Alcoholics Anonymous spirituality

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, trenton said:

They say that God cannot be intellectualized

The human intellect can understand everything. Can't encompass, but can understand. It just need to be unblocked. The point is that intellect is a mean not an end. Intellectual understanding makes possible that the you open to yourself easily. And blockage in your mind prevent that

Edited October 13 by Breakingthewall

[trenton]

While in treatment I have also been going to church. I looked for any clues about the nature of God but it wasn't helpful. I feel empty and depressed when going to church because I don't believe in the Bible. I still participate however I can.

It is about praising Jesus as God. One of my therapist had me pray to Jesus because she didn't know how else to help me. So far I haven't found a therapist who accounted for how I conceive of God. I end up lumped together with Christians.

I still struggle with things like hope, joy, purpose, and goodness. I don't know how helpful an existential therapist would be. I still think psychedelics are helpful for understanding God but I will have to move out and travel to use that tool. This is considered blasphemy in meetings like AA. Everybody thinks I'm nuts even though they admit psychedelics can lead to spiritual awakening.

[gettoefl]

12 minutes ago, trenton said:

While in treatment I have also been going to church. I looked for any clues about the nature of God but it wasn't helpful. I feel empty and depressed when going to church because I don't believe in the Bible. I still participate however I can.

It is about praising Jesus as God. One of my therapist had me pray to Jesus because she didn't know how else to help me. So far I haven't found a therapist who accounted for how I conceive of God. I end up lumped together with Christians.

I still struggle with things like hope, joy, purpose, and goodness. I don't know how helpful an existential therapist would be. I still think psychedelics are helpful for understanding God but I will have to move out and travel to use that tool. This is considered blasphemy in meetings like AA. Everybody thinks I'm nuts even though they admit psychedelics can lead to spiritual awakening.

ACIM modernises the Jesus message and makes it relevant for the 21st century

It includes a thousand page text, a 365 lesson workbook and a manual for teacher (and everyone is a teacher in ACIM)

All free, all online, all truth

Absolutely game-changing I say

Plus of course a decent sub of like minded pilgrims for any questions

https://www.reddit.com/r/ACIM/

[Princess Arabia]

10 hours ago, Davino said:

The biggest problem with alcoholics is that they deny having a problem with alcohol. I only drink casually they say. Therefore, admitting to themselves they are alcoholics allows them to recognise they have an addiction problem that needs deliberate action to be solved. Furthermore, it prevents future relapsing as they are aware oh it's not a temporary thing, I cannot drink again as I'm an alcoholic (it has been proven that ex-alcoholics very rarely find a healthy use after their condition but end up relapsing into heavy use and eventual death).

So there you have it, hundreds of psychologists and clinical studies just casually dismissed by your comment.

You really underestimate the depth of everything.

I didn't say they shouldn't admit they are alcoholics. Knowing you are an alcoholic and trying to change by identifying as something else is the way to go if you understand the power of the mind. Every alcoholic isn't the same and are at different levels in their state of consciousness. I've known a few and, like I said, I've personally dated one, so what you've explained doesn't apply to all. What applies to all, however, is the Universal mind and how it works on a general level even though it still depends on how it's being used and projected outward from each individual perspectives and how they see themselves and the world.

Main thing here is accepting, identifying and being aware of the problem, which most already internally do or they wouldn't voluntarily be there but change is more powerful by identifying with something else. The same way how to change a habit requires another habit in it's place because of how the brain works. If one keeps saying IAM an alcoholic then they are maintaining and sustaining that living entity to always influence their train of thought and even if they never drink again, they will usually only replace it with something on a similiar frequency that caused the dependency on alcohol and why it was abused. One thing I've noticed is that most will get addicted to coffee drinking because of the "sipping" motion and that sipping motion is the same motion that alcoholics are accustomed to. 

Edited October 13 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

You really underestimate the depth of everything.

IMO, this sentence doesn't apply to me because, if it's one thing I'm usually being accused of is diving too deep about things and sometimes, depending on who I'm relating to, getting told to try to meet people where they're at to the point where I'm kind of having trouble just seeing things on a surface level. I even find myself making excuses for it to the point where I have to tell myself it isn't necessary to think that deep or outside the box as it's not necessary in all cases, especially when speaking about practical things. That's how I see myself, and I'm not denying that you see it differently because, in the end, it's just a matter of opinion.

[Princess Arabia]

11 hours ago, Davino said:

@Javfly33 @Princess Arabia I'm curious to know how much reading and experience you have in the field of drug addiction. Or you are just guessing? 

There's very very serious research in all these fields. Do you really think nobody has already raised those questions fifty years ago? Lmao

If so, try to design a rehab center with your cute ideas and let's compare them with the already existing methods.

I'm not going to say I've had any extensive formal research on the topic, nor am I claiming my opinions to be correct or to be the case. I've stated certain facts in my comments but also opinions. We don't need to itemize every comment or categorize everyone of them in the "opinion" level because as fairly intelligent people here we should be able to spot when someone is giving their opinion on something without them having to state it as such.

That being said. I myself have been to AA meetings and did so for 16weeks because of a first time offense if a dui from drinking and pulling over to get some rest on the highway. I was ordered by the courts to attend that meeting for 16weeks as restitution and punishment. This was about 10yrs ago. I am not an alcoholic and would freely say so if I was. Secondly, I have been around drug addicts personally, and have had friends who've used drugs and I live in a city where there are quite a few and are dealing with a drug and addiction crises. I personally had to call 911 because someone was overdosing on the city streets.

I'm not saying any of this are requisites, but at least I'm not just talking completely out my ass.

[Breakingthewall]

The root of addiction is lack. Feeling that you are incomplete, this unbalances you. There are levels, at a high level it is unbearable, so the person have the inevitable compulsion to try to fill that void. It could be with alcohol, heroin, sex or torturing children.

Drugs are a wild card that is really practical, without them people could lead to, let's say, horrible behaviors. Healing the feeling of lack is something extremely difficult, you have to go to the root, to the early family relationships, to the primordial attachment and fear and look them in the face. then, the feeling of lack disappears, but this is not a work suitable for all audiences, many will need a patch, and AA is one

Edited October 13 by Breakingthewall

[bambi]

21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The root of addiction is lack. Feeling that you are incomplete, this unbalances you. There are levels, at a high level it is unbearable, so the person have the inevitable compulsion to try to fill that void. It could be with alcohol, heroin, sex or torturing children.

Drugs are a wild card that is really practical, without them people could lead to, let's say, horrible behaviors. Healing the feeling of lack is something extremely difficult, you have to go to the root, to the early family relationships, to the primordial attachment and fear and look them in the face. then, the feeling of lack disappears, but this is not a work suitable for all audiences, many will need a patch, and AA is one

This is an incomplete view. The root of most addiction is pain. Its just a stategy to deal with pain/discomfort, that only excarbates the pain in the medium and long term

Yes their might be some element of lack or filling a void in the beginning especially, but theres a ton of pain, its pain medication basically. But in this case of addiction the medecine makes the pain worse

The issue is, for serious addicts, the sheer amount of pain one has to face to get to homeostasis can be overwhelming. Can be 2-3-4 years in some cases of abstinence before they feel anywhere near normal. Thats a long time to be in a near constant state of pain and discomfort.

Thats why support groups like AA are imperative in the first few years of recovery. Most people I know say 'My name is x, Im a recovering y', or at least 50%. I think this identity linguistic focus is a red herring in a lot of cases

I agree that for long termers, who have been sober and thriving for 2-3-4 years and more, additional healing modalities would be good, and shifting away from the identification as an addict. The problem here is this is peoples lives at stake, and the severity of a relapse or return to addiction far outweighs any percieved benefit of non-identificaiton. Until we have guarunteed transitions and have the science of healing down and replicable, this is the best we have got.

I notice most AA etc dont really do serious meditation, so this could be a core transitional modality, but lets face it most people cba mediating, even on this forum

[Princess Arabia]

40 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The root of addiction is lack. Feeling that you are incomplete, this unbalances you.

Which is most of society, hence my comment about how most of us are addicted to something, it's just that alcohol and drugs are more noticeable. The ones, to me that are the least noticeable are emotions and thoughts. People can become addicted to certain emotions and thoughts. This is why, with emotions, self-sabotage is a thing as they act in ways for them to sustain their addiction to feeling sad, angry or miserable because of not feeling good enough and also feeling guilty if they feel happy or joyful. In respect to thoughts, and not saying this is the case for everyone and I say this with caution, suicidal thoughts can also become addictive and that's why people can have them for years without doing the act be cause it's just the thought they are addicted to and has to do with the body/mind connection.

[Javfly33]

57 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

. Healing the feeling of lack is something extremely difficult, you have to go to the root, to the early family relationships, to the primordial attachment and fear and look them in the face. then, the feeling of lack disappears, but this is not a work suitable for all audiences, many will need a patch, and AA is one

You cant heal it because the feeling of lack is based on the identity structure, which is based of the dualities of the physical existence.

So there is an issue, that which is Unlimited does not like boundaries, but is trying to seek the Unlimited with the limited structure, this Will never work.

I see Only one solution, Accept that the Only way is within, trascendence of the structure, because the other path never has worked and probably never Will.

 

[Joshe]

To say "I am an addict", implies there is work to be done and the purpose of hammering this into your skull daily is not to foster weakness, but to acknowledge the weakness inside you and to make you 24/7 vigilant, which is necessary when you're attempting to quit a substance you're extremely addicted to. 

Higher conscious people can solve their addictions on their own but the average person cannot do that. They often require hitting rock bottom and society or their family forcing them into a program.

AA mostly serves to bring the addict's energy up to a place of courage and willingness so they can choose to quit. The details of how that happens are not important because without them choosing to quit, they'll soon end up extremely diseased or dead.

AA provides a sense of comradery. When you're depressed and apathetic, which most alcoholics are, it's uplifting to be around others who sympathize with you, don't judge you for your failure, and to know others have been there before. This social element provides a great energetic boost that replenishes their self-esteem and self-efficacy, which is required for them to choose to increase awareness and to engage in strategies that will protect them from relapse.

I had an alcoholic gf once. It was rough af. I'm good with strategy but there was absolutely nothing I could do. She wasn't interested in my solutions. All she ever said was "you don't know what it's like". No amount of wisdom ever penetrated until she had the social element of AA. 

 

Edited October 13 by Joshe

[bambi]

2 minutes ago, Joshe said:

To say "I am an addict", implies there is work to do be done and the purpose of hammering this into your skull daily is not to foster weakness, but to acknowledge the weakness inside you and to make you 24/7 vigilant, which is necessary when you're attempting to quit a substance you're extremely addicted to. 

Higher conscious people can solve their addictions on their own but the average person cannot do that. They often require hitting rock bottom and society or their family forcing them into a program.

AA mostly serves to bring the addict's energy up to a place of courage and willingness so they can choose to quit. The details of how that happens are not important because without them choosing to quit, they'll soon end up extremely diseased or dead.

AA provides a sense of comradery. When you're depressed and apathetic, which most alcoholics are, it's uplifting to be around others who sympathize with you, don't judge you for your failure, and to know others have been there before. This social element provides a great energetic boost that replenishes their self-esteem and self-efficacy, which is required for them to choose to increase awareness and to engage in strategies that will protect them from relapse.

I had an alcoholic gf once. It was rough af. I'm good with strategy but there was absolutely nothing I could do. She wasn't interested in my solutions. All she ever said was "you don't know what it's like". No amount of wisdom ever penetrated until she had the social element of AA. 

 

Good post, very accurate, and appreciate the hints of hawkins

[Joshe]

15 minutes ago, bambi said:

Good post, very accurate, and appreciate the hints of hawkins

haha, good catch! Yes, I've learned much from Hawkins. 

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

The ones, to me that are the least noticeable are emotions and thoughts

Yes, and projection to the future, the past, watching movies , sadness, etc. I think that there are levels, drug addiction is a high level of lack, but 100% of people have some level of lack, seems that that's the human condition , what make us move

8 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

see Only one solution, Accept that the Only way is within, trascendence of the structure, because the other path never has worked and probably never Will.

Yes, the only way is that, in some level, because always is going to be structure imo. You could have moments of let's say enlightenment, but then the structure comes back and with it the lack, but a bearable lack, even motivating lack. It's not the same being an alcoholic than projecting a business for example. At the end without lack there is not activity, or not a lot. A real mystic is quite passive and contemplative. Very happy maybe, but a bit of suffering isn't so bad imo, what horrible is when you are basically lack and have not a second of rest. 

9 hours ago, bambi said:

This is an incomplete view. The root of most addiction is pain

I think that the pain is lack. Seems that the lack is an evolutive mechanism to survival. Crocodiles haven't lack except when they are hungry, then there are relaxed in the river for 200 million of years, in a state much more perfect than Buddha. Humans live in perpetual imbalance, then move forward. The problem is when that imbalance is too much, then it's unbearable. Anyway, most of humans live in unhappiness, that's the human nature and the engine of the human evolution 

Edited October 14 by Breakingthewall

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

You cant heal it because the feeling of lack is based on the identity structure, which is based of the dualities of the physical existence.

Not sure if I would put it in these exact words, but the essence of what you're saying is what's the case. I would say the "I" thought/energy comes with it a feeling of lack - automatically. It cannot help but to feel lack because it's the energy that thinks it's separate. How can something that is a part of the whole but thinks it's separate not feel lack. It's impossible not to. There's no healing there because it's in it's nature to feel lack, incomplete and unfulfilled. It cannot be any other way. This is at the core of humanity's problems and why there are so many problems both individually and collectively. It is very painful, tiring and exhausting to be a human because it is operating from the feeling of separation when there is none. 

This is why if one wants to keep the human identity it is still important to realize what you truly are at the core and think and act from that place because that's how one can truly enjoy the human experience and integrate the two. Feelings of joy, happiness, bliss etc will be automatic because there will be no feelings of lack and separation which is where all our problems lie and one won't find the need to chase happiness.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

This is at the core of humanity's problems and why there are so many problems both individually and collectively. It is very painful, tiring and exhausting to be a human because it is operating from the feeling of separation when there is none. 

I think that is the reason of the success of the human kind as specie. It's a shit for the individual, no living being suffer as a human, but no specie evolve as human kind. We are mere supports of the collective ego, then our suffering is the energy that feeds and make advance that living being. It's like another step in the life, an alive entity that is free of the matter and evolve above the gene at accelerated speed. 

[Princess Arabia]

20 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I think that is the reason of the success of the human kind as specie. It's a shit for the individual, no living being suffer as a human, but no specie evolve as human kind. We are mere supports of the collective ego, then our suffering is the energy that feeds and make advance that living being. It's like another step in the life, an alive entity that is free of the matter and evolve above the gene at accelerated speed. 

You're just used to seeing hardships in life and thinking that's how life's supposed to be. I'm not speaking about human's drive or success rate or what motivates them. We are creative beings by nature and the same way that survival is a motivational thing to get people to move their ass to support themselves, being creative can also be motivational to get things done. Suffering also drives people to suicide, depression and lethargy. 

Most people after a certain age get sick, why you think that is. Half the United States are on medication and most are obese not to mention the ones in mental institutions and the ones on drugs. These conditions are in massive quantities, so I'm not just referring to a few. Can't be productive while mentally challenged and it's tough when you're physically ill. Suffering is not what motivates people, in fact it's the opposite. It might motivate them to want to change their lives but so does happiness, having lots of energy, will and a healthy drive to do so. It's easier and more pleasing to the body and psyche to do it from the latter while getting the same results. 

Edited October 14 by Princess Arabia

[Javfly33]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

Yes, the only way is that, in some level, because always is going to be structure imo. You could have moments of let's say enlightenment, but then the structure comes back and with it the lack, but a bearable lack, even motivating lack. It's not the same being an alcoholic than projecting a business for example. At the end without lack there is not activity, or not a lot. A real mystic is quite passive and contemplative. Very happy maybe, but a bit of suffering isn't so bad imo, what horrible is when you are basically lack and have not a second of rest. 

Imo the structure comes back because real distance towards the structure hasn´t happenet yet. The superglue hasn´t come off completely yet.

Once you can carry the structure like a suitcase there is no issue, but if for 10 minutes you walk with a suitcase in your heads, then for 3 minutes you put it back to the floor and carry, then again 5 minutes again you put it in your head...etc. Of course walking is a mess.

But Of course the less heavy the suitcase is, the less motivation one will have to realize carrying a suitcase in your head sucks.

Quote

It's not the same being an alcoholic than projecting a business for example. At the end without lack there is not activity, or not a lot. A real mystic is quite passive and contemplative. Very happy maybe, but a bit of suffering isn't so bad imo, what horrible is when you are basically lack and have not a second of rest. 

Yeap thats true

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

You're just used to seeing hardships in life and thinking that's how life's supposed to be. I'm not speaking about human's drive or success rate or what motivates them. We are creative beings by nature and the same way that survival is a motivational thing

Life itself is creative, it's a essential quality of life. but it seems that the creative impulse of life is driven by threat and difficulty.

A classic example is the dodo bird of Mauritius. He arrived there flying from Africa or somewhere and settled on those islands where there was no threat and plenty of food. In a few thousand years it lost the ability to fly. When the islands were colonized, it became extinct in a short time, since it was very easy to hunt it. So, something as creative and wonderful as the flight of birds exists because of threat, without threat it ceases to exist. Maybe those obese people you talk about lack threat.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Once you can carry the structure like a suitcase there is no issue, but if for 10 minutes you walk with a suitcase in your heads, then for 3 minutes you put it back to the floor and carry, then again 5 minutes again you put it in your head...etc. Of course walking is a mess

If you could break the structure 5 min for day, your life would be mostly happiness. I think that the point isn't breaking definitely the structure and be like a mystic full time, because as we are humans, why not enjoy the human interface as much as it's possible?