Is There Power in Evil for Greater Good?

[Spiritual Warfare]

Sometimes I think evil is attractive. It’s necessary in this world or else we won’t be able to appreciate good. Can evil be used as an agent to do good things and protect the ones who are weak and innocent? Just a thought that ran through my mind. We try to destroy evil by punishing it. How fair is it for society to play God? Evil ones are generally strong, dominant, and aggressive. By gradually weeding them out, are we creating a society of cu*ks and puss**s (sorry for those words but couldn’t find a better alternative)?

I mean, even a criminal could be very intelligent and smart. And his potential gets lost when he is put to death. Of course, we end up saving many lives in exchange. But rehabilitation can be an alternative solution if found to be effective.

We say bullies are bad. What if you’re caught in a situation where you want to fight against an unjust system, but you feel too weak or passive to speak out? And that bully you hated so much comes around, has a change of heart, and decides to fight for you and protects you. Your mind then begins to look at the whole thing in a different way. I know it sounds odd, but why do we get stuck with the idea that an evil person never changes? They too have some potential that could be put to good use. There are certain qualities/traits that make such persons formidable. These traits are important in war, fights, combat, and protection. We’re complex creatures, and we’re a combination of both good and bad. I imagine the devil having a change of heart and going back and protecting the innocent instead of harming, especially when the devil is shown some love. Maybe I’m fantasizing strange things (aka Stockholm syndrome). But is it entirely impossible for evil to change? Is evil excessively used as a scapegoat by a society too hellbent on being righteous and sanctimonious? Is evil sensationalized and exaggerated to feed our morally superior egos? Or is our outrage for evil acts justified? Sometimes I even think that our strong vilification and resistance to evil actually causes people to find it even more appealing. It’s like you resist fear, and fear grows. So maybe when we resist evil too much, we allow those forces to grow.

Not sure. Maybe I’m being crazy here. But I felt like good and evil are two sides of the same coin, and there could be a possibility that the outrage we experience is a result of deep social conditioning. And if we weren’t conditioned that way, evil would have been diluted and never existed the way it does. Reformation would then be easier. But who knows… Food for thought.

Are we losing more through punishment? Is there a way to retain some of the good or transform evil into something protective, strong, and formidable, but not harmful?

[zazen]

This is the perfect video for you, namely because I've seen your other posts where you seem to have a negative bias towards religion, especially of Islam - yet, this video seems to answer your question pretty well.

Paraphrasing from the video:

You can repel greater evil with lesser evils. The goodness is in discerning and making the right choice. It doesn’t have to result in a utopian outcome of an absolute good, but these ideals of absolute good paralyze us in our actions. The practical application of morality is towards better outcomes, not perfect outcomes. Address reality realistically, not idealistically.  Move towards the should be, through means of the can be.

Edited October 17 by zazen

[Spiritual Warfare]

46 minutes ago, zazen said:

This is the perfect video for you, namely because I've seen your other posts where you seem to have a negative bias towards religion, especially of Islam - yet, this video seems to answer your question pretty well.

Paraphrasing from the video:

You can repel greater evil with lesser evils. The goodness is in discerning and making the right choice. It doesn’t have to result in a utopian outcome of an absolute good, but these ideals of absolute good paralyze us in our actions. The practical application of morality is towards better outcomes, not perfect outcomes. Address reality realistically, not idealistically.  Move towards the should be, through means of the can be.

If you have read my previous posts about religion, you know that there are no good reasons to follow any religious texts. There is nothing that can prove the claims made in these books, and therefore it is not appropriate to follow anything misleading. Obey or be punished is not intellectual morality.

Edited October 17 by Spiritual Warfare

[Spiritual Warfare]

@zazen These are merely 'feel good' statements and ego stroking videos. The truth is that what Islam teaches and commands Muslims to implement in their domestic, family and social lives matters little to many Muslims today. It's all lip service and this is the same across the globe, no different from the West. It would actually make a difference if Muslims practiced true Islam today instead of the shameless cherry picking they engage in based on what suits and benefits them personally rather than embracing and implementing Islamic values and principles as a whole in all areas of their lives. Without that 100% implementation, Muslims do not hold a higher moral ground and are just as guilty, if not more so, of being the hypocrites that they are often rightly accused of being.

[Rafael Thundercat]

5 hours ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

Sometimes I think evil is attractive. It’s necessary in this world or else we won’t be able to appreciate good. Can evil be used as an agent to do good things and protect the ones who are weak and innocent? Just a thought that ran through my mind. We try to destroy evil by punishing it. How fair is it for society to play God? Evil ones are generally strong, dominant, and aggressive. By gradually weeding them out, are we creating a society of cu*ks and puss**s (sorry for those words but couldn’t find a better alternative)?

I mean, even a criminal could be very intelligent and smart. And his potential gets lost when he is put to death. Of course, we end up saving many lives in exchange. But rehabilitation can be an alternative solution if found to be effective.

We say bullies are bad. What if you’re caught in a situation where you want to fight against an unjust system, but you feel too weak or passive to speak out? And that bully you hated so much comes around, has a change of heart, and decides to fight for you and protects you. Your mind then begins to look at the whole thing in a different way. I know it sounds odd, but why do we get stuck with the idea that an evil person never changes? They too have some potential that could be put to good use. There are certain qualities/traits that make such persons formidable. These traits are important in war, fights, combat, and protection. We’re complex creatures, and we’re a combination of both good and bad. I imagine the devil having a change of heart and going back and protecting the innocent instead of harming, especially when the devil is shown some love. Maybe I’m fantasizing strange things (aka Stockholm syndrome). But is it entirely impossible for evil to change? Is evil excessively used as a scapegoat by a society too hellbent on being righteous and sanctimonious? Is evil sensationalized and exaggerated to feed our morally superior egos? Or is our outrage for evil acts justified? Sometimes I even think that our strong vilification and resistance to evil actually causes people to find it even more appealing. It’s like you resist fear, and fear grows. So maybe when we resist evil too much, we allow those forces to grow.

Not sure. Maybe I’m being crazy here. But I felt like good and evil are two sides of the same coin, and there could be a possibility that the outrage we experience is a result of deep social conditioning. And if we weren’t conditioned that way, evil would have been diluted and never existed the way it does. Reformation would then be easier. But who knows… Food for thought.

Are we losing more through punishment? Is there a way to retain some of the good or transform evil into something protective, strong, and formidable, but not harmful?

Just Watch Game of Thrones. A lot examples of this Paradox there. 

[Xonas Pitfall]

Of course!  it all depends on how you define "evil."

1. Evil as Destruction:

Destruction is an essential component of the "greater good." For instance, when we destroy cancer cells, we commit an act deemed "evil" against those cells to benefit the entire body. The cancer cells have chosen to act independently, disregarding the well-being of the organism. In building animal shelters or hospitals, we might need to demolish old, abandoned houses, which could have beautiful murals or graffiti that someone invested time in creating. However, we do this for the betterment of the health of incoming patients or animals. When it comes to self-improvement, we often need to perform what feels like "evil," acting against our ingrained desires, and built-up habits. A personal trainer or mentor might be viewed as "evil" when pushing their clients to confront uncomfortable truths for their good.

2. Evil as Separation or Division:

When you choose to ghost, block, or ignore someone, you inflict emotional pain on them, even if that person wants to be in your life. Yet, if being around them deteriorates your mental state, why should you remain connected? Consider the mental energy they drain from you; that energy could be better spent on people or causes you genuinely care about. By isolating criminals in jails, we are doing something "evil" by stripping them of certain human rights. However, if left free, they could cause much more harm to society. Documentaries about countries without laws illustrate how unappealing that environment can be.

3. Evil as Ignorance or Delusion:

A significant amount of evil stems from pure delusion and denial. Our minds are adept at rationalizing our perspectives and justifying our survival instincts. This can lead people to adopt extreme views to protect their social belonging, even if those views harm others. Bullies, for example, might have experienced difficult childhoods, leading them to believe that if everyone is untrustworthy, they might as well be selfish. They justify their actions as "necessary evil" based on their understanding of reality.

4. Evil as Pure Malice:

This form of evil is often considered the worst, embodied by those who act purely out of malice. However, even this type of evil serves a purpose; it highlights gaps in our society. We could ask ourselves: Why are we creating these individuals and urges in others? Is it possible we are forcing people into these positions?

From a non-duality perspective, evil must exist. Evil can only manifest as the suffering of an innocent. It’s a duality; good and evil, a tale as old as time.

However, all dualities collapse in the Absolute. Evil only exists as long as something is attached to being one way or the other. The Absolute truth is that things are purely as they are—there is no binding to anything but the current state. Ultimately, nothing is bound to anything but the present moment. In this state of pure unconditional acceptance and presence, there is no way to be but what you are, there is no suffering, and thus, there is no Evil. To give an example, if someone throws a rock into the water or crushes it or turns it into a ring, the rock doesn’t care; it wouldn’t think, "Evil is being done to me!" It simply accepts whatever state it is in.

We, humans, aren’t like that; we have egos and survival mechanisms, and we need a specific set of conditions to live well—not just safely, but happily and meaningfully. We have many attachments and desires about how things should be in our universe. They dictate how we perceive good and evil. That’s fine; there’s nothing inherently wrong with it. It should simply be recognized and understood. The more we realize our selfish needs, the more we can create a better system for everyone to function well. As a result, certain human urges that might be "normal" or "in our nature" still need to be filtered and less accepted. Ideally, we don’t want a society filled with low-functioning, unhealthy individuals. If society can’t effectively provide for everyone, we don’t want people freely lying, stealing, cheating, manipulating, or murdering whenever they desire, as that creates a toxic environment where growth, love, and safety cannot thrive. Cleansing these traits and individuals would be a "necessary evil," but still highly preferable.

Evil can really be boiled down to attachment, wanting things to be one way and not any other. It’s about being unable to sacrifice parts of yourself to work with reality or the good. It involves fear and self-preservation, willingly denying the truth and the impact of your actions on reality and others, and filtering actuality for selfish gains.

In a world where we are all selfish agents, humans have an innate desire to survive—both physically and mentally, preserving our identity and ego (often even more than our primal survival urges). Thus, evil and corruption are bound to happen; in that sense, evil at times must be fought with a necessary evil. Hence, evil can sometimes appear attractive because having the courage to deny and resist for the greater good can be quite virtuous.

I think when people say, "Evil is attractive," they are referring to power, confidence, and the ability to create change and impact. A lot of impact, even if it’s destructive, can seem appealing, as it offers a sense of control. Charming leaders often exude this feeling, which is how many corrupt cults get perpetuated.

[Spiritual Warfare]

27 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Just Watch Game of Thrones. A lot examples of this Paradox there. 

Game of Thrones is a perfect example of what happens when no one works on their anger issues. 

[Spiritual Warfare]

6 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Of course!  it all depends on how you define "evil."

1. Evil as Destruction:

Destruction is an essential component of the "greater good." For instance, when we destroy cancer cells, we commit an act deemed "evil" against those cells to benefit the entire body. The cancer cells have chosen to act independently, disregarding the well-being of the organism. In building animal shelters or hospitals, we might need to demolish old, abandoned houses, which could have beautiful murals or graffiti that someone invested time in creating. However, we do this for the betterment of the health of incoming patients or animals. When it comes to self-improvement, we often need to perform what feels like "evil," acting against our ingrained desires, and built-up habits. A personal trainer or mentor might be viewed as "evil" when pushing their clients to confront uncomfortable truths for their good.

2. Evil as Separation or Division:

When you choose to ghost, block, or ignore someone, you inflict emotional pain on them, even if that person wants to be in your life. Yet, if being around them deteriorates your mental state, why should you remain connected? Consider the mental energy they drain from you; that energy could be better spent on people or causes you genuinely care about. By isolating criminals in jails, we are doing something "evil" by stripping them of certain human rights. However, if left free, they could cause much more harm to society. Documentaries about countries without laws illustrate how unappealing that environment can be.

3. Evil as Ignorance or Delusion:

A significant amount of evil stems from pure delusion and denial. Our minds are adept at rationalizing our perspectives and justifying our survival instincts. This can lead people to adopt extreme views to protect their social belonging, even if those views harm others. Bullies, for example, might have experienced difficult childhoods, leading them to believe that if everyone is untrustworthy, they might as well be selfish. They justify their actions as "necessary evil" based on their understanding of reality.

4. Evil as Pure Malice:

This form of evil is often considered the worst, embodied by those who act purely out of malice. However, even this type of evil serves a purpose; it highlights gaps in our society. We could ask ourselves: Why are we creating these individuals and urges in others? Is it possible we are forcing people into these positions?

From a non-duality perspective, evil must exist. Evil can only manifest as the suffering of an innocent. It’s a duality; good and evil, a tale as old as time.

However, all dualities collapse in the Absolute. Evil only exists as long as something is attached to being one way or the other. The Absolute truth is that things are purely as they are—there is no binding to anything but the current state. Ultimately, nothing is bound to anything but the present moment. In this state of pure unconditional acceptance and presence, there is no way to be but what you are, there is no suffering, and thus, there is no Evil. To give an example, if someone throws a rock into the water or crushes it or turns it into a ring, the rock doesn’t care; it wouldn’t think, "Evil is being done to me!" It simply accepts whatever state it is in.

We, humans, aren’t like that; we have egos and survival mechanisms, and we need a specific set of conditions to live well—not just safely, but happily and meaningfully. We have many attachments and desires about how things should be in our universe. They dictate how we perceive good and evil. That’s fine; there’s nothing inherently wrong with it. It should simply be recognized and understood. The more we realize our selfish needs, the more we can create a better system for everyone to function well. As a result, certain human urges that might be "normal" or "in our nature" still need to be filtered and less accepted. Ideally, we don’t want a society filled with low-functioning, unhealthy individuals. If society can’t effectively provide for everyone, we don’t want people freely lying, stealing, cheating, manipulating, or murdering whenever they desire, as that creates a toxic environment where growth, love, and safety cannot thrive. Cleansing these traits and individuals would be a "necessary evil," but still highly preferable.

Evil can really be boiled down to attachment, wanting things to be one way and not any other. It’s about being unable to sacrifice parts of yourself to work with reality or the good. It involves fear and self-preservation, willingly denying the truth and the impact of your actions on reality and others, and filtering actuality for selfish gains.

In a world where we are all selfish agents, humans have an innate desire to survive—both physically and mentally, preserving our identity and ego (often even more than our primal survival urges). Thus, evil and corruption are bound to happen; in that sense, evil at times must be fought with a necessary evil. Hence, evil can sometimes appear attractive because having the courage to deny and resist for the greater good can be quite virtuous.

I think when people say, "Evil is attractive," they are referring to power, confidence, and the ability to create change and impact. A lot of impact, even if it’s destructive, can seem appealing, as it offers a sense of control. Charming leaders often exude this feeling, which is how many corrupt cults get perpetuated.

Thank you for this summary!

[Xonas Pitfall]

5 hours ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

We say bullies are bad. What if you’re caught in a situation where you want to fight against an unjust system, but you feel too weak or passive to speak out? And that bully you hated so much comes around, has a change of heart, and decides to fight for you and protects you. Your mind then begins to look at the whole thing in a different way. I know it sounds odd, but why do we get stuck with the idea that an evil person never changes? They too have some potential that could be put to good use. There are certain qualities/traits that make such persons formidable. These traits are important in war, fights, combat, and protection. We’re complex creatures, and we’re a combination of both good and bad. I imagine the devil having a change of heart and going back and protecting the innocent instead of harming, especially when the devil is shown some love. Maybe I’m fantasizing strange things (aka Stockholm syndrome). But is it entirely impossible for evil to change? Is evil excessively used as a scapegoat by a society too hellbent on being righteous and sanctimonious? Is evil sensationalized and exaggerated to feed our morally superior egos? Or is our outrage for evil acts justified? Sometimes I even think that our strong vilification and resistance to evil actually causes people to find it even more appealing. It’s like you resist fear, and fear grows. So maybe when we resist evil too much, we allow those forces to grow.

Notice how all of these examples of evil can be reframed as "a force stronger than you, a capable, powerful force." A bully who once inflicted harm might now use that same strength to protect you, turning their power into something helpful and good. Similarly, war, combat, and protection, or even a powerful demon or devil, can be seen through this lens. 

Often, people associate "doing good" with a soft, nurturing, feminine energy, like a peaceful, hippie vibe. But in reality, doing good can also look harsh and brutal. Good can manifest in powerful, dominant, masculine ways, as well as in softer, more caring feminine forms.

I'd say "Evil" can definitely change, whether through life experiences, greater understanding, awareness, or love. Change can happen through both harsher and softer means.

• Someone who is arrogant and lost might need a harsh wake-up call—being thrown in prison, losing someone important, or having someone bluntly tell them they're selfish and cruel—before they start to realize the harm in their actions.
• Or, evil can be softened through gentler, loving approaches. You might give someone time to resist, rage, and be distrustful, yet keep offering them love until they finally let their guard down. It’s like how dog and cat trainers handle strays. At first, these animals may act aggressively, but with enough patience and love, they start to relax and transform into happy, affectionate creatures instead of defensive and hostile ones.

[Spiritual Warfare]

2 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Notice how all of these examples of evil can be reframed as "a force stronger than you, a capable, powerful force." A bully who once inflicted harm might now use that same strength to protect you, turning their power into something helpful and good. Similarly, war, combat, and protection, or even a powerful demon or devil, can be seen through this lens. 

Often, people associate "doing good" with a soft, nurturing, feminine energy, like a peaceful, hippie vibe. But in reality, doing good can also look harsh and brutal. Good can manifest in powerful, dominant, masculine ways, as well as in softer, more caring feminine forms.

I'd say "Evil" can definitely change, whether through life experiences, greater understanding, awareness, or love. Change can happen through both harsher and softer means.

• Someone who is arrogant and lost might need a harsh wake-up call—being thrown in prison, losing someone important, or having someone bluntly tell them they're selfish and cruel—before they start to realize the harm in their actions.
• Or, evil can be softened through gentler, loving approaches. You might give someone time to resist, rage, and be distrustful, yet keep offering them love until they finally let their guard down. It’s like how dog and cat trainers handle strays. At first, these animals may act aggressively, but with enough patience and love, they start to relax and transform into happy, affectionate creatures instead of defensive and hostile ones.

👏🌟

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Spiritual Warfare and I are spreading Devilish Good, Fierce Virtue, Savage Righteousness, Brutal Kindness, Formidable Integrity, Merciless Compassion, Dominating Justice, Unyielding Charity, Aggressive Grace, Unstoppable Altruism, Ruthless Empathy, Immovable Honor, Fearless Mercy, Commanding Nobility, Relentless Loyalty, Powerful Forgiveness over here... 💛😊

[Spiritual Warfare]

Just now, Xonas Pitfall said:

@Spiritual Warfare and I are spreading Devilish Good, Fierce Virtue, Savage Righteousness, Brutal Kindness, Formidable Integrity, Merciless Compassion, Dominating Justice, Unyielding Charity, Aggressive Grace, Unstoppable Altruism, Ruthless Empathy, Immovable Honor, Fearless Mercy, Commanding Nobility, Relentless Loyalty, Powerful Forgiveness over here... 💛😊

I really appreciate that😇😈

[Keryo Koffa]

There's no evil. There are traits you demonize. They evolved for a reason and have a role in nature.
Everyone's self-biased, though self varies. There's ego, growth, understanding, ignorance, etc.
There are useful traits, there are people who cause harm, there's suffering, but there ain't no evil.

[Lyubov]

If you want to live a lie feel free

im living in truth

its the only way when you realize just what living in falsehood does to your life  

[Spiritual Warfare]

8 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

There's no evil. There are traits you demonize. They evolved for a reason and have a role in nature.
Everyone's self-biased, though self varies. There's ego, growth, understanding, ignorance, etc.
There are useful traits, there are people who cause harm, there's suffering, but there ain't no evil.

Calm down, Leo Gura. I have seen evil in its purest form,evil is far from an illusion, my friend.

[Keryo Koffa]

7 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

Calm down, Leo Gura. I have seen evil in its purest form,evil is far from an illusion, my friend.

You're experiencing, perpetuating, and creating this "evil" on another layer's self-awareness.

[Spiritual Warfare]

1 minute ago, Keryo Koffa said:

You're experiencing, perpetuating, and creating this "evil" on another layer's self-awareness.

Nobody wants to be raped, therefore, it is evil.

[zazen]

5 hours ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

If you have read my previous posts about religion, you know that there are no good reasons to follow any religious texts. There is nothing that can prove the claims made in these books, and therefore it is not appropriate to follow anything misleading. Obey or be punished is not intellectual morality.

I read and watched a lot of Osho before and became very anti-religion myself. But then I started to look into things deeper and actually through learning about non-duality via Osho, Alan Watts etc it helped me realise the validity in religion. The issue I think everyone has when it comes to religion is in the literalism and absolutist attitude when approaching it. But that literalist and absolutist attitude can be applied to secular ideologies too. A cartoon villain version of Islam has been propped up via the petro dollar and arming of jihadis which means unfortunately a particular strand of Islam (Wahhabism) has been exported across the region. When we think of Islam thats the face of Islam we picture now, as if its a monolith.

The prophets were definitely onto something, they had a glimpse of the eternal. Religion was a attempt to organise around that glimpse, in a lot of cases completely missing it and suffocating it with dogma, and weaponising the nuggets of wisdom that resonated with people but which were then co-opted for other means. But to think we can entirely dismiss the prophets of the eternal and elevate the prophets of empiricism is faulty. As you say, theres nothing that can prove the claims made in those books - but how can you prove love, dignity, the feeling of honour? Thats what science and empiricism misses because it looks at the surface of life, the material, and misses the depth. The deepest truths of life can't be reduced to numbers in a spreadsheet to be proven.

As for other practices within religion, those aren't so much about spirituality and more so about the functioning of society that often get conflated with the spiritual. No ones supposed to be the best, but people try their best. 

Edited October 17 by zazen

[Keryo Koffa]

10 minutes ago, Spiritual Warfare said:

Nobody wants to be raped, therefore, it is evil.

Nobody wants to be killed brutally, now burn in hell you psychopath who stepped on an ant.

Edited October 17 by Keryo Koffa

[Spiritual Warfare]

10 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Nobody wants to be killed brutally, now burn in hell you psychopath who stepped on an ant.

Well, at least the ant won't need to worry about getting stepped on again😁

Edited October 17 by Spiritual Warfare