War Ethics

[zazen]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Consider that this word got so much charge that right now as long as this word is keep being used, it will make it more difficult for the discussion to be reasonable.

True, I've changed it to Ultra-Zionist to specify it is the more extremer strand of Zionist that thinks that way.

[Raze]

Quote

“We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”

https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

[Vercingetorix]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

 

Gaza is a extremely small and densely populated area, making it almost impossible to have distinct military zones. This means that any military activity by Hamas inevitably takes place in civilian areas. What makes Gaza unique is the fact that Gazans have no where to escape the conflict to let the two sides battle it out - which is why the global community urged Israel to be restrained and not continue its bombing campaign.

So do you think that if Hamas could, they would hide and shoot their rockets from non civilian places? that they don't have a strategy to hide beneath schools, hospitals etc. because  they knew in the past that Israel would usually refrain from bombing such places?

And what about Hezbollah? you wouldn't claim that there isn't enough space in Lebanon like Gaza would you. because it seems they use exactly the same tactics of hiding their bases and ammunitions in civilian places as a strategy.

[Vercingetorix]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

interesting read. this is IDF response:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-defence-forces-response-to-claims-about-use-of-lavender-ai-database-in-gaza

[Raze]

16 hours ago, Nivsch said:

If IDF would initiate attacks aimed to Palestinian civilians killing hunderds or thousands of them, then yes, I would justify bombing Tel Aviv when chasing its commanders, because it is unacceptable that any force will decide by itself to hunt civilians whenever it wants and have a free hand to do so.

- Oct 7 had a smaller ratio of civilian to combatant deaths than the IDFs own claimed ratio for the war in Gaza, so now are you ok with Palestinians bombing Tel Aviv?

- In Qibya Ariel Sharon directly ordered the killing of dozens of civilians for no military purpose, so would you have supported Palestinians sending a suicide bomber after him even when he’s in a crowd of Israeli civilians at any point after that?

Edited October 24 by Raze

[Raze]

10 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

interesting read. this is IDF response:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-defence-forces-response-to-claims-about-use-of-lavender-ai-database-in-gaza

This reply claims they pick munitions to create lower civilian casualties and that they don’t fire on Hamas if they are around civilians. Yet multiple news outlets report they mostly use unguided dumb bombs and dropped 2K lb bombs where they told civilians to flee, and they themselves admit to bombing refugee camps that kill dozens of civilians to get one Hamas commander. 

[Leo Gura]

IDF is pure propaganda. Nothing they say is to be trusted.

[Jayson G]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

IDF is pure propaganda. Nothing they say is to be trusted.

@Leo Gura from a spiral dynamics perspective, I think IDF and Israel has a lot of patriotism as a factor, or something in their propaganda that can turn even great thinkers blinded. I am thinking yuval noah harari, for example. It's surprising because on all fronts, he is a great thinker. He is even a historian beyond national identity, but when it comes to his national identity and his people of Israel, he thinks only his people are suffering in this war. I actually can not comprehend how powerful this national identity patriotism is. 

Yuval is actually brilliant in the sense that he is one of the few thinkers on AI that can look outside of AI to pull important insights into the future of AI. So he is a very good holistic thinker, and still his national identity completely blinded him on something so obvious. It's actually quite shocking. 

I also think IDF is luring people in with some aspect of patriotism in the whole country. One of my friends joined IDF, just a normal guy who is not radical in any way, and I can see it is mainly just to fight for his country, and that's it. 

[Raze]

6 hours ago, Jayson G said:

 he thinks only his people are suffering in this war.

He doesn’t, he’s acknowledged Palestinian suffering. 

[Jayson G]

6 hours ago, Raze said:

He doesn’t, he’s acknowledged Palestinian suffering. 

@Raze but does he think the people of Israel faced a much greater suffering?