2024 Election Discussion General

[Joshe]

14 minutes ago, Raze said:

I dislike Vaush but I thought his analysis is spot on

Yeah, I don't like him much either but he has some good reads from time to time. If he's right, it seems like the Dems are done for good without a major change, which I doubt they'll be able to pull off. They'll have to abandon anything with a hint of wokeness. 

[Gennadiy1981]

22 minutes ago, Raze said:

I dislike Vaush but I thought his analysis is good, though missing the young man issue

 

 

Nice content. I am actually seeing the Arizona and especially Nevada will give to Trump now. I wonder now if Leo is a closet Trump supporter?

[bambi]

39 minutes ago, Consept said:

1. No but I think he would if guard rails weren't on and pushes at as much as he can

2. Potential for it but not yet 

3. Yes obviously they're eating the dogs 

4. Jan 6th but generally not really 

5. Yes def 

6. Not really but argument for corpatism if he has his way 

7. Yes fake news 

8. Yes maga 

9. Yes, Marxism, liberals, immigrants 

10. Yes of course 

7 definite yes even if I disregard the others completely, I would say that's enough for the label 

 

Your biases will make you incapable of percieving truth my friend. GPT4o assessment then Sonnet 3.5 review and re-assessment.

Here’s a detailed analysis of how former U.S. President Donald Trump aligns with each of the commonly recognized characteristics of fascism, followed by a rating out of 10 for each:

1. Ultranationalism

Trump’s platform prominently features “America First,” promoting an intense focus on American identity and interests over global concerns. His rhetoric often emphasizes American greatness and frames the U.S. as superior to other nations. This aligns closely with ultranationalistic ideologies.

Rating: 8/10

2. Authoritarianism

Trump has been criticized for his apparent disregard for established political norms, including checks and balances, and his inclination to consolidate executive power. He often clashed with institutions like the judiciary and press, and expressed frustration with independent oversight. His comments regarding the continuation of his presidency past the traditional two terms also raised concerns. However, while there are authoritarian tendencies, he did not have the unchecked control typical of authoritarian regimes.

Rating: 6/10

3. Cult of Personality

Trump’s personal brand and persona are central to his appeal. Supporters often view him as a figure of unique strength and honesty, who fights against the establishment and mainstream media. His rallies and social media presence reinforced a personal loyalty that goes beyond typical political allegiance. Though a cult of personality exists, it is not as all-encompassing as in traditional fascist regimes.

Rating: 7/10

4. Suppression of Dissent

While Trump’s rhetoric was highly critical of dissenters, including the media and political opponents, and he frequently labeled critical press as “fake news” or “enemy of the people,” his administration did not achieve state-level censorship or eliminate political opposition. However, his language and actions created a polarized environment where opposing views were delegitimized and disparaged, impacting free discourse to an extent.

Rating: 5/10

5. Militarism

Trump expressed admiration for military strength and power, often advocating for a strong national defense. However, his administration avoided initiating major conflicts and even aimed to withdraw troops from certain regions. This stands in contrast to traditional fascist leaders who aggressively pursue militaristic expansion.

Rating: 4/10

6. Control of Mass Media and Propaganda

Trump frequently disparaged the mainstream media and attempted to shape public opinion through his social media platforms. His administration sometimes engaged in misinformation or selective narratives, particularly through outlets like Fox News and other supportive media. However, he did not have total control over the media, which is a staple of fascist regimes.

Rating: 6/10

7. Anti-Intellectualism

Trump’s rhetoric often included skepticism toward established science and experts, particularly around issues like climate change and, later, COVID-19. He also disparaged intellectuals and promoted alternative narratives that sometimes aligned with conspiracy theories. While there were elements of anti-intellectualism, this was not a defining feature of his presidency.

Rating: 5/10

8. Scapegoating

A core element of Trump’s political strategy involved blaming various groups for America’s problems, particularly immigrants, as well as foreign entities like China. He frequently linked economic, social, and political issues to these groups, creating a division between “true Americans” and perceived threats. This characteristic aligns significantly with fascist ideologies.

Rating: 8/10

9. Economic Control

Trump advocated for a free-market economy but also imposed tariffs, renegotiated trade deals, and pressured industries to align with his administration’s economic goals. While there were protectionist tendencies, he did not exert comprehensive control over industries, as seen in classic fascist economies.

Rating: 4/10

10. Emphasis on Traditional Values

Trump promoted traditional values, opposing progressive movements on issues like gender, sexuality, and immigration. His administration attempted to restore conservative values, aligning with the concept of a “return to greatness.” This emphasis was more cultural than structural, lacking some of the regressive policies enforced by fascist regimes.

Rating: 7/10

Final Assessment

Trump exhibits some tendencies that align with fascist characteristics, particularly in areas such as ultranationalism, scapegoating, and the promotion of a strong personality-driven movement. However, there are significant differences. While his rhetoric and some policies resonate with aspects of fascist ideology, he lacks the level of authoritarian control, militarism, and direct economic management characteristic of historical fascist leaders.

In conclusion, labeling Trump as a pure fascist would be an oversimplification, as he does not fully meet the criteria associated with fascist regimes. However, he demonstrates enough characteristics to be described as exhibiting “fascistic” tendencies, particularly in his approach to nationalism, rhetoric against opposition, and the polarization of societal groups.

Overall Label: Not a fascist by strict definition, but aligns closely with several fascistic elements.

 

Claudeo Sonnet 3.5 I'll provide my own assessment using the same criteria:

Ultranationalism (7/10) While Trump's "America First" rhetoric and policies demonstrated strong nationalist tendencies, they were more aligned with populist nationalism than the extreme forms seen in historical fascist regimes. His focus was primarily on economic and cultural nationalism rather than racial or ethnic supremacy at a state level.

Authoritarianism (7/10) I rate this higher than the previous analysis because of specific actions: attempting to overturn election results, pressuring state officials to "find votes," using federal forces against protesters, and pardoning political allies. However, his attempts were significantly constrained by democratic institutions.

Cult of Personality (8/10) I would rate this higher because the personality cult around Trump has shown remarkable resilience and intensity. His supporters often display unconditional loyalty despite contradictory evidence or actions, and many continue to view him as an almost messianic figure.

Suppression of Dissent (6/10) Beyond rhetoric, there were concrete attempts to suppress opposition through legal threats, encouraging violence against protesters, and using executive power to punish critics. However, these attempts were largely unsuccessful due to institutional resistance.

Militarism (3/10) I rate this lower because Trump actually showed reluctance toward military intervention and started no new conflicts. While he celebrated military strength, his actions were more isolationist than militaristic.

Control of Mass Media and Propaganda (7/10) While lacking direct control, Trump's influence over right-wing media created an effective propaganda ecosystem. His ability to shape alternative narratives and discredit traditional media sources was particularly effective.

Anti-Intellectualism (7/10) I rate this higher due to systematic efforts to undermine scientific institutions, particularly during COVID-19, climate change discussions, and the promotion of alternative facts. His administration also actively removed scientists from advisory roles.

Scapegoating (9/10) This deserves a higher rating due to the consistent and systematic targeting of various groups: immigrants, Muslims, Democrats, the media, China, and others. This was a central strategy rather than a peripheral element.

Economic Control (3/10) Beyond tariffs and some intervention in specific companies' decisions, Trump largely promoted free-market policies. His approach was more traditionally conservative than fascist in economic matters.

Emphasis on Traditional Values (6/10) While Trump aligned with conservative values politically, his personal behavior and history often contradicted traditional values. The emphasis seemed more tactical than ideological.

Final Assessment: My analysis suggests Trump's presidency exhibited strong elements of proto-fascism rather than classical fascism. The key differences from the previous analysis are:

I see stronger evidence of authoritarian tendencies, particularly in concrete actions taken to maintain power.

The cult of personality appears more developed and consequential.

Anti-intellectualism was more systematic and institutional.

Scapegoating was more central to his political strategy.

However, I agree that calling Trump a fascist would be an overstatement. Instead, I would characterize his approach as "authoritarian populism with fascistic elements." The main constraints on full fascist development were:

Strong democratic institutions

Constitutional limits on executive power

Free press

Independent judiciary

Federal system of government

The danger lies not in whether Trump fully achieved fascist control, but in how his presidency normalized certain authoritarian tendencies and weakened democratic norms. The lasting impact on democratic institutions and political discourse may be more significant than any immediate policy changes.

Overall Label: Authoritarian populist with strong fascistic tendencies, but constrained by democratic institutions.

This assessment differs somewhat from GPT-4's analysis while maintaining a similar framework and reaching broadly similar conclusions.

 

Edited November 6 by bambi

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, kray said:

It’s because she’s a black women. That’s as simple as it gets. Not a lot of people in this country are ready for that in all honesty.

That is certainly a factor.

[Something Funny]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That is certainly a factor.

how can people be so shallow, it's honestly mind boggling

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Something Funny said:

how can people be so shallow, it's honestly mind boggling

Because they’re mostly probably not.

I think it’s only a small factor.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

how can people be so shallow, it's honestly mind boggling

This summer one of my family members who doesn't follow politics at all asked me: So, who is running for President? I said, a black woman. And my family member replied, "Ewww.... another monkey?"

That's politics.

Edited November 6 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

Why play the race card to excuse Kamala not winning over America? She wasn’t even popular amongst Democrats themselves and Obama has been president before.

We all know she was hollow, scripted, cringe - can’t even come out to speak to her own supporters. That’s why she avoided long podcasts - she wouldn’t have been able to get past a hour on Rogan without fumbling.

So off the mark.

if Candace ran do we seriously think many people wouldn’t vote because she’s black. Of course there’s a subset of people who wouldn’t, but it’s over amplified. 

Edited November 6 by zazen

[What Am I]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

This summer one of my family members who doesn't follow politics at all asked me, Who is running for President? I said, a black woman. And my family member replied, "Ewww.... another monkey?"

Jeez! That actually doesn't speak well of your family, lol. Hopefully they were at least trying to be humorous instead of serious.

[Leo Gura]

Why pretend like racism and sexism doesn't exist when it obviously does?

There is no doubt Kamala was a mediocre candidate. I said that before. But race and sex matter too.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Jeez! That actually doesn't speak well of your family, lol. Hopefully they were at least trying to be humorous instead of serious.

Humorous?

Edited November 6 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This summer one of my family members who doesn't follow politics at all asked me: So, who is running for President? I said, a black woman. And my family member replied, "Ewww.... another monkey?"

That's politics.

Is this a Russian family member fresh off the boat or something?

[bambi]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

Why play the race card to excuse Kamala not winning over America? She wasn’t even popular amongst Democrats themselves and Obama has been president before.

We all know she was hollow, scripted, cringe - can’t even come out to speak to her own supporters. That’s why she avoided long podcasts - she wouldn’t have been able to get past a hour without freezing up.

So off the mark.

Exactly, how can people not see this. However bad Trump was, Kamala was a caricature, and built no confidence at all, she seems like a somewhat nice person, but highly artificial and incompetent

[zazen]

Joel Salatin is a mentor of Tai Lopez. Good start so far.. Trump this time round seems to really have organised around getting the right people in position. Imagine JD Vance / Tulsi in 2028.

 

No one’s mentioned Dick and Liz Cheney backing and campaigning with Kamala as yet.. surely that’s a clear red flag. 

Edited November 6 by zazen

[Princess Arabia]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This summer one of my family members who doesn't follow politics at all asked me: So, who is running for President? I said, a black woman. And my family member replied, "Ewww.... another monkey?"

I guess they meant this monkey.

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, bambi said:

Exactly, how can people not see this. However bad Trump was, Kamala was a caricature, and built no confidence at all, she seems like a somewhat nice person, but highly artificial and incompetent

And it’s not her fault. She can’t be different than she is. But the dems were silly to pick her.

[What Am I]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no doubt Kamala was a mediocre candidate. I said that before. But race and sex matter too.

I hate to be one of those guys that splits the middle, but the answer is likely that racism and sexism mattered more than Reps think, but less than Dems imagine.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

Joel Salatin is a mentor of Tai Lopez. Good start so far.. Trump this time round seems to really have organised around getting the right people in position. Imagine JD Vance / Tulsi in 2028.

Don't belive any of this nonsense. The Trump admin will be pure corruption and self-dealing from top to bottom.

All of these people are corrupt grifters. They will try to sell you on a bunch of bullshit but we know they are corrupt at the core.

Edited November 6 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

1 minute ago, What Am I said:

I hate to be one of those guys that splits the middle, but the answer is likely that racism and sexism mattered more than Reps think, but less than Dems imagine.

Let's be honest, her race and sex probably gave her both equal votes and lost votes, so a net zero.

[What Am I]

Just now, bambi said:

Let's be honest, her race and sex probably gave her both equal votes and lost votes, so a net zero.

Ah, decent counter. Very true that merely being a non-white female is seen as a virtue in itself in many Dem circles.