2024 Election Discussion General

[Scholar]

9 hours ago, What Am I said:

This one definitely maps on to reality. Would it be what Ken Wilber referred to as "mean green," or is that something different?

I'm not familiar with that terms, I think Wilber overexaggerated the problems of green a little (or rather their causation) and validated the knee-jerk reactions of lower stages too much, like with Jordan Peterson.

The sad thing is the more dysfunctional green grows, the more difficult it will be for green to grow out of it's current stage.

[Javfly33]

52 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

@Javfly33

Hello another US politics uneducated forum user polluting the thread.

You should be better than that and you should know it's not about ideology. 

FYI, I'm not a progressive.  

I am enough informed to know Trump did such outrighteous things to be close to end in jail... now let me ask you something, why your system even allows  someone like him to be President?

Maybe political/legal system US is already deeply corrupt if It has allow Trump to have another presidency

Edited November 7 by Javfly33

[zurew]

16 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Makes 0 difference practically? 
 

Come on man. There are infinite practical differences made by it. Think of any circumstance where you wish to guide an individual or groups behaviour. Or any situation you want to understand. 
Your degree of belief in free will v determinism will make an incredible difference. 

Yes it makes 0 difference practically.

Under determinism you have no control over your belief whether you believe in determinism or not or whether you want to guide others you just do so and you experience it as if you would have power over it. Its not like "now I wont do shit , because everything is predermined" - because that thought itself is predermined.

Under free-will you have the experience of having the exact same sense of free will as under determinism.

The experience of choosing doesn't change.

[Sincerity]

12 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I am enough informed to know Trump did such outrighteous things to be close to end in jail... now let me ask you something, why your system even allows  someone like him to be President?

Maybe political/legal system US is already deeply corrupt if It has allow Trump to have another presidency

I don't see at all how this is a response to our replies before but fine, I won't question. Good to know then you have an awareness of his corruption.

[kray]

Long but interesting video. I do agree that in our case the extreme polarization in politics definitely stems from the algorithms on social media, or any media for that matter, serving the people clickbaity, trash content.

[Thought Art]

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

It's scary actually how brain warped he is.

Look I'm not saying become a Trump die heart.  But let's look at the better of two evils.  Today.  neither of these two leaders are going to advance our society any further.  We are hundreds of years from that.  Right now we have to put food on the table and make sure we have money at the end of the month.   Let's make sure we go with the better of the two within the context of what we are dealing with.  But they are so deep into their party that they want to call the right the devil and that it will be so corrupt that we will never see the light of day again.  

I promise you unless I do some real damage to my health I'll see you in 2028.   We'll still be here, probably better than ever.

I don't see it like this at all. 

If trumps does what he says with his tariffs good luck feeding your family. 

Kamala actually had policies to help the working class. We weren't hundreds of years from basic policy, unions, etc.

Biden and Kamala didn't spend much time demonizing the other side. Trump did. Demonization happens when one side lies and makes the other to make them look evil.

There is actually corruption happening on the right that is worse than the left. 

[Javfly33]

35 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

I don't see at all how this is a response to our replies before but fine, I won't question. 

My point is once Trump has been elected you have to respect the decision of the people not just think oh they are stupid for voting Trump.

The point of democracy is you accept majority of the people have voted someone you do not like...instead of thinking they are clueless or dumb, just accepting this decision and work on your own party or whatever for the next election.

But no, this thing of since the ones that I like have not won, then "I am pissed and they are wrong" This ends usually bad, ends by people assassing others in power because they think they are the bad ones.

So while you guys think you are being so amazingly conscious I see something quite the opposite, you lack consciousness to understand and include the majority of America that have voted Trump.

You are basically behaving like radicals, if you want to practice your conscious politics how about you practice open-mindedness and inclusion of ideas. 

Edited November 7 by Javfly33

[Thorsten Fuzzi]

10 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I now really wish that Obama could've saved us from Trump.

I fear that we may never have another heroic leader like him who could save our country from this darkness we are in.

There is everything in reach to save yourself. Take responsibility.

[Happy Lizard]

@Javfly33 

 

using an AI assistant:

 

Plato was critical of democracy particularly because he believed that it could lead to totalitarian rule by those who manipulate the opinions of uneducated citizens. He argued that only a highly educated society could sustain a democracy effectively, as uneducated individuals might make poor decisions in governance.

[Sincerity]

@Javfly33 Of course you respect the democratic decision, but that doesn't mean many aren't genuinely clueless or dumb. And on this forum specifically we expect higher quality politics and thus we moderate the place.

If you'd care to look at the Forum Guidelines you'd find this:

Quote

Basic guidelines for quality posting:

• No right-wing political dogma, talking-points, Trumpism, or denial of basic facts.

At some point you stop being "open" to bullshit when you've seen enough of it and you can read it like a book. We don't have to be open to bullshit forever for the sake of "open-mindedness". The devil utilizes this notion to spread himself and wreak havoc again and again.

"Take just ONE bite of the cookie bro, be open-minded, why limit yourself? Why are you so closed-minded to eating sugar? This whole notion of eating healthy is really just you being dense and closed-minded... You should be more open-minded bro..."

Btw, I'm not from the US.

Edited November 7 by Sincerity

[Consept]

6 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

@Javfly33 

 

using an AI assistant:

 

Plato was critical of democracy particularly because he believed that it could lead to totalitarian rule by those who manipulate the opinions of uneducated citizens. He argued that only a highly educated society could sustain a democracy effectively, as uneducated individuals might make poor decisions in governance.

This is a major flaw of democracy, if someone isn't educated on how democracy and government even works how can they really know what they're voting for? 

This doesn't mean that they shouldn't vote but there needs to be some kind of education around this, otherwise manipulation is always going to happen from either side because the rewards are so great. If Trump says tarriffs will solve everything for those that don't know all it means is everything will get more expensive or won't even make sense to import. I don't believe if people are worried about things getting more expensive that they would vote in an idea that makes things more expensive. 

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Jayson G said:

@Leo Gura How do you sort the fact from fiction? 

For ex. recently trump said he wants to stop all wars, or something like that. Most likely that is one of his bullshit games. But a) how do you know what he says, as president and leader going forward, is true or not? and b) in general is there strategies for sorting truth from fiction? I have been wondering this for a while. 

Especially in politics, news, even books, it's a mess out there to sort through. 

It's easy. When you see a chronic liar with zero integrity, you stop believing anything he says or promises.

3 strikes rule: a person lies to you 3 times, he's done. Nothing he says beyond that is ever trusted or taken seriously.

Edited November 7 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

@Javfly33 Of course you respect the democratic decision, but that doesn't mean many aren't genuinely clueless or dumb. And on this forum specifically we expect higher quality politics and thus we moderate the place.

If you've ever cared to look at the Forum Guidelines you'll find this:

At some point you stop being "open" to bullshit when you've seen enough of it and you can read it like a book. We don't have to be open to bullshit forever for the sake of "open-mindedness". The devil utilizes this notion to spread himself and wreak havoc again and again.

"Take just ONE bite of the cookie bro, be open-minded, why limit yourself? Why are you so closed-minded to eating sugar? This whole notion of eating healthy is really just you being dense closed-minded... You should be more open-minded bro..."

Btw, I'm not from the US.

Right, there is a question of identiy this forum has struggling with.

It's hard to have high quality discussions without being exclusionary of lower quality posts. Given what this forum is, we should be having cutting edge conversations instead of debating the lowest quality type of positions imaginable, because this forum is unique in that it offers that potential.

It feels like a waste of energy to make this forum about attempting to "improve" lower quality consciousness, rather than discussing high consciousness stuff.

Edited November 7 by Scholar

[Sincerity]

Just now, Scholar said:

It's hard to have high quality discussions without being exclusionary of lower quality posts. Given what this forum is, we should be having cutting edge conversations instead of debating the lowest quality type of positions imaginable, because this forum is unique in that it offers that potential.

Exactly this.

[Hardkill]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's easy. When you see a chronic liar with zero integrity, you stop believing anything he says or promises.

3 strikes rule: a person lies to you 3 times, he's done. Nothing he says beyond that is ever trusted or taken seriously.

It makes me so sick to my stomach that someone who is many times worse than Nixon got another term as president and even did better than ever before. 

Nixon was totally finished with his political career after Watergate, but Trump got essentially an incredible pass for things so much worse than what Nixon did. 

I feel like we are no longer living in a first world country.

Edited November 7 by Hardkill

[Spiritual Warfare]

Suicide is nothing to joke about, but this is just so ridiculous.

[zazen]

11 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

 

If you'd care to look at the Forum Guidelines you'd find this:

No right-wing political dogma, talking-points, Trumpism, or denial of basic facts.

 

This is why so many liberals were taken by surprise by this election result. No exposure to right wing talking points and cocooning themselves in left wing echo chamber away from the pulse of society. See my reply below regarding stage green for example:

5 hours ago, Alex4 said:

Green stage is the beautiful stage. It’s the stage that reconnects you with nature, your community, and, paradoxically, even with your country. Once you step into green, you begin to see just how full of shit blue and orange are.

I’m considering starting a thread to explain how to embrace the green stage. Many of you fall into the trap of thinking you can somehow reach yellow by skipping green.

That's the problem, those stages aren't full of shit.  I think the framework of spiral dynamics is limited and actually skews our perception of reality because we tend to approach it as higher / lower and conflate that with better / worse or more / less developed. It's spiral dynamics apartheid and tribalism with fancy clothes.

Maybe it's not about a simplistic ladder like view of development, and we should instead see the different values and worldviews as interdependent and mutually reinforcing. In fact its better to view it like a pyramid where stage red is the base. We need the warrior of stage red to protect us, the order of blue to stabilise us, the innovation of orange to excel us, the humanity of green to be fair, and the systems of yellow to tie all them together in balance. Like Leo said earlier - this should open our eyes to survival, survival, survival. Exactly! Stage green sucks at survival to the point we can't have a society orient around those values as they neither produce wealth nor safety which is why people are leaving Cali.

Also, it’s not like these values in a “higher stage” weren’t available to humanity before or aren’t even being lived out by people right now across the political aisle or border. Indigenous people were living out green values in harmony with the earth before we had pronouns or became vegan. The conservative old church lady probably bakes cookies for her neighbours in rural America whilst a liberal Karen who has “Kindness is everything” as her bio shouts at the barista for getting her coffee order wrong.

"Stages" of development aren't a staircase for consciousness climbers, they're more like a pyramid. The base of that pyramid are the values and ''stages'' we're all too busy looking down on from our stage green pulpit.

[Psychonaut]

I don't know why, maybe its just my desire to see the world burn. But I was incredibly happy to see president Trump win when I woke up on Tuesday. It is going to be an entertaining four years. 

[Stovo]

32 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

My point is once Trump has been elected you have to respect the decision of the people not just think oh they are stupid for voting Trump.

One of the mistakes that leftist intellectuals make is they simply think that conservatives are fundamentally stupid. 

If you're a working class straight white male and you're constantly told you're the scum of the earth by the left then there's no way in hell you're going to vote for them. 

[Terell Kirby]

1 minute ago, Stovo said:

If you're a working class straight white male and you're constantly told you're the scum of the earth by the left then there's no way in hell you're going to vote for them. 

Not sure this is accurate, I haven’t seen any narratives from the progressive left that working class white men are scum. If anything, that is a narrative projected by MAGA/far right onto immigrants, globalists elites, academics and trans people.