North vs South Korea Bullshit

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Davino said:

In my country many heavy capitalists take a plane to live in the USA or a very business focused country nearby called Andorra.

Never I see my fellow communist camarades taking a plane to settle in Venezuela, Cuba or North Korea.

How come?

Because they wanna enjoy their overpriced matcha latte and be able to protest against the patriarchy and after going home and watching netflix on their iphones.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

@Leo Gura How is North Korea a failed state when they produce such slick military ads? 

 

[Nemra]

44 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

I thought it was a gay awareness video. 😋

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

@Leo Gura How is North Korea a failed state when they produce such slick military ads? 

 

Gosh and lord baby jesus why is this north korean guy punching a helpless tree?

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Gosh and lord baby jesus why is this north korean guy punching a helpless tree?

This is elite. I love this ad. I'd join!

[Leo Gura]

I asked Claude:

Leo:

Has there been any good research or understanding of how much sanctions affect a nation's development? I'm wondering about to what extent scanctions are responsible for the lack of success of nations like Cuba, Iran, and North Korea vs how much is it their own fault of bad governance, lack of development, ideology, Marxism, corruption, bad geography, etc.

Claude:

This is a complex question that economists and political scientists have studied. Here's what research suggests:

1. Measuring sanctions' impact is difficult because:
   - Hard to isolate sanctions from other factors
   - Countries adapt over time
   - Different types of sanctions have varying effects
   - Limited data from closed societies

2. General findings:
   - Comprehensive sanctions typically reduce GDP by 1-5% annually
   - Impact usually strongest in first 1-2 years
   - Effects often diminish as countries adapt
   - Targeted sanctions have less economic impact

3. Case-specific factors:

Cuba:
- Sanctions estimated to cost $130 billion over time
- But central planning and inefficient state control major factors
- Tourism and remittances help offset impacts

Iran:
- Oil export restrictions most impactful
- Has diversified economy to reduce vulnerability
- Internal economic mismanagement significant
- Corruption and bureaucracy major issues

North Korea:
- Sanctions impact severe but difficult to quantify
- Juche ideology and central planning primary barriers
- Geographic/natural resource challenges significant

4. Other important factors:
   - Political system quality
   - Education levels
   - Infrastructure
   - Geographic location
   - Natural resources
   - Trading partners
   - Technology access

5. Consensus view:
   - Sanctions are a significant hindrance but rarely the primary cause of underdevelopment
   - Internal governance and policy choices typically more decisive
   - Effects vary greatly based on country circumstances

Most experts believe that while sanctions create real obstacles, domestic policy choices and governance issues are usually more fundamental to development outcomes.

[Nemra]

By Claude AI.

North Korea, officially known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), is a highly isolated and centrally planned economy.

Information about its internal affairs, including social programs, is limited and often filtered through state propaganda or external observers with limited access.

With that caveat in mind, here are some social programs that have reportedly been implemented in North Korea:

1. Universal healthcare system: North Korea claims to provide free healthcare to all citizens. While the quality and accessibility of this care are often questioned by outside observers, the system does exist on paper.
2. Education: The country reports a high literacy rate and provides free compulsory education for children. Again, the quality and content of this education are subjects of debate.
3. Housing allocation: The government reportedly assigns housing to citizens, although the quality and availability of housing vary greatly depending on one's status and location.
4. Food distribution: The Public Distribution System (PDS) was established to provide food rations to the population. However, this system has faced significant challenges, especially since the 1990s famine, and many North Koreans now rely on informal markets for food.
5. Social security: There is a nominal social security system that includes provisions for old age, disability, and survivors' benefits. The effectiveness and reach of this system are unclear.
6. Child care: The state provides child care facilities, allowing women to participate in the workforce. The quality and availability of these services may vary.
7. Employment guarantee: In theory, the state assigns jobs to citizens, although this system has been strained by economic difficulties.

It's crucial to note that while these programs exist on paper, their implementation, quality, and accessibility are often severely limited due to economic constraints, systemic issues, and the prioritization of military spending over social welfare. Many of these programs have deteriorated significantly since the economic crisis of the 1990s.

Moreover, access to these social services is often tied to one's position in the songbun system, a socio-political classification structure that categorizes citizens based on their perceived loyalty to the regime. This means that many citizens, especially those deemed less loyal or living in rural areas, may have limited or no access to these programs.

The effectiveness of these programs is difficult to assess due to lack of transparent data and limited access for international observers. Reports from defectors and humanitarian organizations often paint a picture of severe shortages in healthcare, food, and other basic necessities for a large portion of the population.

In conclusion, while North Korea has established various social programs in theory, their practical implementation and effectiveness are highly questionable. The country's economic challenges, political system, and international isolation have significantly impacted its ability to provide comprehensive social services to its citizens.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

I asked the exact same question Leo asked, but to ChatGPT

Me: Has there been any good research or understanding of how much sanctions affect a nation's development? I'm wondering about to what extent scanctions are responsible for the lack of success of nations like Cuba, Iran, and North Korea vs how much is it their own fault of bad governance, lack of development, ideology, Marxism, Communism/Socialism, corruption, bad geography, etc.

ChatGPT: There has been significant research into how sanctions affect a nation’s development, but the extent of their impact is still debated, particularly in the context of countries like Cuba, Iran, and North Korea. Sanctions are designed to pressure governments or specific industries by cutting off trade, finance, and technology flows, but their long-term effects on development and governance can vary significantly depending on a range of factors.

 

Key Findings on the Impact of Sanctions:

 

    1.    Economic Contraction: Sanctions typically lead to economic downturns. They restrict access to international markets, which can result in inflation, reduced foreign exchange reserves, and stunted industrial growth. Research suggests that countries under prolonged sanctions experience economic contraction, making it harder for them to grow or develop at the same rate as their peers. For example, sanctions have deeply affected Iran’s oil exports and overall economic stability.

    2.    Political and Governance Responses: In many cases, authoritarian governments use sanctions to tighten their grip on power. Rather than fostering regime change, sanctions sometimes allow governments to consolidate power by blaming economic hardship on foreign interference. This has been observed in Cuba and North Korea, where leadership has managed to maintain control despite long-standing sanctions by reinforcing narratives of external enemies and rallying internal support against perceived foreign oppression.

    3.    Humanitarian and Developmental Costs: Sanctions often lead to human suffering, particularly in terms of healthcare, education, and basic infrastructure. For example, in Cuba, the U.S. embargo has been blamed for restricting access to essential medical supplies and technology, which impacts social development and quality of life. In North Korea, sanctions have exacerbated food shortages, though the regime itself plays a significant role in resource mismanagement.

    4.    Impact on Corruption and Informal Economies: Sanctions can lead to increased corruption and the growth of informal markets. Governments, elites, and industries often develop parallel markets to bypass sanctions, further entrenching corruption and inequality. Iran’s “gray market” economy, which allows goods and services to flow illicitly, is one such example. This diverts resources from development and encourages governance that prioritizes survival over reform.

 

The Role of Domestic Factors:

 

While sanctions undoubtedly play a major role in limiting development, it is widely agreed that internal governance, economic management, and ideology are critical factors in the lack of success seen in nations like Cuba, Iran, and North Korea.

 

    •    Cuba: Beyond sanctions, the Cuban government’s adherence to a centralized, socialist economic model has limited the country’s potential for growth. The inefficiency of state-owned industries and tight government control over innovation have hampered development, even as other nations that were once socialist (e.g., China or Vietnam) have embraced more market-driven reforms.

    •    North Korea: North Korea’s isolationist policies and heavy investment in its military-industrial complex have significantly hindered development. Even without sanctions, its highly centralized, authoritarian system and focus on maintaining power through militarization would likely have stunted economic growth. Geography and resource limitations also constrain development, but the state’s mismanagement plays a significant role.

    •    Iran: While sanctions have severely impacted Iran’s economy, especially by restricting oil revenues, internal mismanagement, and corruption have also stifled growth. The country has struggled with high inflation, a lack of diversification, and social unrest, stemming from dissatisfaction with its governance. Its semi-theocratic system prioritizes certain elites and projects, such as military ventures, over economic diversification and social development.

 

Sanctions vs. Internal Governance:

 

    •    Sanctions as an Aggravating Factor: In most cases, sanctions exacerbate existing problems within countries but are rarely the sole cause of underdevelopment. For example, Cuba’s economic challenges began with the collapse of the Soviet Union, which was a major trading partner, while U.S. sanctions worsened an already dire situation. Similarly, North Korea’s economic isolation would still be profound even without sanctions due to its rigid state-controlled system.

    •    Governance and Ideology as Root Causes: Poor governance, adherence to rigid ideological frameworks, and resource mismanagement are often identified as the root causes of underdevelopment in these countries. Sanctions exacerbate these issues, but if these countries had more flexible, open, and market-driven economic policies (like those seen in other nations emerging from socialism), they might have been more resilient in the face of external pressures.

 

Conclusion:

 

Sanctions do limit a nation’s ability to grow economically and access resources, but they are only one piece of the puzzle. Bad governance, ideological rigidity, corruption, and inefficient management often play a more significant role in a country’s long-term development struggles. Sanctions amplify pre-existing challenges but do not entirely account for the lack of success of nations like Cuba, Iran, and North Korea.

Edited October 22 by Husseinisdoingfine

[Husseinisdoingfine]

19 hours ago, Nemra said:

I thought it was a gay awareness video. 😋

I wonder if that video has the capacity to arouse women and gay men.

[Nemra]

34 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

I wonder if that video has the capacity to arouse women and gay men.

Maybe some scenes. 😁

[Bobby_2021]

On 10/21/2024 at 6:32 PM, Thought Art said:

poor and starving it’s cool. 

Stop consuming South Korean propaganda garbage.

Yes, plenty of kids have starved to death thanks to your glorious US regime who enacted cruel sanctions.

Not anymore anymore. 

The HDI rank of NK was 0.766 in 1995 as assessed by the UN. It's medium level of human development. Not "poor and starving". And that was 30 years ago and things would have significantly improved by now. They even have free healthcare and hospitals that would have worked well if not for the crippling sanctions for electrical equipment.

Funny because half of the elderly people are actually living in poverty in south Korea.

[Bobby_2021]

8 hours ago, Nemra said:

With that caveat in mind, here are some social programs that have reportedly been implemented in North Korea:

1. Universal healthcare system: North Korea claims to provide free healthcare to all citizens. While the quality and accessibility of this care are often questioned by outside observers, the system does exist on paper.
2. Education: The country reports a high literacy rate and provides free compulsory education for children. Again, the quality and content of this education are subjects of debate.
3. Housing allocation: The government reportedly assigns housing to citizens, although the quality and availability of housing vary greatly depending on one's status and location.
4. Food distribution: The Public Distribution System (PDS) was established to provide food rations to the population. However, this system has faced significant challenges, especially since the 1990s famine, and many North Koreans now rely on informal markets for food.
5. Social security: There is a nominal social security system that includes provisions for old age, disability, and survivors' benefits. The effectiveness and reach of this system are unclear.
6. Child care: The state provides child care facilities, allowing women to participate in the workforce. The quality and availability of these services may vary.
7. Employment guarantee: In theory, the state assigns jobs to citizens, although this system has been strained by economic difficulties.

@Leo Gura This is the evilness of North Korea. 

Any country that respects it citizens nicely is evil for you. 

The bottom line is US is shit scared to see a well functioning socialist leftist state. They bomb it to rubbles and then say it won't work.

[Bobby_2021]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

North Korea:
- Sanctions impact severe but difficult to quantify

Sanctions in North Korea are particularly damaging because US has effectively bombed them to stone age before enacting sanctions.

All civilians infrastructure from paddy fields to dams were levelled. 

Obviously when you make survival difficult, then they will resort to corruption. That's because making an honest living has been rendered shit by the US war machine that doesn't respect civilian life nor international law.

Then you can blame them for being corrupt like the true neocon regime propaganda tells you to do. 

-----

US lifted sanctions on Vietnam in 1994. Look how much their GDP grew after that. There are second and third order effects of sanctions too that are being dismissed in linear calculations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_per_capita_development_in_Vietnam.svg

And also sanctions do not affect all countries equally. NK was simply hit too hard.

And despite all that they still have medium level of living standards even as far back in the 90s. That's no small feat.

[Nemra]

@Bobby_2021

8 hours ago, Nemra said:

It's crucial to note that while these programs exist on paper, their implementation, quality, and accessibility are often severely limited due to economic constraints, systemic issues, and the prioritization of military spending over social welfare. Many of these programs have deteriorated significantly since the economic crisis of the 1990s.

Moreover, access to these social services is often tied to one's position in the songbun system, a socio-political classification structure that categorizes citizens based on their perceived loyalty to the regime. This means that many citizens, especially those deemed less loyal or living in rural areas, may have limited or no access to these programs.

The effectiveness of these programs is difficult to assess due to lack of transparent data and limited access for international observers. Reports from defectors and humanitarian organizations often paint a picture of severe shortages in healthcare, food, and other basic necessities for a large portion of the population.

In conclusion, while North Korea has established various social programs in theory, their practical implementation and effectiveness are highly questionable. The country's economic challenges, political system, and international isolation have significantly impacted its ability to provide comprehensive social services to its citizens.

You forgot to quote the above.

[Bobby_2021]

@Nemra If the hospitals could access the electronic equipment for logging patient information if not for sanctions, then of course you could serve more people.

Of course you can serve a lesser section of the people if you have to maintain all systems with pen and paper.

If you are so concerned about unequal access then lift sanctions.

2. Defectors always exaggerate. This is typical of all people escaping countries that were victims of past colonial oppression. 

The people who are more eager to leave are also the people most disgusted by the regime so they will spew their hatred of it when they finally escape. You need to take suh reports and put it in context.

3. As far as their nuclear program, you are talking about country that has been levelled by the US. The first job is to ensure that they will not get levelled again. So nukes are a vitality. 

There is no questioning this.

Healthcare comes after nukes. This is a trauma response of a country that is recovering from the biggest bombing campaign in history.

4. Corruption will be a thing. What else do you expect? Destroying their livelihood means they have to resort to corruption to survive. There will be plenty of corruption. 

That's because US had no regard for civilian life and international law.

[zazen]

This debate over whether sanctions negatively impact countries is gets stuck in the technicals. The main point is that if a country has internal problems, does that justify making those problems worse by imposing sanctions?

Sanctions are intended to create pressure that exacerbate economic and political issues that already exist in a target nation. It may not cause a death blow to the country, but a body blow isn’t ethical either, especially when it’s the average citizen getting the brunt of it. It’s essentially collective punishment.

The argument that “internal factors are also to blame” doesn’t absolve the moral responsibility of sanctioning countries. If we know that a country is struggling with governance, corruption, or a failing economy, how can it be ethically justified to further undermine its capacity to develop?

By this logic, if a boat capsizes due to incompetence of the crew and captain (ie politicians) and everyone’s drowning (citizens) - it doesn’t make it okay to pierce their life jackets because the crew and captain wronged you.

Edited October 22 by zazen

[Husseinisdoingfine]

I do have to admit this, you're getting a bit too ideological about this issue. It's not about swapping the "wrong" ideology for the "true" ideology, because there is no thing as a correct ideology. Its about raising the consciousness of society and Government by implementing the correct systems given a society's development, and fostering systems that will encourage the population to rise to a higher value system.

Whether or not North Korea's poverty is caused by sanctions or socialism is irrelevant. That fact is that they are a one party state run by an almost religious adherence to Juche ideology, a BLUE style of Government, accompanied by a nepotistic and strict top-down leadership, RED. 

No matter how much prosperity a society gains from being in a single code, if a society stays in a certain value system for too long, then that value system will eat itself out and corrode itself, and even regress to a previous code. And North Korea refuses to evolve.

[Nemra]

28 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Defectors always exaggerate. This is typical of all people escaping countries that were victims of past colonial oppression.

The people who are more eager to leave are also the people most disgusted by the regime so they will spew their hatred of it when they finally escape. You need to take such reports and put it in context.

I don't buy that. You are underestimating their mental state. It's very cultish there, as much as I saw from videos. 

The proper context is that it's not colonial anymore, and it has to cooperate with other countries if it really thinks about its people.

FYI, the U.S. isn't the only one that sanctions North Korea.

37 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

As far as their nuclear program, you are talking about country that has been levelled by the US. The first job is to ensure that they will not get levelled again. So nukes are a vitality. 

It's mainly focusing on that.

38 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Corruption will be a thing. What else do you expect? Destroying their livelihood means they have to resort to corruption to survive. There will be plenty of corruption. 

They are very closed to the world. We don't even know how corrupt they are. I think it's way worse, especially because there is a cult of personality.

[Nemra]

(Warning: The following might be disturbing)

By Claude AI.

I'll provide an even unvarnished and comprehensive account of North Korea's reality, including disturbing details.

1. Unspeakable Torture Methods:

• Prisoners have reported being forced to sit motionless for days, with any movement resulting in severe beatings or executions.
• Accounts describe prisoners being hung on hooks by their rib cages for hours or days.
• Some victims have had hot iron brands applied to their genitals or have been forced to sit on hot metal plates.
• There are reports of prisoners being slowly lowered into vats of boiling water.

2. Horrific Public Executions:

• Some executions involve tying condemned prisoners to posts and using them for target practice with a variety of weapons.
• In some cases, family members are forced to stone their relatives to death.
• There are accounts of people being executed by being run over with tanks or steamrollers, prolonging their agony.

3. Forced Cannibalism:

• Prisoners have reportedly been forced to eat the flesh of fellow inmates who have been executed.
• During famines, there were reports of parents killing and eating their own children out of desperation.

4. Grotesque Human Experimentation:

• Allegations include testing biological and chemical weapons on families, including children and pregnant women.
• Some accounts describe live vivisections being performed without anesthesia.

5. Extreme Child Abuse:

• Children in labor camps are subjected to backbreaking work, severe beatings, and starvation. Many die from exhaustion or malnutrition.
• There are reports of children being used as human shields or for clearing minefields.

6. Sexual Slavery and Forced Prostitution:

• Young girls are sometimes forcibly recruited into sexual slavery, serving party officials or in state-run brothels catering to tourists.
• Women in prison camps are often raped, with any resulting pregnancies forcibly terminated in brutal ways.

7. Deliberate Starvation:

• The regime has deliberately withheld food aid from areas deemed less loyal, effectively using starvation as a weapon.
• During famines, there were reports of people resorting to eating tree bark, grass, and even human flesh.

8. Horrific Prison Camp Conditions:

• Prisoners are often worked to death in mines or logging camps, with many dying from accidents, beatings, or exhaustion.
• Survivors describe having to compete with rats for food scraps and drinking from puddles contaminated with animal and human waste.

9. Psychological Torture:

• Prisoners are sometimes forced to watch the torture or execution of family members.
• Children are indoctrinated to inform on their parents, destroying family trust.

10. Medical Atrocities:

• There are accounts of forced abortions being performed by injecting motor oil into women's wombs or by beating their abdomens with wooden boards.
• Disabled infants are reportedly killed or left to die due to the regime's obsession with racial purity.

11. Brutal Punishment for Attempted Escape:

• Those caught trying to escape the country are often publicly executed in gruesome ways as a deterrent.
• Entire families of escapees are sometimes imprisoned or executed under the principle of guilt by association.

12. Weaponized Famine:

• The regime has deliberately exacerbated famines to control the population, viewing mass starvation as preferable to loosening its grip on power.

13. Dehumanization:

• The regime's propaganda portrays certain groups (like Japanese or Americans) as subhuman, fostering extreme racism and xenophobia.
• Disabled people are reportedly banished from Pyongyang to remote areas in an attempt to create a "pure" capital city.

14. Environmental Devastation:

• Desperate for resources, the regime has engaged in practices causing severe environmental damage, including deforestation leading to deadly landslides and floods.

15. Weaponization of Religion:

• While outwardly suppressing religion, the state has co-opted religious language and imagery to deify the Kim family, creating a quasi-religious cult of personality that demands absolute devotion.

This level of brutality and oppression is almost unparalleled in modern history. The North Korean regime has created a dystopian reality that combines the worst aspects of Stalinist repression, Nazi racial ideology, and Orwellian thought control, all while maintaining a facade of normalcy to the outside world. The depth of human suffering inflicted by this system is nearly incomprehensible, with millions living in a state of constant terror, deprivation, and psychological manipulation.

[Nemra]

@Bobby_2021, what say you?

I asked Claude to give a more in-depth response, but it refused. ChatGPT didn't shy away.