being vegan at stage turquoise

[Majed]

leo said that vegans are mostly stage green. and this is true for multiple reasons:

first of all vegans believes in a absolute morality and they say that killing animals is morally wrong. which at turquoise you realize is false. 

vegans also believe in an objective material reality, and want to crusade to change this material reality. they don't realize that all of their worldview is a construction of their own mind. 

at turquoise you realize that the suffering of animals is imaginary and that it makes no difference whether animals are tortured or not in an absolute sense.

at stage turquoise the distinction between yourself and animals collapse and you realize that animals are you own mind. 

veganism at stage turquoise can happen because to create a healthy society one must promote the healthy development of animals. not exploiting them unconsciously. 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura what do you think ?

[Nivsch]

I disagree with these conclusions and with categorizing them as "Turquoise".

Edited October 26 by Nivsch

[Majed]

@Nivsch can you develop your point ?

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Nivsch can you develop your point ?

I think the animal industry is sick and cannot be otherwise, no matter from what stage one look at it. 

But the added value the stages above green provide in this topic is that there is a room for debating about eating meat in certain conditions, for example if you consume it in a pasture rised form when the animal lived respectufully almost all of his life (until got killed) although the killing in the end is too debatable and it is complicated.

In this way we like immitate nature as much as possible.

Has the person who eats meat found out that meat is essential for him to feel better? For many people it is true, so there is no judgment here and for them to try to eat as pasture rised as possible is a good strategy.

Edited October 26 by Nivsch

[Majed]

@Nivsch I am talking more about the metaphysics.

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Nivsch I am talking more about the metaphysics.

Ok but you connected very tightly the animal issue to all of this, so if it fails in this issue I think it is limited in the broader picture too. I disagree with the indifference about outcome and with the solipsism, I would think about Turquoise in a different way, but hey, each one and his view. The Love thing resonates with me much more.

Edited October 26 by Nivsch

[zurew]

Confusion all over the place.

1) You can be a moral antirealist/subjectivist and be vegan.

2) Not all vegans believe in material reality and being a vegan doesn't presuppose any specific kind of metaphysical stance.

3)  I don't see the reason why you would make the stance of  " to create a healthy society one must promote the healthy development of animals."exclusive to stage turquoise and I don't see why a stage green person couldn't or wouldn't use the same thought process.

Edited October 27 by zurew

[Jannes]

8 minutes ago, zurew said:

Confusion all over the place.

Copy that. 

 

22 hours ago, Majed said:

leo said that vegans are mostly stage green. and this is true for multiple reasons:

first of all vegans believes in a absolute morality and they say that killing animals is morally wrong. which at turquoise you realize is false. 

Stage green is more about empathy, morality comes from stage blue. Stage green has empathy for animals.

But getting to the moral argument, as morality is still incorporated to some extend at higher stages of course - you can come to the conclusion that killing animals isnt absolutely wrong but maybe not the best thing to do. 

22 hours ago, Majed said:

vegans also believe in an objective material reality, and want to crusade to change this material reality. they don't realize that all of their worldview is a construction of their own mind. 

what does that have to with veganism?

22 hours ago, Majed said:

at turquoise you realize that the suffering of animals is imaginary and that it makes no difference whether animals are tortured or not in an absolute sense.

stage turquoise isnt equal to spirituality.

And you have to separate the absolute from the relative. Or would it be okay for me to torture you because in the absolute sense its all love?

22 hours ago, Majed said:

at stage turquoise the distinction between yourself and animals collapse and you realize that animals are you own mind. 

"stage turquoise isnt equal to spirituality."

22 hours ago, Majed said:

veganism at stage turquoise can happen because to create a healthy society one must promote the healthy development of animals. not exploiting them unconsciously. 

what do you mean by that?

[El Zapato]

Is it within the auspices of the Turquoise to dispense with all considerations lesser folks view as 'real'?  Serious question!

[Jannes]

13 minutes ago, El Zapato said:

Is it within the auspices of the Turquoise to dispense with all considerations lesser folks view as 'real'?  Serious question!

You mean taking the perspective of "lesser folk", contextualizing and polishing it through the lens of a higher framework (stage yellow/ turquoise) and giving credit for the partial truth they did manage to get to?

 

For example: A stage red perspective could be: "I am gonna punch him in the face if he insults me again."

Response: We as people of a society make a social contract that we give respect to each others, brute force is the very last layer we can use. You can ask him why he does it, say explicitly that you dont like this behavior or get help. You are correct however that it can be a neccessary action to resolve issues if all other steps fail.

[Keryo Koffa]

On 10/26/2024 at 4:32 PM, Majed said:

at turquoise you realize that the suffering of animals is imaginary and that it makes no difference whether animals are tortured or not in an absolute sense.

Following the same line of logic, at turquoise: humans = animals, think about it

[Hatfort]

Transition to veganism is more likely in stage green than in the previous ones. Orange, the previous stage, has a more individualistic approach, while greens are also concerned about other's well-being, which would include animals in this case. Veganism aims to reduce animal suffering caused by humans as much as practically possible, knowing that to some extent is going to continue happening, even directly. 

Acceptance of suffering comes from understanding it. Everyone knows what pain and suffering are by direct experience, it's part of life. Animals are sentient beings, they are just other branches of the same evolutionary system that we belong, and just by observing them, although they don't have the same level of intelligence and capabilities as us, we can see that they experience pain and many emotions in similar manners to us.

Vegans are not stupid, if a wild animal attacks them, they are going to put their life first. But most of us live in a world where we can choose to live and consume in a way that can avoid death and extreme suffering, just look at the factory farms, of animals whose life and fate we as humans decide what is going to be, while still keeping a good nutrition for us, probably even better. There's also the case of the environment, because we are more than 8 billion individuals, and animal-sourced food is extremely inefficient. Feeding animals to get food from them takes so much more land and resources than what it would take to just get it from plant sources. Also, vegan alternatives to usual animal-sourced products taste fucking awesome, you don't need to be eating lettuces all day, for those who think that is what vegans do, and they are less carcinogenic than many of the compounds that can be found in the previous ones.

Oh yeah, vegan for the animals, the environment, and health.

[El Zapato]

8 hours ago, Jannes said:

You mean taking the perspective of "lesser folk", contextualizing and polishing it through the lens of a higher framework (stage yellow/ turquoise) and giving credit for the partial truth they did manage to get to?

 

For example: A stage red perspective could be: "I am gonna punch him in the face if he insults me again."

Response: We as people of a society make a social contract that we give respect to each others, brute force is the very last layer we can use. You can ask him why he does it, say explicitly that you dont like this behavior or get help. You are correct however that it can be a neccessary action to resolve issues if all other steps fail.

no, not really.  Are you able to ignore 'imaginary' pain for all other creatures because you know it is only imaginary?

[mojsterr]

On 27. 10. 2024 at 5:29 PM, Hatfort said:

vegan alternatives to usual animal-sourced products taste fucking awesome

And much less healthier than meat

[mojsterr]

On 27. 10. 2024 at 5:29 PM, Hatfort said:

are less carcinogenic

Excuse me what

[mojsterr]

 

Canola oil, sunflower oil...

 

So so very good for your health. 

Edited October 30 by mojsterr

[Scholar]

26 minutes ago, mojsterr said:

 

Canola oil, sunflower oil...

 

So so very good for your health. 

Still better than beef, although you can choose much healthier options than a Beyond Burger.

[mojsterr]

Ok perhaps there could be the argument that it's better than today's beef, which is ful of antibiotics and stuff, but not pasture raised

[Hatfort]

@mojsterr

One ingredient doesn't mean one compound, though.

As said before, there are many healthier options than Beyond Burger, which I didn't even mention first, but still better than any beef. Plant-based oils are not the healthiest, yet better than animal-based ones. Plant-based fats are best when eaten with their real fiber and compounds, like whole olives or nuts, not oil extracts. Beet extract is awesome though, they probably use it to give it the red color, but it's great for its antioxidants, that is known.