Alcoholics Anonymous spirituality

[trenton]

I have been in treatment for mental health for two months. During this time I have been required to attend meetings for drugs and alcohol. I am not an alcoholic or drug user so I have been asking about spirituality.

I want to know if there is any validity to this approach to spirituality. This includes things like the 12 steps and having a spiritual awakening to overcome addiction.

It seems like everybody has a different way of conceiving of God. They seem to focus on belief and faith rather than experience and they are strongly opposed to psychedelics. They say that God cannot be intellectualized. I had a hard time using spirituality for things like hope and faith.

What puzzles me the most is that there were so many recovered alcoholics and it looked like the approach to spirituality worked and was practical. They still treat God as something outside of you but it works.

I have been considering trying the 12 steps for mental health. The problem is that I don't get a sense of hope from God. I might be seen as a heratic if I claim I am God. I don't see God as something that guarantees positive results in life.

What do you think about AA spirituality?

[Leo Gura]

It's valid as far as helping addicts.

But it's not a serious consciousness or understanding of God or reality.

Edited October 13 by Leo Gura

[Ishanga]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's valid as far as helping addicts.

But it's not a of serious consciousness or understanding of God or reality.

I agree..

Being an Addict is like Starving to Death, when its that sort of situation, Survival is primary., Talking or trying to pass along Truth and Reality via a Spiritual path or teaching is not what is needed in that sort of situation, the timing is wrong. plus it will fall on deaf ears for sure..  When Survival is taken care of (like it is for most of Us, we have more access to everything today than ever before). then we can talk and go into Spiritual matters where life possibilities open up beyond just Surviving another day and feeding, protecting ourselves and our egos..

Edited October 13 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

My problem with AA is that it teaches people how to stay alcoholics and make them dependent on the system. The "recoverers" aren't aware of this and believe it's the only way; but the main thing is how they introduce themselves. "My name is Adam, and I AM an alcoholic". 

If you know anything about how the mind operates, whatever you say after I AM with conviction and intensity and believe to be the case, you become. So, these unsuspecting addicts will remain in that state forever to the point where they mostly believe they are still alcoholics that can never be cured.

[Leo Gura]

Crocodiles Anonymous:

"My name is Adam, and I AM a crocodile."

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Crocodiles Anonymous:

"My name is Adam, and I AM a crocodile."

lmao.😅

[Raze]

Try when therapy doesn’t work by Shelly Young 

[Terell Kirby]

2 hours ago, trenton said:

I have been considering trying the 12 steps for mental health.

There are a variety of 12 step programs for various addictions. AA is catered to people who struggle with the inability to control their alcohol intake, and looking to abstain through practicing spiritual principles that have somewhat Christian/religious leanings. Other programs like SMART recovery are more secular and don’t place as much emphasis on labels such as ‘alcoholic’ or ‘addict’ and not rooted in following a set of spiritual principles as with most 12 step programs.

In any case, there are lots of resources out there like these, including therapy and other treatment modalities. AA and other 12 step programs should have open meetings that are local in your city/town, where anyone can attend to listen and see if they resonate with the stories of others struggling with mental health and addiction. I have some experience in this arena, so feel free to DM me if I can be of some help.

Edited October 13 by Terell Kirby

[LoseYourvelf]

Find me a study where giving high dose psychedelics to alcoholics DIDN'T help them reduce their intake

🤷‍♂️

Edited October 13 by LoseYourvelf

[trenton]

One thing that bothers me about spirituality in these mental health centers is that truth is treated as secondary. Practicality is treated as more important than truth. Many of these people tell me they would rather believe in a lie and be happy than believe in something true and be miserable. This is the kind of attitude my family takes with truth.

I am not the kind of person who resonates with this attitude. All my life I felt that should avoid self deception where ever I can even if it hurts.

Meanwhile the other patients think I'm a spiritual genius with profound insights. I have repeatedly helped patients restore faith in God and saved them from suicide. I am able to apply everything I learned from spirituality to group discussions and Bible studies. They think I should be the one teaching spirituality and not the delusional guy who keeps giving lectures on the mind, body, soul, and spirit based on his life experience.

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, Ishanga said:

I agree..

Being an Addict is like Starving to Death, when its that sort of situation, Survival is primary., Talking or trying to pass along Truth and Reality via a Spiritual path or teaching is not what is needed in that sort of situation, the timing is wrong. plus it will fall on deaf ears for sure..  When Survival is taken care of (like it is for most of Us, we have more access to everything today than ever before). then we can talk and go into Spiritual matters where life possibilities open up beyond just Surviving another day and feeding, protecting ourselves and our egos..

You're right about this. I wasn't suggesting, though, to go into spiritual matters but to take a different approach where the addicts don't have to introduce themselves as addicts. That's an identity and one that will leave the mind having to defend. If they understood this as leaders, they would realize how that impacts their recovery. I've seen how EFT works and they do have programs that are efficient and impactful because they do take this into consideration and approach their healing practices holistically where their patients heal and not depend on other things to cope.

I used to date a cop turned detective that was an alcoholic and he would say once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. This was after his recovery period started and he never went back, but he had to be cognizant of his weaknesses to avoid triggers. He had anxiety issues and would be easily triggered by traffic. So, they still had issues, just dealt with it in different ways and expressed their anger outward because deep down he wasn't healed. Plus being a cop didn't help. I dated him after all that and after he retired, but the remnants were visible. I knew him for years before while he was a cop but didn't date him then but I could tell he was still dealing with coping issues. He never drank for years but still thought he was an alcoholic. It's because he kept identifying as that.

[Javfly33]

6 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

My problem with AA is that it teaches people how to stay alcoholics and make them dependent on the system. The "recoverers" aren't aware of this and believe it's the only way; but the main thing is how they introduce themselves. "My name is Adam, and I AM an alcoholic". 

If you know anything about how the mind operates, whatever you say after I AM with conviction and intensity and believe to be the case, you become. So, these unsuspecting addicts will remain in that state forever to the point where they mostly believe they are still alcoholics that can never be cured.

Well said, in fact most of this detox centers reinforce the identity of an 'addict', which is precisely what fuels the compulsion of addiction.

One thing is to have a learned habit of using drugs drugs to cope with depression, anxiety, pain, etc, another thing is to have a fantasy/identity on your head that the drug is some sort of 'master' over you, and you have an unexplicable addiction to it because 'addiction is genetic'.

And this allows people to use the so called 'drug addiction' as a way to avoid the deeper core issue, the deeper problem. Since it is believed the problem is the drug addiction, not the WHY of why you keep using drugs. 

Is a smart way of the mind to not look at the deeper issue, because addiction will never end. When you quit, now the drug addiction will consist of how much you have abstained from it. And if you relapse, then of course the fantasy will reinforce itself, and you basically will not do anything more in life. 

Edited October 13 by Javfly33

[Princess Arabia]

49 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Well said, in fact most of this detox centers reinforce the identity of an 'addict', which is precisely what fuels the compulsion of addiction.

One thing is to have a learned habit of using drugs drugs to cope with depression, anxiety, pain, etc, another thing is to have a fantasy/identity on your head that the drug is some sort of 'master' over you, and you have an unexplicable addiction to it because 'addiction is genetic'.

And this allows people to use the so called 'drug addiction' as a way to avoid the deeper core issue, the deeper problem. Since it is believed the problem is the drug addiction, not the WHY of why you keep using drugs. 

Is a smart way of the mind to not look at the deeper issue, because addiction will never end. When you quit, now the drug addiction will consist of how much you have abstained from it. And if you relapse, then of course the fantasy will reinforce itself, and you basically will not do anything more in life. 

Yes, people don't understand that you have to get at the core to fully heal. Most of society's treatments deals with the symptoms and not the root cause. To get at the root cause you have to keep digging deep - a.k.a at the root. Most of the times it's a searching for love. Other people are addicted too but not to the obvious, so they don't consider themselves addicts as in emotions and thoughts. Most of society are walking around with addictions but they don't realize it because of how society is constructed. It's basically a playground of coping mechanisms. This is why most people are unhappy. 

Edited October 13 by Princess Arabia

[Davino]

7 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

My problem with AA is that it teaches people how to stay alcoholics and make them dependent on the system. The "recoverers" aren't aware of this and believe it's the only way; but the main thing is how they introduce themselves. "My name is Adam, and I AM an alcoholic". 

If you know anything about how the mind operates, whatever you say after I AM with conviction and intensity and believe to be the case, you become. So, these unsuspecting addicts will remain in that state forever to the point where they mostly believe they are still alcoholics that can never be cured.

The biggest problem with alcoholics is that they deny having a problem with alcohol. I only drink casually they say. Therefore, admitting to themselves they are alcoholics allows them to recognise they have an addiction problem that needs deliberate action to be solved. Furthermore, it prevents future relapsing as they are aware oh it's not a temporary thing, I cannot drink again as I'm an alcoholic (it has been proven that ex-alcoholics very rarely find a healthy use after their condition but end up relapsing into heavy use and eventual death).

So there you have it, hundreds of psychologists and clinical studies just casually dismissed by your comment.

You really underestimate the depth of everything.

[Davino]

@Javfly33 @Princess Arabia I'm curious to know how much reading and experience you have in the field of drug addiction. Or you are just guessing? 

There's very very serious research in all these fields. Do you really think nobody has already raised those questions fifty years ago? Lmao

If so, try to design a rehab center with your cute ideas and let's compare them with the already existing methods.

[Javfly33]

27 minutes ago, Davino said:

@Javfly33 @Princess Arabia I'm curious to know how much reading and experience you have in the field of drug addiction. Or you are just guessing? 

Yes, I´ve been using opiates pretty much regularly for 5-6 years (with some breaks here and there) and my father used heroin for pretty much all his adult life, I'd say 19 to 55ish years old (taking some breaks also, but pretty much a regular habit)

The issue I have with this addict mentality is that people  project the responsability of their life to an inert powder or pill, which has none. 

 

Self-defined 'addicts' use the concept of 'addiction illness' to justify all kind of acts and to keep themselves in a wheel for ever, when the problem is the addiction, this is the perfect way to avoid looking at the core issue.  

 

It also enhances you and facilitates your drug use with no remorse of consciousnesss. For example, unless you´ve been on a 4 day no-sleep meth binge or something like that (that you basically become psychotic) no drug in the existence will make you rob anyone. If you get withdrawals you should accept that you are going to feel like shit and that´s it, however, a lot of people use this 'Oh but i´m sick! I need to money to get the drugs' to justify robbing or manipulate anyone to get money. In actuality you are just a little liar that wants to get high again. 

With an addiction identity you have the perfect excuse to justify all kind of behaviour. I´ve seen countless of people using tricks like this.

 

Basically the trick of the whole addiction identity thing is based on avoiding that you have responsability on your life and the drug addiction actually does not exist, you are just choosing to use drugs every single day because you don´t want to change your life. You still don´t want to look within. 

Btw, I must say I do not have first-hand or second-hand experience with alcohol users. But I´d bet is usually the same behaviour other drug users, just that because of the different drug effects the behaviour is lightly different. 

The only difference probably is that alcohol or alcohol+coke use will destroy you particularly faster. 

Edited October 13 by Javfly33

[Davino]

@Javfly33 That's a more nuanced comment. It's true that the addiction identity presents the limitations you are pointing. It also presents the benefits that I was pointings.

[Javfly33]

2 minutes ago, Davino said:

@Javfly33 That's a more nuanced comment. It's true that the addiction identity presents the limitations you are pointing. It also presents the benefits that I was pointings.

Yes, it has benefits in terms of awareness, is true people built up habits, i would say a drug use is an habit of evasion.

Of course if you would ask me, if tomorrow drugs dissappears from the planet, would you say yes? I would say yes, because the learned habit of using a substance to escape or numb reality has the price that you lose a lot of time, what in terms of personal development would take 10 years maybe it will take you 30 years.

So i think the awareness of it is good, you are using something compulsively, however is the victim mentality of it which i find dangerous. My use never have prevented me from anything in life, is just something i lose time and focus, so if i wouldn´t have it my development would be way faster, but is not something that prevents me from doing anything. However self-called addicts make their whole life around his drug use, which i find completely ridiculous. 

 Is true also that with harder substances like heavy alcohol drinking or coke/meth this is more difficult to do, since health impact is worse, but usually at the end of the day as i said no drug has power on oneself, one is choosing every single day...

[gettoefl]

9 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

My problem with AA is that it teaches people how to stay alcoholics and make them dependent on the system. The "recoverers" aren't aware of this and believe it's the only way; but the main thing is how they introduce themselves. "My name is Adam, and I AM an alcoholic". 

If you know anything about how the mind operates, whatever you say after I AM with conviction and intensity and believe to be the case, you become. So, these unsuspecting addicts will remain in that state forever to the point where they mostly believe they are still alcoholics that can never be cured.

We're all addicts

We don't heal

what we hide

[Ishanga]

6 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

You're right about this. I wasn't suggesting, though, to go into spiritual matters but to take a different approach where the addicts don't have to introduce themselves as addicts. That's an identity and one that will leave the mind having to defend. If they understood this as leaders, they would realize how that impacts their recovery. I've seen how EFT works and they do have programs that are efficient and impactful because they do take this into consideration and approach their healing practices holistically where their patients heal and not depend on other things to cope.

I used to date a cop turned detective that was an alcoholic and he would say once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. This was after his recovery period started and he never went back, but he had to be cognizant of his weaknesses to avoid triggers. He had anxiety issues and would be easily triggered by traffic. So, they still had issues, just dealt with it in different ways and expressed their anger outward because deep down he wasn't healed. Plus being a cop didn't help. I dated him after all that and after he retired, but the remnants were visible. I knew him for years before while he was a cop but didn't date him then but I could tell he was still dealing with coping issues. He never drank for years but still thought he was an alcoholic. It's because he kept identifying as that.

I agree, the identity that I am "Always" an addict or Alcoholic is not Empowering IMO, and then they lose their ability to Respond, and become Reactive in nature. Having the ability to Respond, gives back sovereignty to ones self.  Just imagine Your hand and arm just moving around at will, up down sideways, on its on will, would that be a problem? So why is that we think controlling our thoughts, our fears and desires is not possible when we can control most all other parts of our body in major ways? 

There's always other issues underlying the need to use any substance for pain or suffering relief, watch Gabor Mate, he's an expert on this stuff, worked downtown Vancouver drug addiction central for many years...its mostly about childhood, lack of love or attention and issues being push down then suffering comes afterwards...

This is why I like the Path of Bliss, Bliss is not the goal of any spiritual path or method, but its the grease/oil of the engine, when Your in a Blissful state regularly, Your not working against yourself, Your intelligence that is within is working for You now, and that will propel You to higher Possibilities and Potentials on the Spiritual Path, its a tragedy isn't it when most all the ppl on the planet are not living up to their Potential, and most are not!