2024 Election Discussion General

[bambi]

Just now, What Am I said:

The "both sides" talk will enrage the forum members like nothing else. Personally, I think there's more of a point to be made there than many would like to admit. It's so easy to view your own opinions with less scrutiny.

Im from the UK and decided for the first time out of curiosity to look into the presidential elections and my honest attempt at unbiased take away was

1) Trump is incompetent and self-aggrandized, but at least he doesnt try and hide it. So you have some bearing of being able to figure him out. He idd a 3 hrs rogan podcast even though he can barely speak.

2) Kamala is too fake and artificial, alot of her policies seem the right intention, inclusive, more holisitc etc etc, but she lacks any substance, again screams incompetence (Trump does too), but she has an artificial constructed veneer thats offputting and dishonest

3) I equally liked both vice presidents, they actually seem integrous and competent, both of them seem liked decent people to me, and its wierd how they are not both in presidential positons, much more authentic, honest and intelligent then both presidential candidates. I dont understnad US politics enough, but I would elect both VP to presidential status actually. 

[QandC]

@zurew

Ok.. so now we're going down the “gotcha” route, because you think that if I can’t slap down hard evidence on the table, my argument’s all fluff? Please. The fact that you're asking me to spoon-feed you “facts” about why millions of Americans aren't mindless low-info robots is almost as lazy as the argument you're making.

But alright, let’s address the Trump voter thing since you're so convinced they must all be some monolithic, conspiracy-blinded group. Yes, Trump’s record is full of controversy, legal cases, and scandals that anyone with a pulse has probably heard about. But the reality is, voters don’t just look at one angle. They look at what affects their lives, the values they resonate with, or the ways they feel their communities have been ignored. This isn’t some mystical theory—it’s called nuance, something you seem to think voters don’t have.

You want tangible evidence? Look at studies on why people vote, any behavioral psychologist can tell you that people are complex. Here's one for example: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~baron/journal/16/161128a/jdm161128a.html

Voters often choose leaders who reflect something deeper about their needs or concerns, and for a lot of Trump supporters, that’s not about ignoring the facts. It’s about feeling alienated by establishment politicians who they believe don’t listen to them, or worse, look down on them (ironically, kinda like how you’re doing right now).

But fine, let's play your game: what "facts" are you bringing to the table about how these voters are low-info? You’ve done nothing but parrot the same tired assumption without backing it up. You’re dismissing a whole segment of people because it’s easier than trying to understand their motivations. Voting isn’t a matter of “high info” or “low info.” It’s way more complicated than that, and if you’re gonna sit here and reduce it to people being “blinded by conspiratorial thinking,” then you’re proving my point more than you’re challenging it.

But then again, I am speaking from a PoV of someone who's studied behavioral science and psychology, so obviously my replies are filtered through a sort of lense. Also, I get turned on by debating, like sexually... its my evil side that I'm working on.

Edited November 6 by QandC

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

Sure, business development manager, sales manager, sales strategist, commercial strategist, sales and marketing, etc all good roles for him

OK what if you heard that he didnt pay his bills and stiffed and ripped off lots of people he worked with previously? https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/meet-the-many-small-business-owners-stiffed-by-donald-trump.html 

as well as having lots of disastrous business deals that cost people a lot of money when they failed? https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-05-18/trump-business-partners-outline-his-failed-deals

[zurew]

34 minutes ago, QandC said:

Not happy that Trump won - I dont like any of them, they're all vampires

Absolute cinema right there.

That shows me that you are a low info voter at best (and thats me being charitable, cause Im assuming you havent parsed through all the data about Trump and ended up concluding "both sides are equally bad").

[Da77en]

I was shocked to see that Trump won. I feel this is a good time to remind ourselves that one aspect of spirituality is to bring yourself into a level of evolution where even if you are put into situations and circumstances of hell you are still in heaven because you have made a heaven within yourself. Whether or not the situations on Earth are worsened because of this election we can use this to grow even more rapidly because of the recognition that our well-being is capable of being developed in such a way that it won’t actually matter what happens in the “outside” reality and we will always utilize it to our highest advantage.

Also the people who voted Trump in did so because they simply aren’t conscious enough to actually know better so this is a good barometer to see how much work we need to do.

Edited November 6 by Da77en

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Consept said:

OK what if you heard that he didnt pay his bills and stiffed and ripped off lots of people he worked with previously? https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/meet-the-many-small-business-owners-stiffed-by-donald-trump.html 

as well as having lots of disastrous business deals that cost people a lot of money when they failed? https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-05-18/trump-business-partners-outline-his-failed-deals

But this is everyone, you have to interpret this through the correct lens: the society and paradigm he grew up in.

There is no doubt about Trumps lack of integrity or selfishness, if thats your point. I agree he is way off the mark here

But beyond this issue (whcih affects pretty much all humans), he has natural affinity to the roles I mentioned.

[What Am I]

2 minutes ago, bambi said:

Im from the UK and decided for the first time out of curiosity to look into the presidential elections and my honest attempt at unbiased take away was

1) Trump is incompetent and self-aggrandized, but at least he doesnt try and hide it. So you have some bearing of being able to figure him out. He idd a 3 hrs rogan podcast even though he can barely speak.

2) Kamala is too fake and artificial, alot of her policies seem the right intention, inclusive, more holisitc etc etc, but she lacks any substance, again screams incompetence (Trump does too), but she has an artificial constructed veneer thats offputting and dishonest

3) I equally liked both vice presidents, they actually seem integrous and competent, both of them seem liked decent people to me, and its wierd how they are not both in presidential positons, much more authentic, honest and intelligent then both presidential candidates. I dont understnad US politics enough, but I would elect both VP to presidential status actually. 

I bet this is a pretty common take. The wholly fake politicians of old will have a difficult time going forward, where a more realistic personability is an expectation.

[Thought Art]

Kamala actually has a successful a career, and is worth like 8 million dollars. She is self made.
 

Trump was given millions by his dad and went bankrupt four times. 

Edited November 6 by Thought Art

[MarkKol]

America's expensive college system is feeding into republican and ring-wing degeneracy, you take a step into Canada and suddenly you're in a country where conservatives actually make sense.

Edited November 6 by MarkKol

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

Even with inflation, America has the lowest out of all developed nations if i remember right, so literally have had the best result you couldve had dealing with it

But people are ignorant. They don't think about real causes. They just feel the pain of buying expensive eggs and butter and feel bad. They don't know the underlying reasons or factors. They just feel bad and vote against the status quo hoping for some desperate change. They don't think that Trump might make it worse, they react to things like animals. It doesn't matter to them that inflation was global or whatever.

Edited November 6 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

Trump got around the same amount of votes that he got in 2020, it’s democrats who lost a ton of votes.

Basically Trump maintained his base, democrats lost some of theirs.

[Yimpa]

Zooming out from Trump noise, we do see some victory for minority groups. For example, we’ve got the first transgender elected to Congress:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna177878

[Nemra]

I don't get how people could accuse Kamala of being a DEI hire while forgetting how Trump got elected in 2016.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

Trump got around the same amount of votes that he got in 2020, it’s democrats who lost a ton of votes.

Basically Trump maintained his base, democrats lost some of theirs.

That's because most media was acting like Biden was useless and got nothing done. This is what years of anti-mainstream media bashwashing leads to. People end up hating the mainstrean and elect even worse alternatives, not better alternatives.

When you bash the mainstream what you get in practice is not better but worse.

Edited November 6 by Leo Gura

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I don't get how people could accuse Kamala of being a DEI hire while forgetting how Trump got elected in 2016.

Trump beat a bunch of candidates in an open primary.

Kamala was selected as a black woman to contrast with Biden (DEI) and then handed the democratic ticket.

Edited November 6 by hundreth

[GroovyGuru]

@Leo Gura Leo, give me a break. The Democrats are losers and are utterly incompetent, and completely deserved this loss. What exactly has Kamala been offering to the American people? She is an awkward, un-charismatic, hollow box with no ideology or vision for the future. We Americans don't owe anybody our vote. They must earn it. I'm sick and tired of these useless Dems thinking we owe them everything. Not only do the Democrats completely deserve this loss as a consequence of their incompetence (by anointing Kamala, a deeply unpopular and dull candidate that NOBODY voted for), but they deserve to be PUNISHED for the atrocities they are funding in the Levant. It turns out genocide is a red-line for a lot of voters, and I admire and applaud all of those who withheld their votes. There must be consequences for their actions. How else can they learn their lesson and change in the future? We must force them. Soon, the Biden administration will be in the dustbin of history, and we will NOT remember it kindly.

[mojsterr]

Does this mean Kayleigh will be back?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

What exactly has Kamala been offering to the American people?

What has Trump been offering?

You are okay with a fascist but Kamala is too hard to swallow?

Kamala offered a normal competent administration. If that isn't sexy enough for you, then tough. Fascism it is.

Edited November 6 by Leo Gura

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, QandC said:

In shorrrt, while manipulation and media influence are factors in any election, reducing the public to a passive, low-consciousness mass ignores the reality of democratic agency and the complex motivations behind voting. Rather than writing off entire segments of the population, a more constructive approach is to engage with them, recognize their concerns, and work toward a political environment where differing views are not simply dismissed, but understood!!

You have like 10 incorrect assumptions about my perspective. I have not simply "reduced" anything to anything. They're called "key points". 

Why do you think marketing works? Isn't it often the case that consumers don't need the product but they were manipulated into buying it? 

I'm sorry you don't like the truth, but this is how low-consciousness works. When you can't discern the truth of the marketing tactics, you are who they are designed for. They don't work well on people who can see through them. What I'm saying is, the masses cannot see through them. Go ahead and deny this to make your world more comfortable. 

We're talking about the same people who sweep Jan 6 under the rug. How can they do that? By not being able to tell truth from falsehood. They were told by Tucker Carlson Jan 6 was a peaceful protest. They cannot tell what is true and what isn't. Go ahead and deny this. 

Your unwillingness to acknowledge this truth points to a worldview that needs the masses to not be blind, or either a mind that itself, cannot discern what is true.

[Consept]

16 minutes ago, bambi said:

But this is everyone, you have to interpret this through the correct lens: the society and paradigm he grew up in.

There is no doubt about Trumps lack of integrity or selfishness, if thats your point. I agree he is way off the mark here

But beyond this issue (whcih affects pretty much all humans), he has natural affinity to the roles I mentioned.

No not exactly my point, my point t is let's even take Trumps name out of it. If say you had a business and someone came for one of the roles you mentioned, regardless of how charismatic they were, if you did research and found out that a lot of people they had previously worked with had been cheated by them or vowed never to work with them because of how they were treated. There is no way in hell you would hire them. It obviously wouldn't be smart to put someone in a position where they could rip you off as they have others. 

With Trump people have blinders on where they ignore his character even when it is pointed out by those who have been around him. Most humans do not rip off multiple people in their career. So the grace you give him, I guarantee you would not give in your real life, no one would, if that was the case ex-cons would have no problem getting employment, but they have an extremely tough time even if they're reformed