Voting For Trump

[Clarence]

I'm not American and I don't study politics, but I just came across this text on Facebook from someone I met when I lived in the US. I just wanted to share it because I am shocked.

I can't believe how people can be so ignorant and blind. I feel like no amount of talking could take them out of their wrong view.

Here is the text:

«  Someone recently asked me why I like Trump. My answer was that I don't really like a lot of things about Trump.  

But this election is not about choosing the most likeable person. 

We are voting between two vastly different ideologies. We are voting for the country we want to leave our children and grandchildren. 

Trump represents that future and has proven that he can deliver. He is a patriot to the core and even served his country for 4 years without pay.

That moment when someone says, 
"I can't believe you're voting for Trump". I simply reply, “I'm NOT voting for Trump.”

I'm voting for the First Amendment and freedom of speech. I'm voting for the right to speak my opinion and not be censored. 

I’m voting for secure borders and LEGAL immigration. I am voting for election integrity to include mandatory voter ID.  (Why would anyone vote against this?)

I'm voting for the Second Amendment and my right to defend my life and my family.

I'm voting for the police to be respected once again. 

I am voting for law & order and an end to allowing protesters to trespass and burn our cities, destroying innocent small business. (Tim Walz)

I am voting for personal responsibility and the end of the revolving door where criminals are being put back on the street. (Kamala Harris)

I'm voting for the next Supreme Court Justice(s) to protect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I’m voting for a return of our troops from foreign countries and the end to America’s involvement in foreign conflicts.

I'm voting for the Electoral College and for the Republic in which we live.

I’m voting for the continued appointment of Federal Judges who respect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I’m voting for keeping our jobs to remain in America and not be outsourced all over the world - to China, Mexico and other foreign countries.

I am voting for doing away with all of the freebies given to all of the illegals and not looking after the needs of the American citizens and homeless veterans. 

I'm voting for the military & the veterans who fought for this country 

I'm voting to keep men out of women's sports.

I’m voting for peace progress in the Middle East.

I’m voting to fight against human/child trafficking.

I'm voting for Freedom of Religion. 

I am voting for the return of teaching math, history, and science instead of the indoctrination of our children. 

I'm not just voting for one person. 
I'm voting for the future of my Country.

I'm voting for my children and my grandchildren to ensure their freedoms

America is the greatest country in the world, hense why everyone wants to immigrate here. So why do you want to change it? 
 
Why do politicians want to enact policies that have failed in other countries throughout history?  

I’m voting for Trump.
I'm voting for America. 

Copied and pasted keep it going »

Edited October 24 by Clarence

[enchanted]

There is no limit for the mind to delude itself

[What Am I]

It's perhaps not that shocking. He listed the things he wants, and that he believes voting for Trump has a higher likelihood of those things occurring. It's actually pretty straightforward.

As someone who's uneducated in the intricacies of spiral dynamics, I may be out of line with this opinion, but I feel like I've noticed a flaw in the general theory. When a higher level is reached, isn't it supposed to transcend and include the previous? Meaning that those on a higher stage contain elements of previous stages, and can therefore comprehend them in an accurate way? I feel like I'm seeing an ocean of supposedly advanced people who are mystified at the actions of those beneath them when it comes to the analysis of Trump voters' motivations. Am I just misinterpreting SD, or what am I missing here?

Edited October 24 by What Am I

[Joshe]

30 minutes ago, What Am I said:

It's perhaps not that shocking. He listed the things he wants, and that he believes voting for Trump has a higher likelihood of those things occurring. It's actually pretty straightforward.

The "shock" or confusion comes from people thinking Trump cares about delivering any of the things they want. Healthy minds can clearly see having faith in a con artist to provide the citizenry with anything of value is utter foolishness. That foolishness is what shocks.

The problem is, Trump supporters don't see him as the con man that he is. They say things like "Trump isn't perfect, but he cares about America." 

The healthy minds among us have a hard time acclimating to a reality where a large portion of their fellows flat out reject and deny a truth that is so easy to see, yet they persist in willful ignorance and refuse to see the truth of what is. This happens with religion but the dangers of religion are nowhere near as immediate as the dangers of putting an overtly toxic, Machiavellian narcissistic con artist at the helm of the most powerful country on the planet. 

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who sees Trump as he is, which is a con artist, to say the least. Recognize that every single thing he says, he says to further his personal agenda and is almost certainly a lie. He will lie to Christians, unions, Jews, hurricane victims, etc. He will lie to every single demographic and he will make them believe he cares about them with all his heart and he's the strong man to make their dreams a reality. To see those demographics fall for his overt con artistry is disturbing. 

The best rebuttal a Trump apologist could give here is introduce a both-sides argument, but if they do that, they just demonstrate they can't see what Trump is, and this is yet another facet that contributes to the shock, confusion, and disturbance of healthy minds. We livin' in the upside down bro.

Edited October 24 by Joshe

[zazen]

I follow a philosophy show and heard a take on the new alliance between Tech and Trads. Here is how they are viewing it:

''What I love about this phenomenon of the tech right, what really encourages me is the team being put in place. Let's imagine he doesn't. Still, the team is not magically going to disappear. The people who have been brought together will stay together, I think, to some extent to plan for the future. But what's brilliant about this movement is that it combines people who have the tech expertise, which is an important part of the picture, the experience in leading large projects to successful outcomes that you can see, you know, so not just some sort of speculative concept of a plan, but hey, look, we actually launched the rocket, caught it on the first try. So they have the technical expertise.

They have the experience in putting wins up on the board, actually, that people can see. They have demonstrated proof of efficiency. And they have in their circles and around their circles, people who are discussing Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Strauss, Nietzsche, as well and others you know whether we consider Bannon who in his own way is bookish or Thiel who in his own way is bookish the beautiful thing about this movement at the moment to my mind is that it is combining and collecting and connecting these various These various skill sets and advantages and aligning them, you know, great alignment of mutual interest here where you don't just have the bookish people who have no operational skills. You don't just have the operators who have no clue about who, you know, Machiavelli was or why Aristotle is important. You have them together. And that I think is exciting

We've gotten used to expecting things to stay the same or get worse i think and it's refreshing and it's exciting to have the prospect on the table of things turning around I should say that um El Salvador, another case which I don't want to claim any sort of special expertise in this area, but El Salvador showed that it's possible for a country to turn around. I don't think you have many cases in the world where you look at a place and you can sort of say, and even more importantly, somehow feel that it's moving in the right direction. I feel like broadly the zeitgeist is not that. Okay. But in El Salvador, it was clearly the case that they took something that was extremely bad - murder capital of the world. They turned it around in a way that palpable in a way that actually made families feel safe. 

Bukele's clear embrace of innovators, of entrepreneurs, of weirdos, of eccentrics, but of people who are going to put something something new and exciting into the air i felt that there and I can see the parallelism with the current team in and around trump in a good way and so musk is sort of for me, he crystallizes all of that. So does it mean that it's going to be, you know, platonically perfect philosopher kingship? No, it doesn't. You know, does it mean that it's going to be a reorientation towards virtue in the sense of, let's say, the contemplation of eternal truths and things like that? No, not at all.

It's going to be probably the spirit of American pragmatism, which in truth is what works, and you have innovation dynamism, invention, discovery, creativity, and excitement for the whole world. ''

Edited October 24 by zazen

[Clarence]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

It's perhaps not that shocking. He listed the things he wants, and that he believes voting for Trump has a higher likelihood of those things occurring. It's actually pretty straightforward.

Correct, but that makes the text—and this kind of thinking—even more sneaky and deceptive. It makes it sound as if it were rational and good to vote for Trump, even for people who don't like him.

To me, it is shocking that some people can rationalize their vote in this way, putting aside all of his flaws. They fail to reflect on the reasons why they dislike him in the first place, pretending it's not that important, when in fact it is extremely important. It is not possible to separate Trump from Trump, yet they speak as if they could. It's such a deep issue, and it’s scary to read that from people you know.

Edited October 24 by Clarence

[What Am I]

25 minutes ago, Joshe said:

The "shock" or confusion comes from people thinking Trump cares about delivering any of the things they want. Healthy minds can clearly see having faith in a con artist to provide the citizenry with anything of value is utter foolishness. That foolishness is what shocks.

The problem is, Trump supporters don't see him as the con man that he is. They say things like "Trump isn't perfect, but he cares about America." 

The healthy minds among us have a hard time acclimating to a reality where a large portion of their fellows flat out reject and deny a truth that is so easy to see, yet they persist in willful ignorance and refuse to see the truth of what is. This happens with religion but the dangers of religion are nowhere near as immediate as the dangers of putting an overtly toxic, Machiavellian narcissistic con artist at the helm of the most powerful country on the planet. 

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who sees Trump as he is, which is a con artist, to say the least. Recognize that every single thing he says, he says to further his personal agenda and is almost certainly a lie. He will lie to Christians, unions, Jews, hurricane victims, etc. He will lie to every single demographic and he will make them believe he cares about them with all his heart and he's the strong man to make their dreams a reality. To see those demographics fall for his overt con artistry is disturbing. 

The best rebuttal a Trump apologist could give here is introduce a both-sides argument, but if they do that, they just demonstrate they can't see what Trump is, and this is yet another facet that contributes to the shock, confusion, and disturbance of healthy minds. We livin' in the upside down bro.

Thanks, that does help in providing a clearer view into the mindset I'm describing. I have to say though, I still find it a bit odd to observe the continuous bafflement that so many display. Is it the nature of stage green to be always surprised at the actions of the previous stages? It seems like at some point, those actions should be expected and taken in stride. You personally may have a fleshed-out conception that you're working with, but I'm not entirely convinced that's true for all others.

I'm not completely unsympathetic to your point of view, and I certainly see how you got to your conclusion. But if you were 100% honest with yourself, isn't there a reality where some, or even many, of the outcomes listed in the OP indeed do have a higher likelihood of happening in a Trump presidency as opposed to the alternative? Isn't it possible to imagine an individual who desires certain aspects of life that are simply contradictory to a Democratic party rule, and they're making a choice between their perception of the lesser evil, even when accounting for the risk of the dangerous individual that is Trump? I think many on the left are making a similar judgement with Kamala Harris, as she's not universally loved, but there seems to be a gap in the conception of a reasonable individual weighing the same options in the reverse. A fair question to ask may be whether it's possible for someone to vote for Trump without being conned into it.

[Clarence]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

The "shock" or confusion comes from people thinking Trump cares about delivering any of the things they want. Healthy minds can clearly see having faith in a con artist to provide the citizenry with anything of value is utter foolishness. That foolishness is what shocks.

The problem is, Trump supporters don't see him as the con man that he is. They say things like "Trump isn't perfect, but he cares about America." 

The healthy minds among us have a hard time acclimating to a reality where a large portion of their fellows flat out reject and deny a truth that is so easy to see, yet they persist in willful ignorance and refuse to see the truth of what is. This happens with religion but the dangers of religion are nowhere near as immediate as the dangers of putting an overtly toxic, Machiavellian narcissistic con artist at the helm of the most powerful country on the planet. 

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who sees Trump as he is, which is a con artist, to say the least. Recognize that every single thing he says, he says to further his personal agenda and is almost certainly a lie. He will lie to Christians, unions, Jews, hurricane victims, etc. He will lie to every single demographic and he will make them believe he cares about them with all his heart and he's the strong man to make their dreams a reality. To see those demographics fall for his overt con artistry is disturbing. 

The best rebuttal a Trump apologist could give here is introduce a both-sides argument, but if they do that, they just demonstrate they can't see what Trump is, and this is yet another facet that contributes to the shock, confusion, and disturbance of healthy minds. We livin' in the upside down bro.

Thanks, it's very well expressed.

[What Am I]

9 minutes ago, Clarence said:

Correct, but that makes the text—and this kind of thinking—even more sneaky and deceptive. It makes it sound as if it were rational and good to vote for Trump, even for people who don't like him.

To me, it is shocking that some people can rationalize their vote in this way, putting aside all of his flaws. They fail to reflect on the reasons why they dislike him in the first place, pretending it's not that important, when in fact it is extremely important. It is not possible to separate Trump from Trump, yet they speak as if they could. It's such a deep issue, and it’s scary to read that from people you know.

Right, pretty reasonable explanation on your part, but refer to my last post to Joshe. You guys are speaking with quite a bit of certainty and authority on what's possible for other people to think and feel. I believe that it's possible we live in a world where you guys in fact don't know everything lol.

And to be clear, I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong, but it always bugs me a bit to see a kind of assumed dominion over others, and I guess I felt compelled to speak out and represent the alternative as a type of steel man.

[UnbornTao]

Jesus...

Edited October 24 by UnbornTao

[josemar]

6 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Right, pretty reasonable explanation on your part, but refer to my last post to Joshe. You guys are speaking with quite a bit of certainty and authority on what's possible for other people to think and feel. I believe that it's possible we live in a world where you guys in fact don't know everything lol.

And to be clear, I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong, but it always bugs me a bit to see a kind of assumed dominion over others, and I guess I felt compelled to speak out and represent the alternative as a type of steel man.

Well expressed, I couldn't be bothered to  write about my bafflement at their bafflement.

Can we not see the institution of the president outside of the actual person performing the function? If people like the promises one side makes over another, what would make them vote for the opposing side, "well the particular  individual chosen to fulfill those promises might have done some bad things"... Right, but is that enough to vote for the opposing side, and abandon all hope for what you actually want implemented?

Yes, they're only promises for now, but Kamala had almost 4 years in power and she still blames Trump for ...  being a presidential candidate? The mind baffles 👼

Edited October 24 by josemar

[Buck Edwards]

Voting for trump is absolutely absurdity. 

[Yimpa]

5 hours ago, enchanted said:

There is no limit for the mind to delude itself

Unless you commit a posting spree on this forum, in which you will inevitably have to go 

 

[Joshe]

7 hours ago, What Am I said:

Is it the nature of stage green to be always surprised at the actions of the previous stages? It seems like at some point, those actions should be expected and taken in stride.

Do you think if someone understands Trumpism from stage yellow or higher that they're automatically not energetically moved when the phenomenon comes into perception? If someone is engaged in a conversation about Trumpism, they might seem more intense if there was just a stream of appaling developments whereas in another conversation a week later, they might say, "yeah, Trumpism is just a fact of reality.", because their focus might be elsewhere. Many things can modulate the degree to which someone crusades for their values or condemns that which trample upon them. SD is too high-level to apply to individual psychology. 

7 hours ago, What Am I said:

But if you were 100% honest with yourself, isn't there a reality where some, or even many, of the outcomes listed in the OP indeed do have a higher likelihood of happening in a Trump presidency as opposed to the alternative?

Did you read the list? lol. Trump is going to make people respect the police? Trump is going to protect the constitution? A vote for Trump is a vote for law and order? The one thing Trump could maybe deliver is to keep the 10 or so trans men out of women's sports. 

You know that the vast majority of Trump supporters are not his supporters because of how he governs, right? They are his supporters largely due to monkey-see monkey-do mimetics. For example, I have a cousin who was wearing a "Let's go Brandon" bracelet. He was never political at all so I asked him why he had it and he responded with a laugh and an "I don't know". Well guess what... I do know. He likes to identify with being a tough guy. The candidate that says "fuck you" is his favorite, as long as others like him too. He saw others on the bandwagon and thought it was cool, so he hopped on. 

Obviously, the answer to your question is yes, they may achieve some semblance of what they think they want, but that's primarily the elimination of fabricated fears they've been propagandized with. The issue here though is this "reasoning" is a facade to give the appearance of being rational, but in reality it's formed to disguise the actual drivers, which is usually a deep-seated need for belonging and identity within a tribe that validates them, but it depends on which cohort you're talking about. 

9 hours ago, What Am I said:

A fair question to ask may be whether it's possible for someone to vote for Trump without being conned into it.

Many of the ultra-rich aren’t fooled; they support him simply for the tax cuts, so yes, it’s possible. And I believe many of his supporters weren’t deceived at first; they were drawn to the Trump camp through mimetic behavior. Once there, they felt compelled to uphold a consistent identity and worldview, which led them to overlook the falsehoods while gradually embracing more tribal rhetoric. This, in turn, forces them to accept Trump’s lies as truths. 

Basically, there is no good rationale for supporting Trump as president of the U.S and anyone who does is a fool. This is a fact, no matter how much you dislike it. 

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Do you think if someone understands Trumpism from stage yellow or higher that they're automatically not energetically moved when the phenomenon comes into perception? If someone is engaged in a conversation about Trumpism, they might seem more intense if there was just a stream of appaling developments whereas in another conversation a week later, they might say, "yeah, Trumpism is just a fact of reality.", because their focus might be elsewhere. Many things can modulate the degree to which someone crusades for their values or condemns that which trample upon them. SD is too high-level to apply to individual psychology.

Maybe you're right where spiral dynamics is concerned. For whatever reason, I've never done a deep dive into it to gain a solid understanding, so my knowledge is as surface-level as it gets. Though I have heard Ken Wilber emphasize many times that the map is not to be confused with the territory, and that's probably an important lesson to keep in mind in terms of limiting expectations when applying SD practically.

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Did you read the list? lol. Trump is going to make people respect the police? Trump is going to protect the constitution? A vote for Trump is a vote for law and order? The one thing Trump could maybe deliver is to keep the 10 or so trans men out of women's sports. 

You know that the vast majority of Trump supporters are not his supporters because of how he governs, right? They are his supporters largely due to monkey-see monkey-do mimetics. For example, I have a cousin who was wearing a "Let's go Brandon" bracelet. He was never political at all so I asked him why he had it and he responded with a laugh and an "I don't know". Well guess what... I do know. He likes to identify with being a tough guy. The candidate that says "fuck you" is his favorite, as long as others like him too. He saw others on the bandwagon and thought it was cool, so he hopped on. 

Obviously, the answer to your question is yes, they may achieve some semblance of what they think they want, but that's primarily the elimination of fabricated fears they've been propagandized with. The issue here though is this "reasoning" is a facade to give the appearance of being rational, but in reality it's formed to disguise the actual drivers, which is usually a deep-seated need for belonging and identity within a tribe that validates them, but it depends on which cohort you're talking about.

I appreciate in your third paragraph how you allowed a little bit of open-mindedness towards a new way of looking at things, but then you mentioned that even if Trump supporters do get what they want, they only want it because they were manipulated into that opinion. Jeez lol, so many of you are just so uncharitable. It reminds me of the self-assuredness and self-righteousness typically displayed by kids of college age, which I'm sure many of this forum's members actually are. For those of us who have lived more years and witnessed our own views change with time, it can be a real turnoff to see young people so sure of what they think they know about themselves and others. Maybe because it digs up memories of how we used to be.

I don't think we'll find common ground on the topic, but I appreciate you taking the time to express yourself. I can't pretend you're not skillful at making your points, and it's helpful on my part to get a closer look at the psychology from someone who's eloquent enough to clearly express an idea.

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Many of the ultra-rich aren’t fooled; they support him simply for the tax cuts, so yes, it’s possible. And I believe many of his supporters weren’t deceived at first; they were drawn to the Trump camp through mimetic behavior. Once there, they felt compelled to uphold a consistent identity and worldview, which led them to overlook the falsehoods while gradually embracing more tribal rhetoric. This, in turn, forces them to accept Trump’s lies as truths. 

Basically, there is no good rationale for supporting Trump as president of the U.S and anyone who does is a fool. This is a fact, no matter how much you dislike it. 

Sorry to see you claim that with such certainty. It's quite a gamble on your part to take such a stance, because it closes the door leading towards unity and widens the one leading to conflict. I realize you're far from the only person with that point of view, but as you're someone who's loosely aware of our literal shared existence as Consciousness, it'd be nice to attempt living as if it were actually the case.

Edited October 25 by What Am I

[Clarence]

20 hours ago, What Am I said:

As someone who's uneducated in the intricacies of spiral dynamics, I may be out of line with this opinion, but I feel like I've noticed a flaw in the general theory. When a higher level is reached, isn't it supposed to transcend and include the previous? Meaning that those on a higher stage contain elements of previous stages, and can therefore comprehend them in an accurate way? I feel like I'm seeing an ocean of supposedly advanced people who are mystified at the actions of those beneath them when it comes to the analysis of Trump voters' motivations. Am I just misinterpreting SD, or what am I missing here?

18 hours ago, What Am I said:

Thanks, that does help in providing a clearer view into the mindset I'm describing. I have to say though, I still find it a bit odd to observe the continuous bafflement that so many display. Is it the nature of stage green to be always surprised at the actions of the previous stages? It seems like at some point, those actions should be expected and taken in stride. You personally may have a fleshed-out conception that you're working with, but I'm not entirely convinced that's true for all others.

18 hours ago, What Am I said:

Right, pretty reasonable explanation on your part, but refer to my last post to Joshe. You guys are speaking with quite a bit of certainty and authority on what's possible for other people to think and feel. I believe that it's possible we live in a world where you guys in fact don't know everything lol.

And to be clear, I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong, but it always bugs me a bit to see a kind of assumed dominion over others, and I guess I felt compelled to speak out and represent the alternative as a type of steel man.

7 hours ago, What Am I said:

It reminds me of the self-assuredness and self-righteousness typically displayed by kids of college age, which I'm sure many of this forum's members actually are.

Yes, in Spiral Dynamics, you're supposed to transcend and include each stage, which basically means embodying the positive and healthy parts of each.

Starting from Tier 2, you can easily see the whole spiral and understand why people act the way they do from the stage(s) they are at.

Personally, I am not baffled, I'm astonished. I understand that people are at different stages of cognitive development, which both limits their understanding of reality and shapes their aspirations and actions. I also know that it's not something one can evolve past easily.

But I'm astonished at people in general—even if I can understand them from a historical and psychological standpoint—because people's judgment and thinking mistakes are sometimes enormous. So it seems surreal to me that it's even possible.

Honestly, I haven't found a solution yet to stop being so surprised by the world. I'm not a "self-assured and self-righteous" person. I actually question everything a lot, including myself and my thinking. So I know I can always be wrong about something and that I have to be ready to admit it if someone (or life) points it out to me. But I know that it is right and best to question the world deeply and be ready to admit one's mistakes if they appear, for the general advancement of the world.

Yet, it is hard for me to comprehend that other people's psyches don't work the same way as mine. I don't understand why the world is not inherently interested in metaphysical topics or in working to embody the highest values, such as integrity, honesty, understanding, respect, metaphysical love, etc.

I do understand that it just is this way, but this is the mystery that confuses my mind the most. It feels as if I jumped straight to Tier 2. I spent some time studying Orange (taking action, working towards goals) and Green (saving animals and the planet) when I was young, but that was because I hadn't stumbled upon higher kinds of material. 

It still required a lot of effort to let go of the Green ideology I had bought into - the main point for me being that the world should go vegan and work towards reducing animal suffering, as I was extremely sensitive to it. I turned vegan at age 13 and started defending this worldview, despite my introverted nature. But still, as time went on, the realization that something didn't feel completely right about it grew stronger and stronger. The vegan community and the kind of speech they held was off for me.

I didn't understand why they were not more mature, as vegans. Now I can see that the problem in this community was to be found in the manifestation of Green and its excesses. Most vegans don't think in a holistic manner. They haven't reached stage Yellow and beyond yet, while it was already in me. But I didn't know that at the time, so I was confused, and there was virtually no Tier 2 people around me I could have looked up to as examples.

I don't know if it gets clearer for you with those explanations. I'm not just astounded by the way others function, I'm also astounded by the way I function. Basically, what I don't understand is why things are the way they are. You could say it's due to genetics or that it is just human nature or Reality, but why are our genetics this way, and why is human nature this way? 

Most of the world is not interested in understanding Reality (God), or in learning to embody the kind of values I listed above. And that is frustrating for me, because the world would likely be a better place if most people on the planet had moved past Tier 1.

So I'm feeling both astonishment and a bit of frustration, because I deeply wished people on the planet were more advanced as a whole. Still, I mostly accept things as they are… but a part of me wished things were a bit different, which may be what I expressed in an unskillful manner in the opening of this thread. It comes from the limitations of my own current understanding or acceptance of Reality at large.

So I think that I have to learn to deeply center myself and calm my mind down to ease those feelings and transform them into something more mature. Maybe there is some self-assuredness in me, which you might be right about, but it comes from hours of contemplation and introspection. It took me years to figure out what was right and what wasn't for me (and I'm still not done). I don't blindly follow beliefs or ideas like we see many people do. I question very deeply, and only then do I secure in myself the ideas that I feel are right. But I never stop questioning, and there are many domains in which I don't have a deep enough knowledge about to reach full understanding. This is a work forever in progress.

Do those explanations help?

[What Am I]

45 minutes ago, Clarence said:

Do those explanations help?

Yeah, thanks, it really does help in both better understanding SD and how it's being applied. It bridged a gap between the teachings and my own way of viewing the world. If I were being honest, it continues to surprise me as well how something as significant as real spirituality can go unnoticed by so many, despite the signposts being literally everywhere for all to see. Denial can be so intense that even many of those who've had a 5-MeO-DMT or DMT breakthrough aren't able to put 2 and 2 together.

51 minutes ago, Clarence said:

It still required a lot of effort to let go of the Green ideology I had bought into - the main point for me being that the world should go vegan and work towards reducing animal suffering, as I was extremely sensitive to it. I turned vegan at age 13 and started defending this worldview, despite my introverted nature. But still, as time went on, the realization that something didn't feel completely right about it grew stronger and stronger. The vegan community and the kind of speech they held was off for me.

I didn't understand why they were not more mature, as vegans. Now I can see that the problem in this community was to be found in the manifestation of Green and its excesses. Most vegans don't think in a holistic manner. They haven't reached stage Yellow and beyond yet, while it was already in me. But I didn't know that at the time, so I was confused, and there was virtually no Tier 2 people around me I could have looked up to as examples.

Nice, a militant adherence to the ideology of veganism and then a later questioning of said adherence is a good example of the type of growth I was describing that often comes with age. Interesting to know this common phenomenon has an explanation in SD.

[Joshe]

11 hours ago, What Am I said:

I appreciate in your third paragraph how you allowed a little bit of open-mindedness towards a new way of looking at things, but then you mentioned that even if Trump supporters do get what they want, they only want it because they were manipulated into that opinion. Jeez lol, so many of you are just so uncharitable.

I appreciate you explaining your perspective and I understand your viewpoints and you do point out legitimate issues, but it seems as if you're either avoiding or lacking some psychological and historical understanding because my statement is not a matter of opinion. 

Since you don't seem to know it's a fact that most Trump supporters have their positions because they were given to them via propaganda and mimetic behavior, let me illustrate how the Christian-right's #1 policy concern was never a concern until political strategists drilled it into them.

Did you know the Bible doesn't take a stance on abortion? So why is the Christian-right so up in arms about it? Did they intelligently arrive at their position? We don't have to be charitable here if we know the answer to the question: Why is abortion #1 on the list of their political concerns? 

The answer is they were strategically manipulated. The manipulation was mostly implemented by Paul Weyrich. The purpose was to motivate one of the largest demographics in America to get out and vote for the republican candidate, who was being lobbied by Big Christian elites. This is a fact which you can verify yourself. Here's a docu that explains more: https://tubitv.com/movies/100020971/bad-faith. If you don't want to watch it, just look up Paul Weyrich. 

So when I see a Trump supporter crusading for anti-abortion policy, generally speaking, I know the truth of how they arrived at that position. I'm not in doubt so why would I be charitable to anything other than the truth? It's not mere speculation from a lazy mind seeking to demonize. It's acceptance of a truth that was derived from years of deep insights into human psychology and a little bit of historical knowledge. You can say this truth can be toxic and hard to integrate healthfully, and I would agree. 

Maybe this truth is unsettling to you because you don't know how to be in harmony with your fellows if they are this low-conscious, which is a real problem and not an easy one to solve, as OP and myself acknowledge. Like OP, I do experience resentment and agitation and sometimes even anger and hate of the willful ignorance that paves the way for toxicity, and I've not yet chosen to be above it and lovingly accept it as opposed to critically condemn it, but of course, you're right that it would be wise to do so. 

Edited October 25 by Joshe

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Did you know the Bible doesn't take a stance on abortion? So why is the Christian-right so up in arms about it? Did they intelligently arrive at their position? We don't have to be charitable here if we know the answer to the question: Why is abortion #1 on the list of their political concerns?

There seems to be a flaw here, though. Isn't it possible to imagine a person (or group of people) coming to an intuitive conclusion regarding the potential immorality of abortion without any external manipulation needed? It's my understanding that many cultures outside of the West also view abortion as an abomination, including remote tribes who are unexposed to modern ways of thought.

Wouldn't your claim be similar to saying that all those in support of abortion were fooled by Margaret Sanger, with the hidden goal of lessening the population of "inferior" African American stock? I believe both claims are ignoring the modern individual's ability to form their own conclusion, regardless of how the original movement was started.

Inversely to your opinion about those who are anti-abortion, do you believe those in favor of abortion have a view that's purely their own, born exclusively of critical thought?

To be clear on my own views, I don't actually care much about abortion, and I recognize its potential value in terms of convenience. I think it's likely the human body is some kind of vessel for transcendent hyperdimensional awareness and therefore more disposable than how we've historically treated it.

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

The answer is they were strategically manipulated. The manipulation was mostly implemented by Paul Weyrich. The purpose was to motivate one of the largest demographics in America to get out and vote for the republican candidate, who was being lobbied by Big Christian elites. This is a fact which you can verify yourself. Here's a docu that explains more: https://tubitv.com/movies/100020971/bad-faith. If you don't want to watch it, just look up Paul Weyrich.

Interesting stuff, though. I was not aware of this.

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

There seems to be a flaw here, though. Isn't it possible to imagine a person (or group of people) coming to an intuitive conclusion regarding the potential immorality of abortion without any external manipulation needed? It's my understanding that many cultures outside of the West also view abortion as an abomination, including remote tribes who are unexposed to modern ways of thought.

Wouldn't your claim be similar to saying that all those in support of abortion were fooled by Margaret Sanger, with the hidden goal of lessening the population of "inferior" African American stock? I believe both claims are ignoring the modern individual's ability to form their own conclusion, regardless of how the original movement was started.

Inversely to your opinion about those who are anti-abortion, do you believe those in favor of abortion have a view that's purely their own, born exclusively of critical thought?

There is no flaw. I did not say everyone who is anti-abortion is a non-thinking sheep. I said, "generally speaking". You keep dancing around the point. 

What do you make of the fact that before political strategists manipulated the Christians into caring about abortion, evangelical Christians were not concerned with it?

This is a clear example of the unconscious behavior that I'm talking about. And here's the thing... within a large group of Christians, some of them are thinkers. The thinking types care more about logical consistency for their positions than the non-thinking types, so there will obviously be attempts to use reason to justify their inherited positions. This is basic psychology. People get indoctrinated with ideas and beliefs and then they seek good reason for them. You can almost always trace back their positions to having no solid ground in reality. If you ask them why they care about the 2nd amendment, their answer will be the best answer they have been provided with. If such nonsense was never propagandized and used for political strategy, they wouldn't care two shits about the 2nd amendment. Some would, but the vast majority would not. Same with immigration. The vast majority who care about immigration are just dumb racists who use the best talking points available to justify their crusade. I'm not saying there are no good arguments for these positions. I'm saying that the majority who support them are doing so out of unconscious mimetic behavior, propaganda, and things like this. This is clearly the truth and it's so obvious.

And of course, the left does this too, but at least you can usually trace their positions back to solid ground. A climate activist might be propagandized but they at least can usually articulate good reason for their activism. 

Do you personally know any right wingers? If you do, this should all be obvious. 

Edited October 25 by Joshe