Why Do Millions Still Stand By Trump Despite the Evidence?

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

They didn't give a damn about any government policy.

And they still don't.

It's madness of crowds based on vibes. That's how demagoguery works. It preys are on political fools who never really cared about governance. To these people politics is a football game.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Nemra]

@Joshe, respect. 🫡

[zazen]

Case in point. The type of attitude seen above is what imo fuels exactly what populists claim to despise. The mockery and dismissal of legitimate grievances.

If we’re arguing that Trump single handedly turned millions of apolitical people into vocal critics of the system, we’re missing the larger picture. Trump didn’t create the grievances of his supporters - he tapped into frustrations that were already simmering beneath the surface. The idea that these folks “weren’t complaining before Trump” assumes that dissatisfaction only matters when it’s vocalized, ignoring the years of quiet resentment over policies that many felt betrayed their interests - though they may not have much understanding of them.

And if Trump is the sole reason for this populist anger, how do we explain the rise of similar movements across Europe? Are we to believe that every working class voter in these countries is just “following vibes” and “ignorant of governance,” or is there a broader trend here - an expression of frustration with a political establishment that has increasingly catered to elites while leaving ordinary people behind. Populism doesn’t come with polished talking points or think tank approved narratives - doesn’t mean we dismiss these people because they aren’t into politics or have the base knowledge to discuss it. 

Progressives defend vulgarity and public debauchery as “human expression,” as if slapping the label of “freedom” on it suddenly makes it profound. Maybe not everyone sees it as some enlightened celebration of freedom. People are free to live their lives as they wish behind closed doors. The issue arises when this “expression” spills out into the public square, pushed onto communities that didn’t ask for it. For many who don’t live in cosmopolitan bubbles, it feels like yet another slap in the face from a society that once upheld certain standards and values.

And this is the point - populists who don’t care for policy or government wanted to be left alone (as mentioned - they’re busy being apolitical watching sports, hunting and fishing) yet they now feel they can’t be. Populism’s rise stems from a feeling of being forced to accept cultural shifts they don’t want. Urban centres naturally become centres of media and export a culture that reverberates through the American heartland. Coastal liberal conciousness feels foreign to a more core conservative consciousness in middle America.

When we say sexuality is just “Human nature” and that the indulgence of it can’t be blamed on Democrats? Firstly, progressives don’t even believe in human nature 🫃🏻 nor understand it (did Comrade Kamala speak of unrealised capital gains tax?) Secondly, as if human nature exists in a vacuum and can’t be nurtured towards the betterment of civilization - but that requires vision, something lacking atm amongst Democrats. Keep America Medicore And Lacking Ambition is the vision, I guess.

The above will be the leftist meltdown if Republicans win. But don’t worry, it’s just a form of human expression.

Beside the fun and games - we either face, acknowledge and rectify populist grievances which are the back bone of society ie the working class, or we await their come back like a rising populist Phoenix ready to burn our democratic asses.

Edited October 28, 2024 by zazen

[Joshe]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

If we’re arguing that Trump single handedly turned millions of apolitical people into vocal critics of the system, we’re missing the larger picture. Trump didn’t create the grievances of his supporters - he tapped into frustrations that were already simmering beneath the surface. The idea that these folks “weren’t complaining before Trump” assumes that dissatisfaction only matters when it’s vocalized, ignoring the years of quiet resentment over policies that many felt betrayed their interests - though they may not have much understanding of them.

Trump didn't do it single-handedly. He had a lot of help. 

Did you know that you can make someone believe they experienced something they didn't? That's how malleable the psyche is. 

Given that, do you think it's possible to install grievances? If Tucker Carlson tells millions of Americans every night for 5 years that they have a problem, and then shows them compelling evidence, do you think that could make some people think they have a problem when they actually don't? 

You can make people fear things. You can make them hate things. And you can make it all up out of thin air. Tucker Carlson has bragged about being able to do just this.

All humans have problems. It's easy to tap into them. How many people feel lonely? Well guess what, it's possible to tell lonely people that the reason they are lonely is because society has abandoned them. How many people have a problem with authority? Well guess what, it's easy to make them believe the Democrat party wants full control over them. 

On and on it goes. The vast majority of the so-called grievances the right has have been installed into them. Sorry. 

Edited October 28, 2024 by Joshe

[zazen]

@Joshe

Saying populist grievances are manufactured actually reinforces and validates their critique of elite dismissiveness. For sure media figures and demagogues amplify and channel these grievances - but they can't amplify thin air or channel grievances that don't exist. What they install is the framework of how to interpret those grievances and direct them towards the 'wrong' solution - but they acknowledge they exist which is why they get the populist vote. The liberal world view requires believing that millions of people are simply hallucinating the worsening of their own material conditions, that is being worsened by a imperialistic corporate parasite that neoliberalism gave birth to.

Neoliberal capitalism is doing exactly what its critics have warned about - concentrating wealth while causing mass discontent that goes beyond borders and even continents. The media machine serves theses parasitic vampire elites by gas lighting the public into thinking its raining while they're being pissed on. The lived reality hugely differs to the portrayed one which is why when Trump blurts out 'fake news' so many resonate with it.

The global nature of populist movements counters the idea that these grievances are just installed and not true. How did Trump and Tucker cause farmer protests across Europe or give rise to populists in Brazil - was their a demagog conference where they taught their best tricks in demagoguery?

People are responding to conditions that transcend national boundaries, because bipartisan neoliberalism transcends boundaries to serve a transnational elite class of vultures - it hasn't worked well enough, for enough people. Young people are locked out of a housing market they're parents easily entered, student debt and health care costs are high, stagnant wages, the 2008 housing crash followed by bank bail outs, lies about war after war, poll after poll showing trust in institutions were already in the basement before Trump ever came https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.aspx

Trump didn't create a crises of legitimacy. Western institutions have long nuked their credibility before his cheeky grin rode down that gold escalator in Trump tower, and their burying the remains of it in the rubble of Gaza. Demagogues don't create the conditions they exploit.

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by zazen

[Joshe]

@zazen Of the general population, how common do you think victimhood mentality is? When we're not engaged in self-development, It's natural for us to blame all our problems on something else out there. This very natural tendency for humans to play victim is what has been tapped into. Why take responsibility for your own life when you can blame it on something else? If you agree with this, then you have to consider the degree to which it's implicated in the phenomenon we're discussing. 

What the left and the right have in common is they both know our government has always been corrupt and no one likes elites having the control that they do. How easy it is to tell people the source of their pain is the ruling elite. With a loud enough megaphone, Trump exploited this via con artistry. He and his ilk are the most fucking corrupt elites. If you want to stamp out corruption and actually solve the problems, you can't do it via Trumpism. I agree with every right winger that the government needs fixing, but I part ways with them in their thinking that Trump is the answer. It's about the stupidest thing I can think of. 

As for the global phenomenon, I don't know what elements of reality have had what impact. Everything is interconnected and affects everything else, but I'm not buying the rise of your "populist" movement is due to liberals run amok. Seems like a good story right wingers can use to justify their willful ignorance and persistent denial of reality so they can feel good in their little bubbles. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Joshe

[What Am I]

Here's an awesome debate by a couple of guys who are able to eloquently articulate their position. It's worth a watch if anyone wants to take the time.

 

[Jodistrict]

Robert Kennedy endorsed Trump and Kennedy is a rational thinker.  In an interview Kennedy said Trump was more likely to support his proposed regulatory reforms and he wouldn’t have a chance with Harris.    I  believe that Kennedy’s MAHA (make America healthy again) movement is important.  It addresses big pharma and a food industry that is destroying the health of the people.   Ironically, if Trump gives Kennedy real power, a Trump administration could end up making real progressive reforms that are far more important than the democratic party’s obsession with marginal issues of sexual identity.

[What Am I]

Another interesting one.

 

[zazen]

@Joshe  So there is a problem and the government needs fixing? So there are legit grievances that aren’t just manufactured?

I think the distinction is that you’re viewing liberalism from just the cultural component, which I’d agree isn’t enough by itself to tip the conservative minded into populist rage. But it’s the combination of neoliberalism which is the economic component causing material issues + a liberal cultural component that causes conservatives to become culturally protectionist and feel even more disillusioned.

It’s the tone deafness of the elites to emphasise marginal progressive politics whilst brushing aside the economic discontent of the many. All the while mocking them as culturally regressive and deeming the masculine essence that half of humanity carry as toxic and needing of reigning in. They want to police, me too and cancel culture the masculine spirit into an effeminate obedience to a progressive utopia where pregnant men are as real as gravity, where we need to address things in woke terminology like ‘chest feeding’ and ‘birthing person’.

Like @Jodistrict said above, there’s more important issues than these marginal ones.

Neoliberalism creates bipartisan economic grievances for everyone. But a dominant liberal culture on top of this intensifies the discontent on the right. It’s a double whammy for them. Economics is the foundational grievance for all, a punch to the gut. But cultural dominance of a progressive bent is the slap on the face for conservative oriented people. Democrats and liberals feel perfectly at home in this cultural environment. And because they align closely with the Democrats on these cultural issues, they assume the party will fix their economic problems too, despite evidence to the contrary. Their populist rage is culturally pacified. 
 

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by zazen

[Yimpa]

Corruption prays on the lost souls

 

 

[Joshe]

@zazen All humans have legit grievances. It comes with the territory. Life is hard. But like I said, before Trump the 80+ million who are all in a tizzy were not rabid before Trump and the propaganda machine ensnared them. The great truth tellers that are Trump and Tucker Carlson did not shine the light on legitimate, dormant grievances. Rather, they weaponized an unwitting population into serving their cause. 

Do you remember in 2020 when the entire right was crusading on "Save the Children", because they had been told the elite democrats were trafficking them? The shit went viral and every member in my community was on FB and social media posting "Save the Children!" My sister actually almost changed her career due to that propaganda. Before that, she never thought about pedophilia but all of sudden she had a legit grievance, huh? 

I can concede that a small fraction of what moved them are the things you mentioned but can you concede that a significant degree of their movement is born of sheer demagoguery? If not, to what degree do you think is fair to say? 

 

[Joshe]

5 hours ago, What Am I said:

Here's an awesome debate by a couple of guys who are able to eloquently articulate their position. It's worth a watch if anyone wants to take the time.

Yeah, this is a good one. I can't understand Tom. He says that if he knew with certainty that Trump intentionally tried to steal the election, then he 100% would not vote Trump.

@What Am I With all the data that we have on Trump and the 2020 election, if you had to bet all your assets and everything you own on the question "Did Trump intentionally try to steal the election?", would you bet yes or no? Be honest! 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Joshe

[What Am I]

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yeah, this is a good one. I can't understand Tom. He says that if he knew with certainty that Trump intentionally tried to steal the election, then he 100% would not vote Trump.

@What Am I With all the data that we have on Trump and the 2020 election, if you had to bet all your assets and everything you own on the question "Did Trump intentionally try to steal the election?", would you bet yes or no? Be honest!

Yep, an interesting debate between a couple very sharp fellas. I watch Destiny all the time to get a clear perspective from his vantage point.

My best guess would be that Trump fully believes he was cheated out of the election, and after all legal avenues failed, he attempted to steal it back. So kind of like a "two wrongs making a right" in his mind.

[zazen]

@Joshe For sure man, those conspiracies were out of control. I’m glad we haven’t had to see so much Qanon content this cycle lol. I saw a funny comment which said Project 2025 is like Qanon for Democrats - guess we’ll see if any of it comes true if Trump wins.

There’s definitely demagoguery happening, it’s fuel on the fire. There’s enough truth in these grievances to keep people hooked, with enough theatre to keep them raging and loyal to the party and saviour who says he’ll save them.

I’d say it’s roughly 60-70% legitimate grievance as the foundation of the movement with the rest being a circus with demagogues as the main act.

Thats how I currently see it just by looking at polling data and trends over the decades, what I see online among right wing media and anecdotally from what I’ve heard, seen and felt on the street. The fact that the same pattern is happening in many places where we don’t have such cartoonish showmen like Trump to pull on strings also indicates this isn’t solely due to demagogues.

[Joshe]

@zazen You've made me open to the possibility it could be 20-30%, and I started at 10, lol, so good job. What are the best examples you have from around the world? Also, America has a huge influence on the world. How do you know us having Trump for 4 years didn't trigger it? 

My theory is Trump built an audience and this audience was largely a bunch of fools who are easy to dupe and sell things to, be it ideas or goods, and I think a whole lot of capitalists saw the dollar signs and politicians saw their paths to power. I think Trump highlighted this and people from around the world were taking notes. I remember noticing the shift when it occurred. I started asking myself, why are all these people all of sudden catering to right wingers. Later I found out, it's because they're following the money. Could this not account for a significant amount of the global phenomenon. This is just my theory, but is it not plausible? 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Joshe

[Gennadiy1981]

7 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Robert Kennedy endorsed Trump and Kennedy is a rational thinker.  In an interview Kennedy said Trump was more likely to support his proposed regulatory reforms and he wouldn’t have a chance with Harris.    I  believe that Kennedy’s MAHA (make America healthy again) movement is important.  It addresses big pharma and a food industry that is destroying the health of the people.   Ironically, if Trump gives Kennedy real power, a Trump administration could end up making real progressive reforms that are far more important than the democratic party’s obsession with marginal issues of sexual identity.

I agree with you and this is very important as the pharmaceutical companies took over regulatory agencies and it’s a real problem for the health of US. As I said in previous posts I know RFK for a while and he is a very decent person. Indeed, prior to come to Trump he actually came to Harris but she brushed him off. Indeed he tried pretty hard to reach her but after few weeks of refusal he then approach Trump; something that many people are not aware. 
 

Also there is some kind of panicking attitude going on and a lot of things that are spoken of Trump and his attitude is very silly and low quality and indeed this kind of attitude actually gives more power to Trump. I actually thought Harris would do better, but she is also pretty hollow and the way things are going, seems your next president will be Trump. 
 

Have no fear, the worse what will happen is that he wk make America great again, no pun intended. 

[zazen]

21 hours ago, What Am I said:

Here's an awesome debate by a couple of guys who are able to eloquently articulate their position. It's worth a watch if anyone wants to take the time.

 

Great watch. Toms podcast is great.

[What Am I]

45 minutes ago, zazen said:

Great watch. Toms podcast is great.

For sure, I think it's helpful for the more left-leaning individuals on this forum to hear the counter-argument from someone who's not named Cletus. I get the feeling they've built a caricature of their opponents in their minds that's only a partial representation of reality.

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

I think it's helpful for the more left-leaning individuals on this forum to hear the counter-argument from someone who's not named Cletus

😂😂😂

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

I get the feeling they've built a caricature of their opponents in their minds that's only a partial representation of reality.

It's just knowing how to think and being honest. If Tom thinks Trump wouldn't intentionally try to steal an election, he's a fool. His idea about a mind-reading machine is ridiculous. "Because we can't be absolutely certain, we can make no judgement" is the kind of thinking biased people employ to avoid calling a spade a spade. The guy tried to coup the government and Tom has the position of "I don't know that for sure". 😆

Of course a malignant narcissist who is obsessed with himself and WINNING, will not admit that he lost. If you want to bring in "he was attacked for 4 years and he knows they were after him" or "he thought they cheated and so he was willing to cheat too", you're glossing over or outright ignoring the reality that he NEVER admits to losing or making a mistake. In any normal, unbiased person's mind who doesn't have a stake in the game, they would easily arrive at what is true here. It's so obvious, unbiased humans in the 20th percentile of intelligence could see it, but here we are with Tom, who's probably in the 70th, having a hard time with it. 

Edited October 30, 2024 by Joshe