Lost in hyperreality. Please change my mind

[Jayson G]

1 minute ago, bambi said:

LOL yes I agree. The only hope is there is nothing explcit in the charters that impedes progression away from evil. I mean what do you think about Google etc?

If Elon Musk de-friended those google founders because of their negligence of ethical AI, of all people Elon Musk, its safe to say Google isn't the most ethical lol

4 minutes ago, bambi said:

I think at high levels of conciousness you simply only want the best for people you arent looking to acquire anything from them or to change them in anyway, capitalism at its core is about extraction of productivty and value, in a hyper competitive environment, so to me thats why its antithetical for me

I think this could be migitate slightly with following principles:

The companies goals should be to help humanity at some level, not merely profit

Life both humans and animals should be the highest values -> staff, products, customers etc should be prioritized above profit

Equalising of monetary reward, everyones time and life is equal, no one should be paid more then anyone else, everyone is simply serving their role

Strict checks and adherence to supply chain quality, and suppliers. Ethical and humane standards across the whole chain

Humane treatment of staff, how people are hired, trained, and fired should all be done humanely

The company and the executive team exist to serve the staff customers and wider humanity, rahter then the other way round

These are just off the top of my head

@bambi These are some solid points. 

The problem with business and capitalism is that the bigger you are, even as a small company, the more people you hurt (I think). Even in the companies I hired, people aren't off starting their businesses and pursuing their deepest passions, which bothers me. But at the same time, I can't have the impact that I want to have unless I hire some people in that way. I think at the end of the day, people do get hurt in any company you build, no matter how hard you will try to minimize the damage. 

But what is comforting is how many people I can impact with the companies, and in turn give back to employees money-wise. 

Like you said, it's looking at all the details of the systems and carefully iterating each aspect for higher consciousness, higher quality ethics, etc.

[bambi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They are getting more and more evil every year as they run out of ideas but the survival pressure remains endless.

Can you give concrete examples? The founders larry and sergey to me seem motivated by technological advancement for humanity, and they both are far removed from personal fincial survival worries, and theyre also not in the limelight 

Google did alot to help progress working conditions and modern working culture in a good way.

Elon musk also sold all his homes recently, and doesnt seemed so concerned about survival, Tesla/Space x often times came close to the brink of death, he seems to have higher values then sole survival concern.

He is also pushing the rate of innovaiton and changing patent culture. He is basically saying patents shouldnt exist, and only those that truly innovate at a high rate should survive, and if Tesla/Space X cant do this, they shouldnt exist

Whats your perspective here

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura, what advice would you give to employees of public companies?

Also, I don't think not surviving is an option to continue living.

Edited October 15 by Nemra

[Jayson G]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, that's the best way to go about it.

Endless survival pressure.

@Leo Gura That's good to hear. 

It's interesting how you are deep into consciousness and still support the notion of creating high conscious businesses, and hiring people. I don't see much commentary from spiritual teachers on what is conscious vs. unconscious in the world of business. 

The problems with pursuing a business at all, whether aiming for positive contribution or not, whether its an impactful business or not, is that some damage gets done to people's survival, I think, regardless of the business. 

It requires carefully contemplation, thinking, analyzing, systemic thinking to see whether you are doing really is right or wrong. 

[bambi]

4 minutes ago, Jayson G said:

If Elon Musk de-friended those google founders because of their negligence of ethical AI, of all people Elon Musk, its safe to say Google isn't the most ethical lol

@bambi These are some solid points. 

The problem with business and capitalism is that the bigger you are, even as a small company, the more people you hurt (I think). Even in the companies I hired, people aren't off starting their businesses and pursuing their deepest passions, which bothers me. But at the same time, I can't have the impact that I want to have unless I hire some people in that way. I think at the end of the day, people do get hurt in any company you build, no matter how hard you will try to minimize the damage. 

But what is comforting is how many people I can impact with the companies, and in turn give back to employees money-wise. 

Like you said, it's looking at all the details of the systems and carefully iterating each aspect for higher consciousness, higher quality ethics, etc.

Hmm actually thats open AI, his concerns with Google are due to his ex-freindship with Larry. Larry called Elon as speciest for only caring about human conciousness, Larry preferred a more holistic view. Neither of these guys are inherently unethical, they both seem genuinely concerned about human and concious devleopment from thier own POV

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, bambi said:

Can you give concrete examples? The founders larry and sergey to me seem motivated by technological advancement for humanity, and they both are far removed from personal fincial survival worries, and theyre also not in the limelight 

Google did alot to help progress working conditions and modern working culture in a good way.

Google does lot of evil monopolistic stuff.

What the founders do it irrelevant. It is a monster beyond their control.

Quote

Elon musk also sold all his homes recently

Musk is funding Trump. Fuck him and all this techno bullshit.

Edited October 15 by Leo Gura

[Jayson G]

Just now, bambi said:

Hmm actually thats open AI, his concerns with Google are due to his ex-freindship with Larry. Larry called Elon as speciest for only caring about human conciousness, Larry preferred a more holistic view. Neither of these guys are inherently unethical, they both seem genuinely concerned about human and concious devleopment from thier own POV

@bambi I don't deny necessarily that those google guys care about the advancement of humanity, but from my research and understanding, in the pursuit of that advancement, they are neglecting the dangers of AI as well. 

I don't know the answers to these questions, but here are some things to think about: Is Google involved in the development of weapons? And say there are, is that a good thing or bad thing? (I recall some reports saying google is involved in weapons, not sure.) Also, Eric Schmidt, ex google CEO seems involved in helping Israel (I recall he said that, again not sure). Is the very nature of being this competitive in the AI space, without knowing what it is we are creating a good idea? How solid is google's ethical AI team? (Ethical AI doesn't seem to be a priority in any of these top companies, especially Microsoft, who I think fired many of their ethical AI team)

[bambi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Google does lot of evil monopolistic stuff.

What the founders do it irrelevant. It is a monster beyond their control.

Musk is funding Trump. Fuck him.

How are you defining evil? 

What you say its a monster, what does a non-monster verison look like? 

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Jayson G said:

@bambi I don't deny necessarily that those google guys care about the advancement of humanity, but from my research and understanding, in the pursuit of that advancement, they are neglecting the dangers of AI as well. 

I don't know the answers to these questions, but here are some things to think about: Is Google involved in the development of weapons? And say there are, is that a good thing or bad thing? (I recall some reports saying google is involved in weapons, not sure.) Also, Eric Schmidt, ex google CEO seems involved in helping Israel (I recall he said that, again not sure). Is the very nature of being this competitive in the AI space, without knowing what it is we are creating a good idea? How solid is google's ethical AI team? (Ethical AI doesn't seem to be a priority in any of these top companies, especially Microsoft, who I think fired many of their ethical AI team)

I mean ther problem here is there are no obejctively defined criteria of risk thresholds, and we all have different ones. Most of these conversaitons are people just projecting their own values and perspectives onto other people. It's not a true marker of malintent for me

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

How are you defining evil? 

What you say its a monster, what does a non-monster verison look like? 

I've said enough. You figure out the rest.

[Jayson G]

Just now, bambi said:

I mean ther problem here is there are no obejctively defined criteria of risk thresholds, and we all have different ones. Most of these conversaitons are people just projecting their own values and perspectives onto other people. It's not a true marker of malintent for me

@bambi Its not that they are a maker of malicious software, but there is clearly a lack of care, due diligence, ethical analysis, etc. in the developing of these AI systems. They are driven primarily by profit and competition, not consciousness. Even you said earlier that its important for a company to prioritize consciousness over competition. Do you think Google is prioritizing competition or consciousness? I think you already know the answer to that lol

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Jayson G said:

@bambi Its not that they are a maker of malicious software, but there is clearly a lack of care, due diligence, ethical analysis, etc. in the developing of these AI systems. They are driven primarily by profit and competition, not consciousness. Even you said earlier that its important for a company to prioritize consciousness over competition. Do you think Google is prioritizing competition or consciousness? I think you already know the answer to that lol

I am probably less risk averse then you though. And maybe more naively optimistic

I think its a mixture of multiple factors, passionate about technology and AI is exciting and emergent, whilst trying to monetize it. 

I dont see Google et al like I do Aramco or BP Shell for example, 

All the modern tech companies have been a God-send for commerce and working culture in my view

[Nivsch]

42 minutes ago, Jayson G said:

The problem with business and capitalism is that the bigger you are, even as a small company, the more people you hurt (I think)

The bigger you are, the more you will see people from a higher altitude and the smaller and less important they will seem to you. This corrupts the way you see others and the way you see yourself in relation to them.

Maybe this implies that we need to divide countries to sub areas with sub governments and rule systems. A thought that came to my mind just now.

Edited October 15 by Nivsch

[bambi]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The bigger you are, the more you will see people from a higher altitude and the smaller and less important they will seem to you. This corrupts the way you see others and the way you will see yourself in relation to them.

Maybe this implies that we need to divide countries to sub areas with sub governments and rule systems. A thought that came to my mind just now.

Im not convinced at all by this causality you posit

[Lyubov]

guys remember to leave a little room mentally into what views you are sharing. I do agree with most of you that humanity does not live with integrity. Many people do not and commerce and capitalism are filled with dishonesty and a lack of integrity. But that doesn’t mean we as spiritual beings have to. We are lucky in the sense that we are on the spiritual path and I can tell you now when you align your energies and mind with what’s true, resolve any beliefs or mental issues, and then lastly align your action with integrity, survival becomes less painful and you gain the ability to live in Wu Wei and harness the law of attraction. So just because some people living dishonestly and exploiting people for money does not mean we have to in order to live up to our highest and true potential and transcend survival. You or I are not responsible for the collective which is just going as it go, no one is in control of anything in this sense, it’s just unfolding. Focus on you and focus on what you choose to believe and focus on how hard or easy you are making life for yourself. Just because you see people disconnecting form truth doesn’t mean you have to. Stay committed and engaged and responsible and connected to spirit, you will always have peace of mind and see beauty and value even in all the challenges humanity faces. 

Edited October 16 by Lyubov

[Lyubov]

Remember to work on your belief system. Your day to day wellbeing should be your top priority but you should also have the wisdom to admit you don’t really know anything even after awakening, and to get straight with what is unfolding within you. If you have painful emotions then you need to actively resolve what issues you are choosing to create, but then further more be responsible and take appropriate action over what you believe is right and true and in alignment with the intentions you set. This is how to you escape society and return to nature. Do you want to experience society or nature? You don’t have to cut yourself off from society nor not take part in it in order to escape it. Return to nature, the flow. This will resolve your inner doubt and return self esteem in yourself and your faculties. Integrate the lower and allow it to play its role with the higher guiding, both create a balance to live life beautifully. 

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Leo Gura

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The most important insight I had about that, is that when you run a public company you are effectively taking on the endless survival attachment. You're not just attached to the survival of all your employees, but all the stockholders. This effectively makes it impossible to ever break free from survival because you have infinite mouths to feed endlessly.

In a small private company you can transcend survival by earning enough to feed a small number of mouths. But with a public company this is impossible because all your investors demand endless increasing growth. Which is equivalent to endless pressure to do evil. No amount of evil is ever enough in such a system.

So the #1 thing you must do to avoid evil is not make your business publicly traded.

I realized I m the only one who see why Korea and Japan will be forced to take immigrations hard or die. 

People might think they can choose to have immigration or not, that's being completely disconnected from our 'economic reality'

But when the institution will decline and even before that when investors will remove their cards from their companies because they'll fear that growth will not happen cause of birthrate it will be harshly painful.

The yen already crash like a crypto scam. And things like that will become the norms. Only america and Europe can rejoice in 'stability' but that's the exception and soon will not be the norm. 

And they can try all they want to increase it. Japan and Korea are more around 50-60h a week, Korea even more. And so birthrate can't happen when you basically a slave. They copied western style and growth, I don't see how they can sustain without picking 3rd world new slaves into the ponzi.

 

Curious to see how politic will drastically shift there. 

Cause if they don't they'll obviously become 'poor'.

 

Edited October 16 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Alex4]

9 hours ago, Jayson G said:

@Leo Gura How about a company of 10 people, with an owner focused on contributing to the world? I have a few companies where I hired people, pay them well, treat them nicely, and want to transform psychology, healthcare, etc. with AI solutions, and an app I'm developing with various mind tools. My highest priority is the betterment of mankind while also following my passions and curiosity and not creating surface-level solutions, without going too much into the details of that. 

I guess I'm asking what makes a company corrupt and delusional exactly?

That's my life purpose, but I don't know yet how to materialize it. My area of expertise is logistics and international trade, which I believe is difficult to venture into without exploiting employees since the margins are minimal. Plus I don't want to risk my life savings.

[gettoefl]

16 hours ago, Jayson G said:

@Leo Gura How about a company of 10 people, with an owner focused on contributing to the world? I have a few companies where I hired people, pay them well, treat them nicely, and want to transform psychology, healthcare, etc. with AI solutions, and an app I'm developing with various mind tools. My highest priority is the betterment of mankind while also following my passions and curiosity and not creating surface-level solutions, without going too much into the details of that. 

I guess I'm asking what makes a company corrupt and delusional exactly?

Making the cleaner and the ceo have an unequal-equity-share from day 1

Edited October 16 by gettoefl

[bambi]

Yes thats there are two core issues for me in capitalism:

1. Remuneration and pay. At its core if we all put equal effort and time and care, shouldnt we all recieve the same remuneration. Everything else is bias. This would be the most unbiased view, but it wouldnt incentivize progression or growth. It would be intersting to hear peoples perspectives on how you can be high concious while optimising for innovation and growth, or are they opposed at certain levels?

2. Authority and decision making, how is this done?

Its not an easy answer for me, having democratic decision making for a company on all decisions would lead to 0 progress or marginal progress and the comapny would probably die. Meritocratic can be done but would need to be weighted, Technocratic with meritocratic is the best way imo. technomeritocracy,