying. Don't get me wrong meditation is a powerful tool.

J. Krishnamurti was insisting his whole life that there is no technique for meditation. And the total result was not that millions of people attained to meditation; the total result was that millions of people became convinced that no technique is needed for meditation. But they forgot all about what they were going to do with the obstructions, the hindrances. So they remained intellectually convinced that no technique is needed. 

No technique is needed at all – as far as meditation is concerned. But what are you going to do with your mind? Your mind will create a thousand and one difficulties. Those techniques are needed to remove the mind from the way, to create a space in which the mind becomes quiet, silent, almost absent. Then meditation happens on its own accord. It is not a question of technique. You don’t have to do anything.

Meditation is simply awareness without any effort, an effortless alertness; it does not need any technique. But your mind is so full of thoughts, so full of dreams, so much of the past, so much of the future – it is not herenow, and awareness has to be herenow. The techniques are needed to help you to cut your roots from the past, to cut your dreams from the future, and to keep you in this moment as if only this moment exists.

Life is a complicated affair. There is good news, and there is bad news. The good news is that there is no need of any technique; but the bad news is, without any technique you are not going to get it.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Prabhaker

[Gopackgo]

The problem really is with language. There have been so many times that there is just no way to put into words what I am trying to say. On top of that, a lot of the things seem contradictory. To someone who is first starting to meditate, that can be difficult. For me personally, meditation came natural. I had been doing hypnosis, so I knew what "trance" felt like, and it was easily adopted into meditation. I actually read nothing and knew nothing about meditation, so the approach was organically to understand myself. I awakened before knowing what awakening was, so I obviously started researching, and when the insights started coming, it was pretty obvious what was going on. The concepts i acquired in research slowed me down in many ways, but also collectively provided a basis. Maybe it would have been faster if I hadn't looked it up, but that is irrelevant because that's not what happened, and in the end, it taught me a lesson. Nothing that anyone says will affect how someone proceeds in regards to their "strategy". It is good for there to be practical applications for people that would otherwise maybe read info that would side track them with grandiose concepts, but frankly, the self wants to find those concepts anyways generally. 

See... Fuck language, so much of that is contradictory because I really don't have a position on it, because there is so little control over it. You basically just have to do what you do, and in the end realize that you have done none of it.

I love all y'all.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Gopackgo

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, No-Thing said:

Leo's teachings are really head heavy. Hour-long videos and subtle differences described with more and more complex word systems. I don't say that this approach can't guide you towards liberation. I am convinced that Leo sees words as pointers and that he would drop them all like a hot potato if he would find a way to just make us aware of what he wishes us to be aware of. Just remind yourself every now and then that, "Words, WORDS they are just words Woerdz wurdts potato". There are paths and practices that work with very little words like,  well actually any form of meditation (which Leo of course recommends).

Your mind is filled with words, with thorns. Leo's words too are thorns. It is just as if you have a thorn in your foot -- another thorn can pull it out. The other one is also a thorn. What he may be trying to do is to pull those words out of you. What he is using are also words. You are filled with poison. What he is giving you is again a dose of poison, just an antidote. It is also a poison. But a thorn can pull out another thorn -- then they both can be thrown.

When he has talked to you to the point where you are ready to be silent, throw all that he has said to you; it is useless, it is even dangerous to carry it. When you have come to realize that language is useless, dangerous, that inner verbalization is the only barrier, and when you are ready to be silent, then remember well -- don't carry whatsoever he has said to you. Because the truth cannot be said, and all that can be said cannot be true. Be unburdened of it.

When one thorn has pulled out your thorn, throw the other one also with it. When you are prepared move into silence, then beware of him. Then whatsoever he said has to be thrown; it is rubbish, of no use. It has utility only up to the point before you are ready to take a jump into silence. Nothing can be said about that which transcends both. 

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, No-Thing said:

there might be some traps you fall into due to his style of teaching and way of approaching the Truth / Traps Of Leo's Videos

Everything in life is a learning. Make everything a learning and do not try to be wise before experience; you cannot be. And the real search is not for a real teacher, the real search is for a ”real seeker.” So you will become a real seeker through your search. And false or real, all teachers will help you.

Everyone helps if you are ready to take the help. So do not think of the other, whether the teacher is real or not. Your search must be real and authentic; that is all. If yours is a real, authentic search, no false teacher can misguide you. And if otherwise, there is no way. So remain authentic with your search.

A seeker is not even aware of himself, so how can he judge? But there is no need. If this is made a basic need - first to judge whether a teacher is real or not - then you will never proceed because this first thing cannot be fulfilled. You will remain where you are. So I say move. If you happen to be with a false teacher, good: move with him; live with him. Whatsoever he teaches, try it. You will come to know through your own experience that the man was false. But do not go against him. There is no need. He has trained you for a particular thing. You have known something which is good to know - what falsity is. Now you will be more aware. So go on moving, go on moving!

[Visitor]

Some people awaken suddenly, but most others who are awake awoke slowly. In either case, no one way is necessarily so.

However, we can all agree that if awakening was easy, everybody would be awake.

Don't worry about what is right, wrong, dangerous, easy, etc. Worry is a cover story draped over the real truth of the matter. Each person is responsible for ALL their own thoughts and actions. If a person chooses to believe something, then that is their choice, and nobody else. Life experience is experimental and sometimes it will blow up in your face. Soon we learn to become more sensitive to our own discernment. We approach things more softly, gently, patiently, allowing, tolerant, and above all with love of the truth. In this way, we maybe more discerning than before. We can then see and pick out the diamonds in the rough without worrying about the rough.

[Loreena]

@Prabhaker when can we stop making mistakes 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Loreena
Typo error

[Prabhaker]

Just now, Loreena said:

when can we stop doing mistakes 

If you don't do anything you will never commit a mistake, you will be a mistakeless man, but you will never move; by and by you will simply rot, vegetate and die. Never be afraid of making mistakes, simply remember that there is no need to make the same mistake twice.

[Sevi]

@No-Thing Although you bring an important topic to the table, I will disagree almost every argument you brought. 

On the way to enlightenment, Leo Gura's approach and methodology is one of the most eligible and accurate ones, if not the best and clearly this is a very pretentious claim.

Why? Especially because of his efficient usage of epistemology and his accuracy about scepticism.

These two major elements allow him to take his stand ideology-neutral, objective and equally distant from any of the proposals of the case. Also which creates not so-called but a real radical open-mindedness.

He is a young researcher so that his personal experiences of enlightenment might be limited, but he is clearly skillful at the implementations of the aforementioned tools. Therefore that makes an important difference on this subject matter.

'Enlightenment' has become a very popular term and concept in our modern society; almost polluted by all the attributions and projections of the social groups and individuals. To the point that to define its content with accuracy is nearly impossible.

But still we can talk about some facts about it. It contains deconstruction process of all of the conditionings. To lead such a process one must have stepped out from the social matrix as much as possible, and have qualifications to question every element of it which requires the tools mentioned above. In such a process, emotions can cause mislead, since they can easily be the byproducts of conditionings. That doesn't necessarily mean that the leader is going to disregard related sensations or emotions that are occurring or which are already existing but an unnecessary emphasis on them can be inhibiting to the growth.

One of the other undeniable elements of enlightenment is purification. Although what it is could be a open topic to discussion, simply we can define it as a cleaning process. To purify, we need to understand what conceptualization is, then we need to examine every single element of it. And again it requires a neutral, curious mind.

As a modern society we have a tendency to misunderstand and misuse of the concept of acceptance. The technology and the manipulative effects of marketing strategies naturally clouded the notion of what effort is and more so, what 'cause and effect' is so that we became indolent and inactive individuals. When we are confronted with the fact that to do the purification, or to be able to get rid of the conditionings, there has to be an effort input for it, we generally like to escape to the modernized definition of acceptance which in fact is a type of learned helplessness. Unfortunately "failing as a human being at the end of the life journey" is a very truthful claim which you will find out in  couple of different ancient teachings if you search. Someone bold enough to remind that to us is an important asset for our modern age. And to bring these uncomfortable facts to our modern society's attention is not an easy task.

 

[No-Thing]

First of all thanks to all of you! You made me aware about some misconception I am still holding like for example I mentioned in the title of the thread, "the traps of Leo's videos" but it's actually bullshit there are no traps, just lessons to learn and there is nothing wrong with that. "Traps" has a negative connotation.

@Sevi Thank you for responding. If perceive that you are projecting and argument into my text. But there was no argument going on. From my experience the path is about hearing or realisings the right things at the right time. The push in the right direction can come from people like Leo or children, animals, trees, drugs, your life, whatever it takes! My only objection was to share some insights I had as a frequent Leo listener to maybe help someone open the next door on their path. But to be honest, who am I to make claim that I know what people need to hear. There is a higher intelligence "fill in your favourite pointer" going on and my whole life I have not been willing to surrender to that. My ego wanted to control but that brought me suffering and I see that now. I am willing to give that "higher intelligence" a shot. 

[No-Thing]

A special thanks to @Sevi again, you made me help see the following in myself more clearly.

I was internally judging you about:

Sevi is making an argument against me

He always needs to be right

he can't see my good intentions

 

I then flipped it around (shoutout to Byron Katie)

I was making an argument against Sevi (which was true internally I was preparing for an argument. I was feeling like I needed to protect myself)

I always need to be right (which is also something that I still struggle with. I see suffering in people and then I make the assumption that they are to stubborn to see my position. It helped me so much why can't you see that? I am right you are wrong. Well actually the suffering might be exactly what they need right now to realise what they need to realise. If they ask for my help, I am here, if not I drop my judgment and accept them for who they are)

I can't see Sevis good intention (that was also true, I was reading the first sentence and then scanning the rest. I was already biased. I bet what he wrote comes from a good place!)

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by No-Thing

[Sevi]

@No-Thing yes, probably your title of the thread made me think that you were arguing about the points you made. But this was such a brilliant topic, we are all together in this forum because of Leo Gura's videos, and how we perceive and what we understand from them is a very valuable share; actually is the major reason of the forum to my opinion. Since what is offered in the videos are already very useful tools to self improvement, to share our point of views of them would be such enriching experience for all of us, I would like to do this more often.

And compare and contrast is a very efficient way to clarify any concept, so to question every single aspect and hold an argument about it, is a very nice idea I think.

Thanks

[Sevi]

13 minutes ago, No-Thing said:

A special thanks to @Sevi again, you made me help see the following in myself more clearly.

I was internally judging you about:

Sevi is making an argument against me

He always needs to be right

he can't see my good intentions

 

I then flipped it around (shoutout to Byron Katie)

I was making an argument against Sevi (which was true internally I was preparing for an argument. I was feeling like I needed to protect myself)

I always need to be right (which is also something that I still struggle with. I see suffering in people and then I make the assumption that they are to stubborn to see my position. It helped me so much why can't you see that? I am right you are wrong. Well actually the suffering might be exactly what they need right now to realise what they need to realise. If they ask for my help, I am here, if not I drop my judgment and accept them for who they are)

I can't see Sevis good intention (that was also true, I was reading the first sentence and then scanning the rest. I was already biased. I bet what he wrote comes from a good place!)

 

@No-Thing that's very interesting, because, what I see is you are identifying yourself with your opinions (about the thread), which are totally two different things. Yes somehow I was opposing some of the points you made, but not 'you'; actually I liked 'you' because of bringing such a nice topic to the table which even made me wanna be part of.

'She always needs to be right' is such a good catch though? one of my very down falls.

And I really had approved your clear good intentions and because of that I joined your thread. If I thought otherwise, I would have just passed it by interpreting that your ego is just reacting back to some uncomfortable truth. I would find unnecessary to write anything about it. But that's good to know, because I could have mentioned that while writing, I just assumed that you had already known how I thought, because in my mind, I was already actively responding which for me means that I already acknowledged your manifestation as a good one.

Hmm.. interesting. Thanks again.

[No-Thing]

Haha @Sevi I totally imagined you as a guy. Your name could have given me a clue but your tone of writing made me kind of think that. In your last message your sweetness shines through. My perception of you has totally changed and that makes me laugh and smile. It was just a misconception.

Thank you so much :-)

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by No-Thing

[Sevi]

@No-Thing I would say it was gender neutral writing, but more often we ladies put a lot of subjectivity in things; so when we don't see that trace generally we assume that it is  something masculine? and I appreciate your kind words, that was nice to write to you.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Sevi

[Shin]

Quote

I feel like Leo doesn't put enough emphasis on emotions. A trap spiritual people fall into is, what is sometimes referred to as, the "spiritual bypass". It goes something like this, "I am above and beyond emotions I surpassed them" Bullshit! Emotions are one of the major keys to spiritual transformation. You meditated for 40 years and get angry at a bird pooping onto your chocolate ice-cream? Good, allow it, feel it fully, accept it, love yourself and your anger. You don't become enlightened by ignoring your emotions thinking you are so spiritual. You transcend your emotions by going through them and loving them for what they are and that means acknowledging them. A gem on this topic I recently discovered is "Radical Forgiveness". It might also help to follow some female teachers, they tend to be in touch with the emotional side of it more naturally.

This so much.

Emotions are the key to transcend, if you don't face them, there is no way you could ever be at peace and grow in your life (at least not in the right direction).
You probably can have an awakening without facing your emotions, but realizing your enlightenment ?

No chance in hell.

[Seed]

@No-Thing  I feel you may be taking it all far too seriously.... Leo is trying to reach the minds of millions of human beings, each in their very own unique and personal situation. 

Take from it what works for you, discard or adapt the rest.

As wise as he is, he doesn't have magical powers, neither is he super human. 

Therefore a 'one size fits all' coaching video doesn't exist..

preparing to be shunned...