Why Do Millions Still Stand By Trump Despite the Evidence?

[What Am I]

45 minutes ago, zazen said:

Great watch. Toms podcast is great.

For sure, I think it's helpful for the more left-leaning individuals on this forum to hear the counter-argument from someone who's not named Cletus. I get the feeling they've built a caricature of their opponents in their minds that's only a partial representation of reality.

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

I think it's helpful for the more left-leaning individuals on this forum to hear the counter-argument from someone who's not named Cletus

😂😂😂

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

I get the feeling they've built a caricature of their opponents in their minds that's only a partial representation of reality.

It's just knowing how to think and being honest. If Tom thinks Trump wouldn't intentionally try to steal an election, he's a fool. His idea about a mind-reading machine is ridiculous. "Because we can't be absolutely certain, we can make no judgement" is the kind of thinking biased people employ to avoid calling a spade a spade. The guy tried to coup the government and Tom has the position of "I don't know that for sure". 😆

Of course a malignant narcissist who is obsessed with himself and WINNING, will not admit that he lost. If you want to bring in "he was attacked for 4 years and he knows they were after him" or "he thought they cheated and so he was willing to cheat too", you're glossing over or outright ignoring the reality that he NEVER admits to losing or making a mistake. In any normal, unbiased person's mind who doesn't have a stake in the game, they would easily arrive at what is true here. It's so obvious, unbiased humans in the 20th percentile of intelligence could see it, but here we are with Tom, who's probably in the 70th, having a hard time with it. 

Edited October 30 by Joshe

[Leo Gura]

Tom is a marketer. 

Don't forget what marketers are at their core.

[What Am I]

20 minutes ago, Joshe said:

It's just knowing how to think and being honest. If Tom thinks Trump wouldn't intentionally try to steal an election, he's a fool. His idea about a mind-reading machine is ridiculous. "Because we can't be absolutely certain, we can make no judgement" is the kind of thinking biased people employ to avoid calling a spade a spade. The guy tried to coup the government and Tom has the position of "I don't know that for sure". 😆

Of course a malignant narcissist who is obsessed with himself and WINNING, will not admit that he lost. If you want to bring in "he was attacked for 4 years and he knows they were after him" or "he thought they cheated and so he was willing to cheat too", you're glossing over or outright ignoring the reality that he NEVER admits to losing or making a mistake. In any normal, unbiased person's mind who doesn't have a stake in the game, they would easily arrive at what is true here. It's so obvious, unbiased humans in the 20th percentile of intelligence could see it, but here we are with Tom, who's probably in the 70th, having a hard time with it.

I don't want to rehash his entire argument, but it basically came down to him sensing more of a threat from Kamala Harris despite Trump's obvious flaws. It's a different weighing of variables to come to a conclusion that can appear counter-intuitive, depending on the person who's interpreting it through their own lens. You can definitely hate him for it, as so many seem to do, but you'll come across tons of people in your life who don't share your values.

I've found that mindfully choosing how you handle those differences is preferable to the alternative. Outbursts of negative emotion won't help anybody, especially those with aspirations of looking past the illusion of their own individuality. I saw you recently mention how you've noticed some people highly value harmony, and you're not wrong about that.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, What Am I said:

For sure, I think it's helpful for the more left-leaning individuals on this forum to hear the counter-argument from someone who's not named Cletus. I get the feeling they've built a caricature of their opponents in their minds that's only a partial representation of reality.

Usually, any hints of right leaning, conservatism or traditionalism invokes a triggered response. The irony of spiral dynamics is that those that self-identify as higher up on the stage, have barely integrated or understood the value of the previous ones. If they had, they wouldn't knee jerk react and dismiss them so easily. I was like that too, especially after studying Osho I had my own phase of ''anti-religion/tradition, down with the old and the right wing ''. I became idealistic rather than pragmatic.

But there is a way of coming full circle to these things with a higher understanding that actually empathizes with them and validates their core principles better than even they could. Theres a evolution that takes place where a hippie touches soil and thinks all order is bad - that we should be as free and wild like Gaia. Who then becomes a laptop liberal interested in politics and activism - working to bring down the patriarchy and capitalism. Which then touches grass again and realises all that it takes to grow that grass out of the soil they once rolled in as a hippie. That order, hierarchy, discipline aren't inherently bad, but humans can make them so.

19 hours ago, Joshe said:

@zazen You've made me open to the possibility it could be 20-30%, and I started at 10, lol, so good job. What are the best examples you have from around the world? Also, America has a huge influence on the world. How do you know us having Trump for 4 years didn't trigger it? 

My theory is Trump built an audience and this audience was largely a bunch of fools who are easy to dupe and sell things to, be it ideas or goods, and I think a whole lot of capitalists saw the dollar signs and politicians saw their paths to power. I think Trump highlighted this and people from around the world were taking notes. I remember noticing the shift when it occurred. I started asking myself, why are all these people all of sudden catering to right wingers. Later I found out, it's because they're following the money. Could this not account for a significant amount of the global phenomenon. This is just my theory, but is it not plausible? 

Europe was already experiencing a populist surge well before Trump came onto the scene in 2016. Trump’s rise may have emboldened these movements as US politics has global influence for sure, but he didn't light the matches, just threw fuel on them. Some examples: In the UK, Brexit happened before Trump was elected. In France, Marine Le Pen’s National Front gained traction as early as 2012. Germany saw the rise of the AfD around the same time, and in Italy, Meloni’s party (now in power) was founded in 2012. Hungary’s nationalist leader Viktor Orban came to power in 2010, and in the Netherlands, Geert Wilders Party for Freedom (now the largest in the House of Representatives) gained traction in 2006.

The reason Europe’s populist movements began earlier and surged quicker than America is due to increased waves of migration that the US hadn't experienced on the same scale. This mass migration is driven by a combination of neoliberalism (foreign policy) and progressive liberalism (domestic policy). The Neoliberal paradigm the West operates from emphasizes freer markers and interventionist policies, which creates economic instability and conflicts, which drives migrants to seek refuge and economic opportunities in Europe. Then comes progressive liberalism which provides the ideological basis for open borders and human rights (valid noble ideals taken too far) to the point of strain on local resources and cultural cohesion.

Europe suffers the consequence of this foreign policy rather than America simply due to geographic proximity. It's a feed back loop - neoliberal foreign policy causes the migration that progressive-liberal policies at home then attempt to manage or embrace with liberal naivety. In fact, it’s a perfect cover - progressive liberalism rainbow washes the crimes of neoliberal foreign policy abroad and its economic exploitation at home. We need to spread Democracy to emancipate minorities and women’s hair in Iran. We need to save the planet by carbon taxing and surveilling every breath you take - you know, for the environment and all.

On top of this, Europe faces an imposed liberal-progressive culture that feels out of touch with traditional or conservative communities. EU policies on green energy impact farmers productivity and bottom line, while LGBTQ+ and secularist values are promoted across the union, sparking resistance from more religious or traditional countries, especially in Eastern Europe. This is a slap in the face that fuels further discontent - just like in the case of America.

But more broadly, the anti-establishment rhetoric we see today is the result of many failures in Western institutions, which has eroded trust in multiple domains over the last two decades. Just look at the timeline we've lived through:

 

- The Middle Eastern wars of the early 2000’s was sold to the public based upon lies, that our men had to die for.

- The 2008 financial crises catalysed by a housing crash shattered trust in banks and financial institutions as they were bailed out while citizens lost their homes, jobs and savings.

- Social media became popular in the late 2000’s which challenges the mainstream media, laying bare the propaganda and lies.

- The 2010’s had migration surges in Europe due to more Middle Eastern wars in Syria and Libya, adding more pressure.

- The latest in chapter in nuking credibility was COVID from 2020 where people lost trust in government and public health due to imposed locked, coerced vaccines and shady contracts elites would make money off of.

 

Through each of these stages - foreign policy, finance, borders, media, and public health - people have been given new reasons to feel that their institutions are either out of touch, self-serving, or outright deceptive.

That’s why from what I see, populism isn’t on the whole manufactured. It’s the natural immune response and backlash from people who’ve had enough of: neoliberal economic and foreign policies that exploit and destabilize, progressive cultural domination domestically that feels imposed rather than embraced and organically grown, and institutions that have lied and failed time and again.

Edited October 30 by zazen

[What Am I]

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Tom is a marketer. 

Don't forget what marketers are at their core.

I'm actually not as familiar with any of Tom's material. He could very well be somewhat of a con man himself I guess, lol. I just tuned in because I'm always hoping for someone who can match Destiny's skill in constructing a persuasive argument.

[Yimpa]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Tom is a marketer. 

Don't forget what marketers are at their core.

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, What Am I said:

I don't want to rehash his entire argument, but it basically came down to him sensing more of a threat from Kamala Harris despite Trump's obvious flaws. It's a different weighing of variables to come to a conclusion that can appear counter-intuitive, depending on the person who's interpreting it through their own lens. You can definitely hate him for it, as so many seem to do, but you'll come across tons of people in your life who don't share your values.

With Tom, it's not about values. It's about logic. If Tom is doing a threat assessment and thinks Trump is the safer bet, he's a fool. This isn't being used as a slur. It's a precise description. A fool ignores, distorts, or flips the truth of things to serve themselves. The vitriol you sense is for THAT, not Tom himself. I don't hate anyone. Well, tbh, I do hate Trump, Tucker Carlson, and Elon Musk, but I don't hate any of their supporters. What I hate is the truth being diminished and superspreaders of falsehood. That's the root. I am not anti-Trump because I'm anti those other people and their values. I'm anti-Trump because the whole thing is one gigantic falsehood. I would vote republican for the rest of my life if it meant that Trump would go away... because it's not about politics, people, or their values. Early in life I struggled with Christianity being so toxic to the people of the world. Not because I wanted people to escape it just like I did, but because I knew that it was important to not believe what is false. Falsehood has a cost. It's all about falsehood.

Do you understand this perspective? You seem to think I'm locked into my own perspective, but I can assure you, that's not the case. 

[What Am I]

9 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Do you understand this perspective? You seem to think I'm locked into my own perspective, but I can assure you, that's not the case. 

Alright, fair enough; maybe it's a misread on my part. I suppose we all present our methods of being in different ways, and perhaps it's myself who's making the incorrect assumptions.

[sholomar]

I admit when I get high on marijuana and watch a Trump rally I can barely stomach the words that come out of his mouth. He's very abrasive, a troll, and himself divisive at least what comes out of his mouth.

I voted for him because his policies work okay, not great but better than what the left has been doing, and I trust the people who surround him... Musk, RFK, Tulsi, Vivek, and Vance.  The fact that the left make fun or cut down these individuals now shows their character, which is the same as the right. I see the left as too extreme, having policies that don't work, such as the Soros funded prosecutors not punishing crimes, the unchecked immigration, excessive government spending, and much of the woke ideology such as promoting gender changes on minors, DEI, pushing people into unqualified positions because they are the correct skin color or gender,  men competing in women's sports, not to mention they don't want voter ID to vote, which to me screams they just want to cheat.  Kamala herself is unwilling to take ownership of the problems of her last term, and keeps avoiding answering the tough questions. She lies and panders to moderates promising these moderate policies she'll never implement.

I made my choice. It's not ideal, but I believe the left has too much power and I don't like when any group has too much power. Plus they've had this obnoxious sense of moral and intellectual superiority about them the last few years that is offputting. I mean I get it, all this behavior is perfectly normal for all stages below yellow.  It just fascinates that this is what we are left with... two sides that are radicalized to fight against one another. To me both sides are so immature.  I see the left as a bunch of bullies who force people out who dare question any of their core positions, like Tulsi, and a party unwilling to moderate, but just keep pushing left. I see signs of the republicans willing to change, especially as the boomers age out of politics, so there's my choice.

Not worried about him being a dictator, banning abortions, or anything like that. He's mostly a state's rights guy. I think he could very well end these 2 wars also. They will not end with Kamala as president, they'll keep throwing hundreds of billions at them to drag them out.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tulsi-gabbard-announces-leaving-democratic-party/story?id=91326164

I'm more interested in who comes after Trump.. years of Tulsi, Vivek, and Vance in charge would stop this nation from the decay that would occur under leftist rule, in my opinion. The world is not ready for stage greens running everything. Maybe yellows, not greens. I share this guy's perspective on greens:

 

 

Edited October 30 by sholomar

[Scholar]

On 28.10.2024 at 0:27 PM, zazen said:

It’s not about standing by Trump as much as it is about standing with a movement against the excesses of progressivism, liberalism and globalism. Though MAGA have their own excesses which were evidently on display. But see what their complaints are - pushing LGBTQ and vulgarity via a cultural machine which lacks any grace or wholesomeness.

 

 

Progressives in urban coastal echo chambers deviated so hard from the mass sentiments of the core heartland of America. That mass now wants to reign in this erosion of boundaries. Leftists may enjoy swimming in a sea of moral relativism and hedonistic indulgence but most don’t.

 

Who wants to raise a family and kids in the above society? This is what most Americans fear being exported to their neck of the woods.

The rights issue is they emphasise standards and merit to such a degree that it’s lacking any humanity and become elitist. But the lefts issue is the lack of standards and inclusiveness of anything at all which doesn’t even meet the bare minimum - or is made to meet it via moral relativity. 

This is a made up problem. If you want to live a conservative lifestyle, go move somewhere where people like that want to live.

 

It's america. You can do whatever the fuck you want. You can find yourself some radical religious cult if that's what you fancy. 

 

 

MAGA people have utterly no standards. The left has too many standards, if anything.

[Joshe]

4 hours ago, zazen said:

That’s why from what I see, populism isn’t on the whole manufactured. It’s the natural immune response and backlash from people who’ve had enough of: neoliberal economic and foreign policies that exploit and destabilize, progressive cultural domination domestically that feels imposed rather than embraced and organically grown, and institutions that have lied and failed time and again.

Good points. Thanks for explaining!

[Nemra]

Why do some people think that LGBT is a BDSM community? 🤔

Have they forgotten that BDSM fantasies or practices aren't exclusive to LGBT people?

I find their hostile dishonesty against LGBT people quite disgusting.

Edited October 31 by Nemra

[zazen]

14 hours ago, sholomar said:

I see the left as too extreme, having policies that don't work, such as the Soros funded prosecutors not punishing crimes, the unchecked immigration, excessive government spending, and much of the woke ideology such as promoting gender changes on minors, DEI, pushing people into unqualified positions because they are the correct skin color or gender,  men competing in women's sports, not to mention they don't want voter ID to vote, which to me screams they just want to cheat. 

@Scholar @Nemra

It's a immature view of freedom as 'do whatever the fuck you want'. No mature adults in the room function that way, that's called being stuck in adolescence. Like Sholomar wrote above, this is leftism taken to far, to the point all they do is destroy the meaning of things with their moral relativity and construct awareness, then act like it is enlightenment when they are simply stuck in a rebellious teenage phase of being contrary for the sake of challenging authority.

They don't understand that there is a certain order that needs maintaining. They don't understand the 2nd, 3rd etc order affects of their actions and how certain freedoms when used as license to 'do as thou wilt' unravel society. There's a reason most leftists are young and become more conservative as they get older, it takes time to mature towards certain understandings. When you need to build a business or raise a family, the importance of certain principles become starkly evident. 

Progressive values aren’t coming through like an invitation to the conversation. They’re rolled out like commandments from the institutions on high. Academia, media, corporations - these set the cultural narrative of the country at large making these values feel imposed and inescapable.  It's not that people don't have the freedom to live conservatively in America, it's that their freedoms to think differently is squeezed to the margins and their made to feel like dinosaurs from a liberal progressive elitism. Its ideological monopoly, with cultural hall monitors ready to cancel you for critiquing the main narrative.

These progressive values feels like a baseline moral code has been set by institutions with disproportionate influence that permeate the country. I'm not saying these liberal values are bad, but wokism and leftist have taken them to absurd degrees.

 

 

 

''The West gets free markets wrong the same way that they get freedom wrong. No one individually is free to act immorally in the public sphere because people have a right to live in a society where their values are not being assaulted. Whereas you say that everyone has a right to act any kind of way in public - they can say whatever they want to say in public, behave in all kinds of immoral and indecent ways, all in the name of personal liberty. Never mind how much tension, how much misery, how much division, how much animosity that creates in your society.

But you let a fringe group of people oppress the general public by violating the values and the morals of the majority, all in the name of freedom. To you, freedom means:

Freedom from responsibility

Freedom from accountability

Freedom from morality

Freedom from decency

And then you apply this same understanding to the business sector and the so-called "free markets."

Edited October 31 by zazen

[Consept]

@zazen

9 minutes ago, zazen said:

It's a immature view of freedom as 'do whatever the fuck you want'. No mature adults in the room function that way, that's called being stuck in adolescence. Like Sholomar wrote above, this is leftism taken to far, to the point all they do is destroy the meaning of things with their moral relativity and construct awareness, then act like it is enlightenment when they are simply stuck in a rebellious teenage phase of being contrary for the sake of challenging authority.

It depends how you see it, do you want a secular society whereby you can do anything you like as long as it doesnt infringe on the freedom of other people or should there be an objective set of values and morality that we should all live by regardless of if it is against ones personal values and morality? 

I think that the left generally want the 1st option and the right generally want the 2nd option. The trouble with the 2nd option is obvious in that most people may not share the values, in this case christian nationalism, in a lot of instances the right is unashamedly not tolerant of certain things like lgbtq, abortion rights etc. The left is tolerant of everything except intolerance. This is where the conflict happens because the right fundamentally cant accept the left and the left cant accept the intolerance of the right. Its like a paradox how can you be tolerant and also accept intolerance? 

My stance would be that a secular society whereby anyone can practice whatever religion and whatever culture they want is a better society in that it can include everyone, it can include christians, muslims, black, white, gay straight. In principle these are the foundations of America, the country was designed to be secular and to be equal, the success of the country has come from that even despite them not really sticking to it a lot of times. But the country is built on immigration essentially and really the culture is a massive mix of all different cultures throughout the years. 

The fundamentalist view where you say things should be a certain way, was successful at one point in history but all massive civilizations have had to become secular in some way. The general issue with it is that its too inflexible and doesnt let a society grow, its born from fear, fear of change, fear of being replaced. Even on a individual level, fear does not lead to great outcomes. 

24 minutes ago, zazen said:

I'm not saying these liberal values are bad, but wokism and leftist have taken them to absurd degrees.

Most people just want secular values that allow them to be themselves, whatever that might be. If you take 10 random people, a couple of their views are going to be extreme, theres no way around that. What i think is dangerous, both sides do this as well, is when you take the extreme view and try to present it as the moderate view of that side. This has what has taken the right v left battle to absurd level, the whole discussion over trans people who are probably less than 0.1% of the population is such a non-issue but it seems to be at the forefront of political discourse. I would argue maga is the highest level of absurd, its worse than the woke side imo in that maga will change whatever they think based on whatever Trump says, its scary to me to have a large group of people who will basically believe and follow whatever their leader says, regardless of the truth. You can say what you want about the left but they dont just follow randomly, most of he time they dont even agree with each other. The results of following a leader were shown on Jan 6th. 

[Alex4]

15 hours ago, sholomar said:

I admit when I get high on marijuana and watch a Trump rally I can barely stomach the words that come out of his mouth. He's very abrasive, a troll, and himself divisive at least what comes out of his mouth.

I voted for him because his policies work okay, not great but better than what the left has been doing, and I trust the people who surround him... Musk, RFK, Tulsi, Vivek, and Vance.  The fact that the left make fun or cut down these individuals now shows their character, which is the same as the right. I see the left as too extreme, having policies that don't work, such as the Soros funded prosecutors not punishing crimes, the unchecked immigration, excessive government spending, and much of the woke ideology such as promoting gender changes on minors, DEI, pushing people into unqualified positions because they are the correct skin color or gender,  men competing in women's sports, not to mention they don't want voter ID to vote, which to me screams they just want to cheat.  Kamala herself is unwilling to take ownership of the problems of her last term, and keeps avoiding answering the tough questions. She lies and panders to moderates promising these moderate policies she'll never implement.

I made my choice. It's not ideal, but I believe the left has too much power and I don't like when any group has too much power. Plus they've had this obnoxious sense of moral and intellectual superiority about them the last few years that is offputting. I mean I get it, all this behavior is perfectly normal for all stages below yellow.  It just fascinates that this is what we are left with... two sides that are radicalized to fight against one another. To me both sides are so immature.  I see the left as a bunch of bullies who force people out who dare question any of their core positions, like Tulsi, and a party unwilling to moderate, but just keep pushing left. I see signs of the republicans willing to change, especially as the boomers age out of politics, so there's my choice.

Not worried about him being a dictator, banning abortions, or anything like that. He's mostly a state's rights guy. I think he could very well end these 2 wars also. They will not end with Kamala as president, they'll keep throwing hundreds of billions at them to drag them out.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tulsi-gabbard-announces-leaving-democratic-party/story?id=91326164

I'm more interested in who comes after Trump.. years of Tulsi, Vivek, and Vance in charge would stop this nation from the decay that would occur under leftist rule, in my opinion. The world is not ready for stage greens running everything. Maybe yellows, not greens. I share this guy's perspective on greens:

 

 

15 hours ago, sholomar said:

I admit when I get high on marijuana and watch a Trump rally I can barely stomach the words that come out of his mouth. He's very abrasive, a troll, and himself divisive at least what comes out of his mouth.

I voted for him because his policies work okay, not great but better than what the left has been doing, and I trust the people who surround him... Musk, RFK, Tulsi, Vivek, and Vance.  The fact that the left make fun or cut down these individuals now shows their character, which is the same as the right. I see the left as too extreme, having policies that don't work, such as the Soros funded prosecutors not punishing crimes, the unchecked immigration, excessive government spending, and much of the woke ideology such as promoting gender changes on minors, DEI, pushing people into unqualified positions because they are the correct skin color or gender,  men competing in women's sports, not to mention they don't want voter ID to vote, which to me screams they just want to cheat.  Kamala herself is unwilling to take ownership of the problems of her last term, and keeps avoiding answering the tough questions. She lies and panders to moderates promising these moderate policies she'll never implement.

I made my choice. It's not ideal, but I believe the left has too much power and I don't like when any group has too much power. Plus they've had this obnoxious sense of moral and intellectual superiority about them the last few years that is offputting. I mean I get it, all this behavior is perfectly normal for all stages below yellow.  It just fascinates that this is what we are left with... two sides that are radicalized to fight against one another. To me both sides are so immature.  I see the left as a bunch of bullies who force people out who dare question any of their core positions, like Tulsi, and a party unwilling to moderate, but just keep pushing left. I see signs of the republicans willing to change, especially as the boomers age out of politics, so there's my choice.

Not worried about him being a dictator, banning abortions, or anything like that. He's mostly a state's rights guy. I think he could very well end these 2 wars also. They will not end with Kamala as president, they'll keep throwing hundreds of billions at them to drag them out.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tulsi-gabbard-announces-leaving-democratic-party/story?id=91326164

I'm more interested in who comes after Trump.. years of Tulsi, Vivek, and Vance in charge would stop this nation from the decay that would occur under leftist rule, in my opinion. The world is not ready for stage greens running everything. Maybe yellows, not greens. I share this guy's perspective on greens:

 

 

Just fucking embrace the Green Stage, it’s the beautiful one, the one that reconnects you with nature, your community, and your country. Sure, it has its share of lunatics, like all stages, but if you think you’ll reach Yellow by rejecting Green, you’re just bullshitting yourself. 

[Scholar]

44 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Scholar @Nemra

It's a immature view of freedom as 'do whatever the fuck you want'. No mature adults in the room function that way, that's called being stuck in adolescence. Like Sholomar wrote above, this is leftism taken to far, to the point all they do is destroy the meaning of things with their moral relativity and construct awareness, then act like it is enlightenment when they are simply stuck in a rebellious teenage phase of being contrary for the sake of challenging authority.

They don't understand that there is a certain order that needs maintaining. They don't understand the 2nd, 3rd etc order affects of their actions and how certain freedoms when used as license to 'do as thou wilt' unravel society. There's a reason most leftists are young and become more conservative as they get older, it takes time to mature towards certain understandings. When you need to build a business or raise a family, the importance of certain principles become starkly evident. 

Progressive values aren’t coming through like an invitation to the conversation. They’re rolled out like commandments from the institutions on high. Academia, media, corporations - these set the cultural narrative of the country at large making these values feel imposed and inescapable.  It's not that people don't have the freedom to live conservatively in America, it's that their freedoms to think differently is squeezed to the margins and their made to feel like dinosaurs from a liberal progressive elitism. Its ideological monopoly, with cultural hall monitors ready to cancel you for critiquing the main narrative.

These progressive values feels like a baseline moral code has been set by institutions with disproportionate influence that permeate the country. I'm not saying these liberal values are bad, but wokism and leftist have taken them to absurd degrees.

 

 

 

''The West gets free markets wrong the same way that they get freedom wrong. No one individually is free to act immorally in the public sphere because people have a right to live in a society where their values are not being assaulted. Whereas you say that everyone has a right to act any kind of way in public - they can say whatever they want to say in public, behave in all kinds of immoral and indecent ways, all in the name of personal liberty. Never mind how much tension, how much misery, how much division, how much animosity that creates in your society.

But you let a fringe group of people oppress the general public by violating the values and the morals of the majority, all in the name of freedom. To you, freedom means:

Freedom from responsibility

Freedom from accountability

Freedom from morality

Freedom from decency

And then you apply this same understanding to the business sector and the so-called "free markets."

Freedom from responsibility? Have you looked at the actual former president, the actual representative of the right?

Where is the accountability there? Where is the morality there? Where is even the decency?

 

You are insane for focusing on some mildy cringe outbursts of the left instead of seeing the obvious and glaring and world destroying ideologies of the right. They live in complete Lalaland, in complete fantasy, and you think people being accepting of trans people is the issue here. The people who behave in the most inhumate, idiotic and irresponsible way are the right, by a long shot. And it's not some cringe college students who make up a small percentage of a political orientation, but the majority of the right is completely off their rockers. They are immature children who elected a complete baffoon for president.

 

This culture war bullshit is frying your brain my dude. If the right did not resist so much to basic human rights, and basic compassion, then the extreme left wouldn't be so unhinged. They are so unhinged because not much more than a decade ago we humiliated and completely dehumanized trans people and other minorities, and the right wishes we could go back to that kind of "common sense".

[Nemra]

@zazen, are LGBT people oppressing others?

The problem is that they are dishonestly portrayed as people who only care about sexual gratifications and also who have a BDSM lifestyle. The more conservative a country is, the more that stupid lie is prevalent.

Also, they don't have to subscribe to the woke ideology and aren't inherently Wokeists.

From what I have observed, Wokeists could be very dogmatic. I don't think that they're construct-aware and living in a moral relativism. 

They create their meaning, which is or can be viewed as a destructive force from the opposite side that are dogmatic as well.

24 minutes ago, zazen said:

It's a immature view of freedom as 'do whatever the fuck you want'. No mature adults in the room function that way, that's called being stuck in adolescence.

Nice gaslighting.

Remind me which people are endorsing Trump.

35 minutes ago, zazen said:

There's a reason most leftists are young and become more conservative as they get older, it takes time to mature towards certain understandings.

They may become conservative relative to the coming generation.

49 minutes ago, zazen said:

When you need to build a business or raise a family, the importance of certain principles become starkly evident.

I didn't mean that all conservative stuff is bad.

Having a conservative approach towards a certain thing doesn't make you a conservative.

[sholomar]

12 hours ago, zazen said:

@Scholar @Nemra

It's a immature view of freedom as 'do whatever the fuck you want'. No mature adults in the room function that way, that's called being stuck in adolescence. Like Sholomar wrote above, this is leftism taken to far, to the point all they do is destroy the meaning of things with their moral relativity and construct awareness, then act like it is enlightenment when they are simply stuck in a rebellious teenage phase of being contrary for the sake of challenging authority.

They don't understand that there is a certain order that needs maintaining. They don't understand the 2nd, 3rd etc order affects of their actions and how certain freedoms when used as license to 'do as thou wilt' unravel society. There's a reason most leftists are young and become more conservative as they get older, it takes time to mature towards certain understandings. When you need to build a business or raise a family, the importance of certain principles become starkly evident. 

Progressive values aren’t coming through like an invitation to the conversation. They’re rolled out like commandments from the institutions on high. Academia, media, corporations - these set the cultural narrative of the country at large making these values feel imposed and inescapable.  It's not that people don't have the freedom to live conservatively in America, it's that their freedoms to think differently is squeezed to the margins and their made to feel like dinosaurs from a liberal progressive elitism. Its ideological monopoly, with cultural hall monitors ready to cancel you for critiquing the main narrative.

These progressive values feels like a baseline moral code has been set by institutions with disproportionate influence that permeate the country. I'm not saying these liberal values are bad, but wokism and leftist have taken them to absurd degrees.

 

 

To me when I think of stage green what comes to mind are reddit leftists. Far from being the bastion of advanced understanding, they come off to me as a sort of hyper emotional religious cult that starts mass downvoting, having tantrums, and throwing out F bombs whenever you disagree with them. To me they have more in common with the stages below them than with stage yellow.  You are correct in that they throw out these ideas they invent like changing "breast feeding" to "chest feeding" and other woke ideals that just kind of formed the last 5-10 years, as though they are commandments and they have the ultimate authority on society's morality, which is VERY offputting to a lot of people.  They're moral relativists, yet if you don't believe everything they believe in you are wrong at best, and an "evil nationalist" at worst.

One of the problems with american democrats is that they aren't purely stage green either, the woke movement itself has been hijacked by corporate interests who make good money off promoting things like gender surgeries and drugs. If you don't think there isn't big money behind every policy of that party I have a bridge to sell you. It's simply human nature. The unchecked immigration is more about getting cheap labor to fill worker shortages without having to raise wages than it is being compassionate towards people's needs as another example.

I do get it though. If you don't have the ability to see that Trump's talking is just political chess, and take it all very seriously, I can see how it would trigger you. He is a very divisive person in his demeanor.  I believe he will govern fine. He's not going to be a dictator. We will make it through his term if he wins, and life will go on. Given the choice, I would have rather had a different republican candidate.  As far as passing stage green to get to yellow, everybody has varying degrees of every level in them. A prerequisite to get to yellow is to bypass the radical emotionalism of the lower levels. It's impossible to be a yellow while having strong emotional associations with the lower levels to the point of wanting to force a philosophy on others or having meltdowns over issues. At some point a person learns to appreciate the validity of every perspective within reason, and those strong emotional reactions diminish.

 

Edited October 31 by sholomar

[Yimpa]

This priest is right