Is it really important and necessary to sleep with 20 girls?

[The Renaissance Man]

@Something Funny Thank you now I get your point better. Your main points were:

• No matter how many girls you approach, how successful you are with pickup, how much sex you have, you will still have the same low, conditional self-esteem and luck of self-love. It will never be enough. 
• There is no drug that will make you a great software engineer for example. All that is stopping you is fear and lack of confidence. So in other words, there's no need for pickup.

I actually agree with you on your first point, and on the fact that no drug can make you a great engineer. But I disagree on how you go about finding happiness (point 1) and getting good with girls (point 2).

Point 1: that's a matter of the whole pursuit of dating then, not pickup. The issue is when you become stuck in the endless rat race of never being satisfied with women, or money. Pickup is one of many ways of meeting women, and what drives you to meet them could be endless sex, or the pursuit of deep love. With making that point you're not actually critiquing the method.

Second point, as I also said, alcohol won't make you great at pickup. It will make you better, but not great, if you suck in the first place. A shy person will suck at public speaking. A shy person that has drank some alcohol (not wasted) will be better. A skilled person will be far better than both. Can we agree on that? Quite apparent. You can't claim that communication involves no skills involved, that's just false. So if you want to be great, and there are solid reason for that, and we're back to point 1, how would you go about doing that?

Second part of the second point: fear. Fear is a HUGE obstacle to overcome. Much harder than just sitting down for months to study engineering. Go tell a person with PTSD that he "just has to overcome his fear". Well, duh? Not saying it can't be done, but we have to acknowledge it's really hard. Also, experience is a great way to reduce fear and increase confidence.

Edited October 13 by The Renaissance Man

[Rasheed]

On 12/10/2024 at 5:55 PM, Leo Gura said:

That's not the real motivation.

The real motivation is personal growth. Or if you just enjoy it.

You're not gonna do 5000 approaches unless you enjoy the whole project.

You master golf if you love golf.

Guys who do well in game actually love going out, being out. Being out becomes more appealing than any girl.

Obviously that isn't for everyone. You don't have to go all the way to mastery. I didn't.

Can’t put it more correctly than that. And anyone who has experience in pickup will precisely understand what Leo is pointing towards

Vis-a-vis my question, I am still thinking about it—ain’t easy—plus, I want to do everything in a morally and ethically conscious fashion

 

[LordFall]

If I were you at 21 I would tryout a serious monogamous relationship and see how you like it. Have the expectation that it won't last though and then go out to the field and figure out a way to get maximum abundance. Plenty of men never go through the pickup journey and don't sleep with 20 girls and end up married just fine. Then we also have the 53% divorce rate and deadbedrooms for the % still in their marriage. 

Having said that though part of the issue is not just cold approach skill but how high value/in demand you are in general. There is no reason you can't work on your social status and social circle while still in a monogamous relationship. Just don't be the guy that isolates himself with a GF and comes out 3 years later with no social network, destroyed confidence and no options.

 

[Keryo Koffa]

On 10/10/2024 at 3:32 PM, Rasheed said:

Is it really important and necessary to sleep with 20 girls?

Well, if you sleep with 20 girls at once, that might transcend some dualities for sure.

[bambi]

On 10/10/2024 at 7:09 PM, Keryo Koffa said:

• 𝕊 = Shame (internal inadequacy)
• 𝕀 = Insistence (assertion of value as a response)
• 𝔹 = Bragging (outward compensation for insecurity)
• 𝕆 = Overcompensation (exaggeration of worth)
• 𝔽 = Fitting (desire to conform to societal standards)
• 𝕍ₑₓₜ = External value (social status, recognition)
• 𝕍ᵢₙₜ = Internal value (intrinsic self-worth)

These variables interact within a feedback loop that shapes self-worth (W). The equation of self-worth can be expressed as a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic factors, with the influence of shame and compensatory behaviors contributing to distortions.

𝕎 = (𝕍ᵢₙₜ + α𝕍ₑₓₜ) − (𝕊 + β𝕀 + γ𝔹 + δ𝕆) + ε𝔽

Breakdown of Terms:

• 𝕎 (Self-Worth) = Overall self-perception of value.
• 𝕍ᵢₙₜ (Intrinsic Value) = Core self-worth based on authentic internal qualities (e.g., values, integrity, emotional resilience).
• 𝕍ₑₓₜ = Value derived from social status, recognition, achievements (subject to social metrics).
  • α: The weight of external validation (higher if self-worth is overly dependent on social status).
• 𝕊 (Shame) = Internal sense of inadequacy or unworthiness.
• 𝕀 (Insistence) = Effort to assert or demand recognition of value, increasing as shame grows.
  • β: The degree to which insistence reduces or masks shame.
• 𝔹 (Bragging) = Expression of overinflated worth, driven by shame.
  • γ: The extent of distortion in self-worth due to bragging (can either inflate self-perception or reflect insecurity).
• 𝕆 (Overcompensation) = The degree to which an individual overstates their value to counteract shame.
  • δ: Amplifies the disconnection between intrinsic self-worth and the exaggerated projection of value.
• 𝔽 (Fitting) = The drive to conform to social standards or fit in. It can either elevate self-worth by enhancing social cohesion or lead to further disconnection from intrinsic value.
  • ε: Represents the influence of social conformity on the balance between external and internal self-worth.

Observations:

• High Shame (𝕊) increases the need for Insistence (𝕀), Bragging (𝔹), and Overcompensation (𝕆), which distorts self-worth by shifting the focus toward external validation.
• The balance between Intrinsic Value (𝕍ᵢₙₜ) and External Value (𝕍ₑₓₜ) determines the stability of self-worth. When external validation (𝕍ₑₓₜ) is overly weighted (high α), self-worth becomes fragile and more dependent on social metrics.
• The drive to Fit (𝔽) can either mitigate shame or exacerbate it, depending on whether it leads to genuine social connection or a superficial adherence to societal expectations.

 

I believe the model could benefit from further clarification, particularly on the core mechanics of shame. Shame is not simply internal inadequacy, but fundamentally rooted in self-rejection and the fear of disapproval or punishment. This leads to feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem/self-worth. To compensate, individuals often engage in self-aggrandizing, inflating their perceived worth externally as a direct response to their internal sense of lack.

Building true self-esteem, or intrinsic value, is a function of authenticity. Forgiveness, in turn, is a function of self-acceptance, helping diminish shame and stabilize self-worth. When one fully forgives themselves, they achieve total self-acceptance, which aligns true authenticity with maximal intrinsic value.

Key Components:

𝕊 (Shame): Internal sense of self-rejection and fear of disapproval, stemming from delusion.

𝕊𝔸 (Self-Aggrandizing): A compensatory mechanism where one inflates their worth in response to shame.

𝕊𝔼 (Self-Acceptance): The process of accepting oneself, which reduces shame and is tied to truth.

𝔽 (Forgiveness): A result of self-acceptance, enabling one to release shame and grow emotionally.

𝔸 (Authenticity): Living in alignment with one's true self, which strengthens intrinsic value.

𝕍ₑₓₜ (External Value): Value derived from external sources such as social recognition and status.

𝕍ᵢₙₜ (Intrinsic Value): The core of self-worth, grounded in authenticity.

𝕎 (Self-Worth): Overall self-perception, influenced by intrinsic value, external value, and self-acceptance.

𝔻 (Delusion/Falsehood): Living in a false reality or exaggerated self-perception, leading to shame and self-rejection.

𝕋 (Truth/Reality): Alignment with what is real and true, diminishing shame and leading to self-acceptance.

Revised Mathematical Model:

Shame (𝕊) arises from delusion (𝔻), driving self-aggrandizing behavior:

𝕊=λ⋅𝔻𝕊 = \lambda \cdot 𝔻S=λ⋅D

Where 𝔻 (Delusion) leads to self-rejection, increasing shame.

Self-Aggrandizing (𝕊𝔸) compensates for shame, especially when reliant on external validation (𝕍ₑₓₜ):

𝕊𝔸=α⋅𝕊=αλ𝔻𝕊𝔸 = \alpha \cdot 𝕊 = \alpha \lambda 𝔻SA=α⋅S=αλD

Intrinsic Value (𝕍ᵢₙₜ) is a function of authenticity (𝔸):

𝕍int=k⋅𝔸𝕍ᵢₙₜ = k \cdot 𝔸Vint=k⋅A

Where 𝔸 (Authenticity) drives the internal self-worth.

Forgiveness (𝔽) is now a function of self-acceptance (𝕊𝔼), meaning as self-acceptance grows, forgiveness naturally follows:

𝔽=f(𝕊𝔼)𝔽 = f(𝕊𝔼)F=f(SE)

Self-Acceptance (𝕊𝔼) reduces shame and is tied to truth/reality:

𝕊=1𝕋and𝕊𝔼=m⋅𝕋𝕊 = \frac{1}{𝕋} \quad \text{and} \quad 𝕊𝔼 = m \cdot 𝕋S=T1andSE=m⋅T

Where 𝕋 (Truth) diminishes shame and enhances self-acceptance.

Self-Worth (𝕎) incorporates intrinsic value, external validation, and self-acceptance:

𝕎=k⋅𝔸+𝕍extf(𝕊𝔼)𝕎 = k \cdot 𝔸 + \frac{𝕍ₑₓₜ}{f(𝕊𝔼)}W=k⋅A+f(SE)Vext

Key Insights:

Delusion (𝔻) drives shame and self-rejection, leading to compensatory behaviors like self-aggrandizing.

Authenticity (𝔸) strengthens intrinsic value, grounding self-worth in internal qualities rather than external validation.

Forgiveness (𝔽) grows as a function of self-acceptance (𝕊𝔼), which reduces shame and is linked to living in truth.

Pride is the compensation for low self esteem in all cases. Pride takes for the form in externalisation of being better than or superior then or worse then or less then, these are all covet pride.

 

[Keryo Koffa]

@bambi 👏

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

On 10/11/2024 at 8:44 PM, Princess Arabia said:

This is the key. Not doing approaches after approaches after approaches. Someone can approach once or twice and get results; but if the mindset is to do plenty of approaches before you can see results, the mind will sabotage itself and not expect any results until it does a certain amount of approaches to get the same result.

Like I said in my post. Getting laid is easier for women. Women don't have to approach 2000 men to get mediocre results. 

[Princess Arabia]

15 hours ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

Like I said in my post. Getting laid is easier for women. Women don't have to approach 2000 men to get mediocre results. 

It's not easier for women because women are pickier. We probably still go through 2000 approaches from guys to choose one. We're not approaching because we want to have sex with guys we actually like.

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's not easier for women because women are pickier. We probably still go through 2000 approaches from guys to choose one. We're not approaching because we want to have sex with guys we actually like.

Not even true. You women always have a boyfriend.  I've been social and still 6 years no girlfriend. My sister of course has a boyfriend. Wake.up to.reality. I bet you have a boyfriend or a "thing" with another man also. Just to prove my point.

Edited October 20 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's not easier for women because women are pickier. We probably still go through 2000 approaches from guys to choose one. We're not approaching because we want to have sex with guys we actually like.

You do not even go through 2000 approaches that is pure bullshit.. The many women I've encountered haven't even been approached by 30 men. They sleep with certain guys based on their mood. It is weird as hell.

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's not easier for women because women are pickier. We probably still go through 2000 approaches from guys to choose one. We're not approaching because we want to have sex with guys we actually like.

You are right. You get the CHOICE to PICK. How entitled...

[PenguinPablo]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:08 AM, Princess Arabia said:

Your AI robotic skills better be on point with batteries included and the heart monitor tuned into rejection mode 1on1 where it can be easily accessible and switch to being accepted mode to be able to recognize when someone is actually saying yes. 

Don't ask me to repeat because I have no idea what I just said. I'm still stunned by that 2000 number and how that must make one desensitized to women at that point - or even capable of having feelings for any.

That's like the pot calling the kettle black!

Also the average woman has much more experience than the average man... Hence the reverse is already true for women. Women are more desensitized to men than the reverse. 

It is through experience that men become desensitized.

This is something most men lack.

Women don't, unless they're total hermits.

Edited October 20 by PenguinPablo

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

Not even true. You women always have a boyfriend.  I've been social and still 6 years no girlfriend. My sister of course has a boyfriend. Wake.up to.reality. I bet you have a boyfriend or a "thing" with another man also. Just to prove my point.

I dont, and plenty of women don't. That's the problem with some of you guys. You will tell a female about herself and project your own beliefs, which are all false, unto them.

This conversation is actually pointless because I'm my own person with unique qualities and I'm speaking on my own behalf. Up to you to believe what I'm saying or not but you cannot tell me that what I'm saying about myself is not true. You will see a few females acting a certain way and then believe all women act the certain way. I have eradicated from my mind that all men act the same way because I'm wise enough to do so and not get caught up in the mind's charades and engage in limited thinking. The more I expand the mind is the more I experience expansion and not just be in my own little bubble with my self-deceiving thoughts. Enough said.

Edited October 20 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, PenguinPablo said:

That's like the pot calling the kettle black!

Also the average woman has much more experience than the average man... Hence the reverse is already true for women. Women are more desensitized to men than the reverse. 

It is through experience that men become desensitized.

This is something most men lack.

Women don't, unless they're total hermits.

This makes no sense. IOW, you're just calling the whole human population desensitized to each other. Whenever I see guys saying or thinking that, just because guys are always ready to have sex, are usually the ones having a hard time getting a gf VS females finding bfs and that it's easy for us to get laid and that we have more experience with men, I know you're clueless. 

Guys are just assuming shit. Where it doesn't even make sense at is that these women that you say are having more experience- who are they having these experiences with. Case closed. 

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

You are right. You get the CHOICE to PICK. How entitled...

Excuse me, it's not about being entitked.. Didn't you pick this forum. Didn't you pick your college, the place you work at, the foods you eat, etc why be sarcastic about the fact that we try to choose the men we sleep with in our personal lives. Men do too. You are putting men down when you insinuate that they don't get to choose. 

There are plenty of "sexfilled" men out there and you will continue to be sexless if you continue with these ridiculous mindsets. It's obvious you are or you wouldn't have these types of Rhetoric. 

Don't make women feel less than because they're not willing at all times to open their legs for every willing and able guy. There's no benefit to a woman for doing this. IT IS NOT BEING FUCKING ENTITLED TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHICH GUYS WE SLEEP WITH. It's called entitled to be able to have that entitlement. I'm through with this conversation before I get entangled up with some stupid incel ideological notion. 

Edited October 20 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

You do not even go through 2000 approaches that is pure bullshit.. The many women I've encountered haven't even been approached by 30 men. They sleep with certain guys based on their mood. It is weird as hell.

I only used that number because it was the number used in the conversation in question. You're right, it's probably 10,000. Don't tell me how many times I've been approached and it's not about being pretty or beautiful, it's just from being a female. Infact, guys approach less attractive women more than they do attractive ones for fear of being rejected. I'm  not caught up with these numbers literally because I'm not taking notes and putting down on paper how many times I've been approached. It's just as a female it's a part of the dating world. 

You guys have no clue what women experience on a daily basis qnd I'm not complaining about it but I'm just saying. Most of the times when I hear men talk about this stuff who are clueless, it's usually coming from their own line of thinking and their ideas about what they think women experience on a whole and how they approach things. This wouldn't happen as much if they would get out of their own heads, start to actually care about trying to understand women and stop thinking were the same, because were not - not in these contexts. You approach it from how you approach and see it, but not from how most women actually are. That's why you're having problems. Tge player actually cares, even when he doesn't care. They are actually smart enough to know how women think and are and that's from being suave in their approach and is not only thinking of himself in that moment but really asking women about themselves so he can add to his filing cabinet. Then after words, he moves on to the next and uses his information on the next until he gets good at it. Simply projecting your own ideas about this stuff and neglecting what the female is saying about herself and how she actually is, won't cut it. And don't believe it when guys tell you that we don't know, because we do, it's just we are not willing to always say everything and love to leave somethings to the imagination of the listener.

[Rasheed]

3 hours ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

Not even true. You women always have a boyfriend.  I've been social and still 6 years no girlfriend. My sister of course has a boyfriend. Wake.up to.reality. I bet you have a boyfriend or a "thing" with another man also. Just to prove my point.

I would advise you to approach, learn dating theory well, and you will get results. While removing any negative presuppositions and assumptions vis-vis women. Such beliefs won’t be helpful.

Of course, I haven’t said anything new and this is what Leo teaches himself, all the time

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

4 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I dont, and plenty of women don't. That's the problem with some of you guys. You will tell a female about herself and project your own beliefs, which are all false, unto them.

This conversation is actually pointless because I'm my own person with unique qualities and I'm speaking on my own behalf. Up to you to believe what I'm saying or not but you cannot tell me that what I'm saying about myself is not true. You will see a few females acting a certain way and then believe all women act the certain way. I have eradicated from my mind that all men act the same way because I'm wise enough to do so and not get caught up in the mind's charades and engage in limited thinking. The more I expand the mind is the more I experience expansion and not just be in my own little bubble with my self-deceiving thoughts. Enough said.

At the end of the day the majority of men can't even get 1 woman without studying, and building up skills. No woman ever has to study game theory or build up any skillsets. You simply exist and get laid or a boyfriend. That is how it works. 

 

Edited October 20 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

3 hours ago, Rasheed said:

I would advise you to approach, learn dating theory well, and you will get results. While removing any negative presuppositions and assumptions vis-vis women. Such beliefs won’t be helpful.

Of course, I haven’t said anything new and this is what Leo teaches himself, all the time

I have studied alot of theory. My favorite being Todd V.

I am quite good with women.

I live in upstate NY where approaching isn't that well tolerated. I must move tbh. Most people here get women based on social circle game. So I'm at a loss. 

Edited October 21 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

4 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I only used that number because it was the number used in the conversation in question. You're right, it's probably 10,000. Don't tell me how many times I've been approached and it's not about being pretty or beautiful, it's just from being a female. Infact, guys approach less attractive women more than they do attractive ones for fear of being rejected. I'm  not caught up with these numbers literally because I'm not taking notes and putting down on paper how many times I've been approached. It's just as a female it's a part of the dating world. 

You guys have no clue what women experience on a daily basis qnd I'm not complaining about it but I'm just saying. Most of the times when I hear men talk about this stuff who are clueless, it's usually coming from their own line of thinking and their ideas about what they think women experience on a whole and how they approach things. This wouldn't happen as much if they would get out of their own heads, start to actually care about trying to understand women and stop thinking were the same, because were not - not in these contexts. You approach it from how you approach and see it, but not from how most women actually are. That's why you're having problems. Tge player actually cares, even when he doesn't care. They are actually smart enough to know how women think and are and that's from being suave in their approach and is not only thinking of himself in that moment but really asking women about themselves so he can add to his filing cabinet. Then after words, he moves on to the next and uses his information on the next until he gets good at it. Simply projecting your own ideas about this stuff and neglecting what the female is saying about herself and how she actually is, won't cut it. And don't believe it when guys tell you that we don't know, because we do, it's just we are not willing to always say everything and love to leave somethings to the imagination of the listener.

 Not true. You simply exist and get men. That is the reality you cannot grasp as a female. Even when you aren't being social you still get men.