Leo's Teachings Sometimes Gets Me In Trouble

[Princess Arabia]

Not in a bad or serious way, but in conversations. Yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend about life in general and the topic turned into thoughts, which turned into good and bad, which turned into good and bad people, which was where the miscommunication started.

I mentioned that people are acting from good intentions (a video of Leo's; and I also recognize this myself to be the case), and that we all are inherently good. He then said to me, "oh yeah, what about Hitler, Putin, Genghis Khan and other famous dictators". I said they were bad people acting from good intentions. Then I attempted to explain how but was met with repeated resistance. "How can the murder of millions of people be classified as a good intention?" He asked. I tried to explain their motivations and to look what happened to Iraq when the US invaded; and the country fell apart. He then said he knew people that were in the Iraq war and continued to give surface level reasonings as to why and how these people were bad people and why the country fell apart.

I had to be continuously stating that I didn't condone the killing of these people nor am I saying they were good people; but there's an underlying element there as to why these people act the way they do and it's something they themselves aren't even aware of in respect to it coming from a good intention but merely from survival. 

He kept his argument going (respectfully) by stating how money, power and greed is the root of all this. I said to him his neighbor is probably greedy, loves power and money but would never be motivated to commit such heinous crimes; so, there must be another element there. He just couldn't understand what I was trying to say even when I said I would watch the video again so I could explain it better. I even offered to send him the video to watch for himself; but of course, who would believe a YT video with a bald-headed guy talking on a camera for 2hrs more than maybe say a serious documentary on CNN explaining this in detail. People are entrenched in paradigms and expect to get their information from a particular source that is more recognizable and has a more authoritative quality to it. I know, because I've also experienced this type of prejudice because I'm not a noted "professional".

Anyway, the video in question wasn't sent as I figured it wasn't asked for, nor was there any enthusiasm to see it. I quickly turned the conversation around and started talking about something else that was more on common ground. I don't go around discussing Leo's videos on these similar types of topics like wars and survival and self-deception and survival much because the average person will probably not understand it unless they've had previous exposure to the existential nature of reality and some background on the mind and how mental the Universe is. I try to keep the conversations normal, which I don't mind, since I'm always studying by myself these kinds of topics. It's just that sometimes a regular conversation can turn into these things unexpectedly, but it's very rarely ever received and sometimes trying to explain makes one seem to be condoning wrong doing.

Just thought i'd share. Thanks, Leo, for these types of videos because they make one understand better about human behaviour, even the people we come across that resist these explanations and to realize why even them cannot see pass their own paradigms and levels. It makes for less judgements and understandings on the person's part who is mature and wise enough to recognize where the ignorance stems.

[bambi]

This is an erroneous perspective, not everyone always acts from good intentions, this just isnt true. Malice exists, ill will exist, disdain, hatredness exist. Hitler had a ton of those to different degrees at different times.

Maybe Leo was trying to make that point that not all agendas come from the place of outright malice, there can be genuine concern for ones self, family, tribe, sect, nation or religion's percieved survival concerns, with a disproprtiante lack of concern for the percieved other group(s). So at its core its identity, tribalism and survival

I havent seen his video, but maybe he was trying to say everyone has their justificaitons and post-hoc rationalisations for why they behave in atrocious and destructive ways. This is true, even Hitler and the Nazis needed this, else you'd have an almost immediate pyschological break down leading to a deep self hatredness, possibly leading to suicide. So these are just mere psychological protection and justification mechanisms.

Otherwise there is just some linguistic semantical trick going on here

Edited October 13 by bambi

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, bambi said:

Maybe Leo was trying to make that point that not all agendas come from the place of outright malice, they can be genione concern for ones self, family, tribe, sect, nation or religion's percieved survival concerns, with a disproprtiante lack of concern for the percieved other group(s). So at its core its identity, tribalism and survival

This is pretty much the whole point here. The only difference I see here is you saying some and Leo saying all people.

I also mentioned survival in my post and what you're saying here also refers to the Iraq war.

[Princess Arabia]

This is the video mentioned in the post.

 

[bambi]

7 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

This is pretty much the whole point here. The only difference I see here is you saying some and Leo saying all people.

I also mentioned survival in my post and what you're saying here also refers to the Iraq war.

I would split out the agenda from the persons moment by moment intentions though. Sure most agendas are simply a reactive survival necassity. So in this case its bourne out of a common good intention: to survive

Its how its acted out though, there is deep ignorance in a lot of these cases, and one cannot divorce the good intention of protecitng ones survival from contamination with other intentions. 

Its possible to want to survive, and to protect your survival you do x. But how you do x is not pure and categorial to me, it can be contiminated with tons of other negative shit, including bad intentions.

Take Hamas, they want to protect palestinians from what they see to be as tyranny and genocide, so to them this is a pure intention. But there is no way there execution and implementation is not rife with tons of bad intentions, right? 

To me this seems reductive, and missing the complexity of how we enact our agendas into the world.

Edited October 13 by bambi

[Basman]

It might be hard to appreciate when you have been inundated with Leo's concepts for years but his ideas are actually quiet radical and challenging a lot of the time. Going straight to a philosophical conclusion like "everyone acts from good intentions" without building your case will necessarily lead to arguments because they are often upsetting. Like the idea that everyone acts from good intentions can come of as dismissive of legitimate bad experiences. You know that is not true, but you also listened to hours of content explaining why that is.

When you challenge a paradigm, it is better to frame it as a question instead of a definite statement.

For example: "don't you think that Hitler had good intentions relative to his people or even just himself? Like, how is it possible for someone start a world war without good intentions?"

Sometimes people will just feel upset at an idea as a knee jerk reaction no matter how well you explain yourself. They might soften their stance later once they get over it.

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, bambi said:

I would split out the agenda from the persons moment by moment intentions though. Sure most agendas are simply a reactive survival necassity. So in this case its bourne out of a common good intention: to survive

Its how its acted out though, there is deep ignorance in a lot of these cases, and one cannot divorce the good intention of protecitng ones survival from contamination with other intentions. 

Its possible to want to survive, and to protect your survival you do x. But how you do x is not pure and categorial to me, it can be contiminated with tons of other negative shit, including bad intentions.

Take Hamas, they want to protect palestinians from what they see to be as tyranny and genocide, so to them this is a pure intention. But there is no way there execution and implementation is not rife with tons of bad intentions, right? 

To me this seems reductive, and missing the complexity of how we enact our agendas into the world.

I understand what you're saying; but when you say "bad intention" I think that could be relative and depends on the outside perspective. How someone carries out an intention whether good or bad, to me, is irrelevant in this case as to the general subject of "good intention" being the primary factor and what is really the thing trying to be dissected. I don't think the results that stems from that "good intention" matters in the case of the phrase "everyone acts from good intentions".  I think you're looking at the results from these "good-intention acts" and forming your assessments from that....my opinion, of course.

I will watch the video again soon, to get a better grasp of this as, if I remember correctly, the way he explained it, I was in total agreement and understood what he was getting at from his pov.

[Princess Arabia]

12 minutes ago, Basman said:

It might be hard to appreciate when you have been inundated with Leo's concepts for years

Just to be clear. This is not about being inundated with Leo's concepts. This is about, as I stated in my post, me seeing for myself how this is the case. I don't just watch videos and believe in them just because......i also think for myself, use my observational skills, am curious by nature and psychology oriented. It's the reason why I enjoy those types of videos also. It's not to watch a gurus teachings and whatever they teach I adhere to, it's because, I myself am interested in those types of topics. I used my own discernment to see and understand most of what he was saying when I traced back the connecting dots and also what I observed about my own behaviors.

Edited October 13 by Princess Arabia

[bambi]

15 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I understand what you're saying; but when you say "bad intention" I think that could be relative and depends on the outside perspective. How someone carries out an intention whether good or bad, to me, is irrelevant in this case as to the general subject of "good intention" being the primary factor and what is really the thing trying to be dissected. I don't think the results that stems from that "good intention" matters in the case of the phrase "everyone acts from good intentions".  I think you're looking at the results from these "good-intention acts" and forming your assessments from that....my opinion, of course.

I will watch the video again soon, to get a better grasp of this as, if I remember correctly, the way he explained it, I was in total agreement and understood what he was getting at from his pov.

I already outlined this in previous posts.

Ultimately, at their core, people may have good intentions (to ensure their surival agenda(s)), but these are often overshadowed by limited perspectives, ignorance, or emotional pain. Human behavior is complex, and good intentions frequently mix with fear, anger, pain, insecurity, and other factors, which can lead to harmful or destructive actions. To say 'everyone always acts from good intentions' is overly simplistic and misses the nuanced reality.

A more accurate statement might be: 'Ultimately, people have good intentions deep down, but these intentions often become entangled with emotional pain, ignorance, or misguided beliefs, leading to bad intentions and harmful behavior

Edited October 13 by bambi

[Hojo]

Ask him if he thinks Hitler gassed the Jews just because he could or if his intentions were to exterminate a plague upon the Earth. Exterminating what you think is a plague is a good intention. When people are unloved their intentions get distorted, but they don't do things mostly with intentions of just being bad.Its mostly good intentions, no one is evil we are all permanently happy in Heaven right now, you cant be evil and in Heaven.

Hitler loved Germany he lived as Germany and saw his country getting fucked. He saw the Jews as people trying to rob him and murder Germany. Hitler took over Germany and used his powerful words to control Germany to do horrendous acts because his country was getting fucked over. Germany committed the acts Hitler just voiced Germans thought.

People are like neurons in the mind of the country. Hitler was the ego and he is very convincing. He was not stupid, and Germans were ready to act.

 

Edited October 13 by Hojo

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, Hojo said:

Ask him if he thinks Hitler gassed the Jews just because he could or if his intentions were to exterminate a plague upon the Earth. Exterminating what you think is a plague is a good intention. When people are unloved their intentions get distorted, but they don't do things mostly with intentions of just being bad.Its mostly good intentions, no one is evil we are all permanently happy in Heaven right now, you cant be evil and in Heaven.

Hitler loved Germany he lived as Germany and saw his country getting fucked. He saw the Jews as people trying to rob him and murder Germany. Hitler took over Germany and used his powerful words to control Germany to do horrendous acts because his country was getting fucked over. Germany committed the acts Hitler just voiced Germans thought.

People are like neurons in the mind of the country. Hitler was the ego and he is very convincing. He was not stupid, and Germans were ready to act.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Ulax]

 I suppose its important to define the 'good' in good intentions. I haven't watched that Leo video so not sure how he defined it.

[Clarence]

I don't remember this particular video, but it might be easier for people to understand that everyone acts out of love.

From my point of view, some people might actually love acting out of bad intentions, and even recognize it as so… hurting for the sake of hurting. As we see people torturing animals or humans just because they love doing that. They might have no other intention but doing harm for the sake of it or for the sake of expressing their bad intentions. Though, they still act out of love, even though it is extremely selfish and cruel, because it is something they love to do.

This is a very simplistic explanation. The understanding of Love is much much deeper than that, but I think it should be easier for people to acknowledge that everyone acts out of love, even if that love manifests through murder, war and torture.

Then, if you define that acting out of love is the same as acting out of good intentions, I think the message could come through. But I'm pretty sure certain individuals can act from bad intentions and admit it, so as said by Ulax, it really depends how you actually define ' good intentions'. To me, it makes more sense to talk about love rather than intentions alone, but they get closer to each other the more I think about it. People can say they act out of hate, but they're still acting out of love even if they don't know it.

Edited October 14 by Clarence

[Keryo Koffa]

@Hojo

@Clarence

[Breakingthewall]

13 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

The only difference I see here is you saying some and Leo saying all people.

The natives of North America were great torturers, I read a report from a missionary who was with the Angloquins if I remember correctly. It said that they brought the prisoner amidst great displays of joy from the entire tribe, first they tied him to a post and the women and children burned him with burning sticks for hours, they cut off his nose and ears amidst laughter and celebration. In the evening the adults took him to a tent and tortured him in the most horrible ways all night. It was necessary for him to arrive alive at sunrise. At sunrise, they inserted a burning stick into his anus and cut off his head. Were they all good, or bad in that tribe? What does it mean to be good? and bad? Where is the difference? 

[Ayham]

There are various levels to good intentions, while I agree everyone acts from good intentions, there are levels:

1. Acting with good intentions to yourself: because you are still selfish, you can't see beyond yourself, so in your worldview, good intentions take only you into account
2. Acting with good intentions towards people you care about: you are less selfish, you act with good intentions towards maybe your friends, family,  maybe your nation, your religion, etc.
3. Acting with good intentions towards everyone: which also has levels, depending on how selfless you are.

So someone causing a genocide or whatever, would be acting with good intentions towards themselves, or their group, because that's all they can see, and they believe they are the ultimate right.

We are redefining good in this context, it is a way to understand others without demonizing them.

Again, try to independently contemplate Leo's stuff before believing in them, I understand that sometimes we do believe in stuff without thinking them through, we all have this tendency, we must notice it and not act on it.

In conversation, engage with Hegelian Dialectic, try to come to a synthesis that integrates both opposing views, leading to a better understanding.

 

You got this! 

[enchanted]

It's lonely at the top.

[Leo Gura]

These teachings are like surfing a crocodile.

[Rigel]

What is it about this community that we are not revolted by these teachings? I struggle to understand why most people would get outraged by these ideas. Or not give a fuck. That’s also a common reaction. 
It’s close mindedness but why are people close minded? Do they not understand that you can hear & entertain a thought without accepting or rejecting it?

I have completely stopped mentioning Leo to anyone over time. It was never productive when I did in the past.

Edited October 14 by Rigel

[Miguel1]

I applaud ya'll for still trying to go deep and metaphysical with normies.

I've given up long ago. Even on this forum it often gets real bad real fast. Imagine making sense with normies 

I guess everyone has their own sources of joy.