Thinking for yourself is overrated (at times)

[UpperMaster]

I suspect that there are serious limitations with the advice "think for yourself, don't take anything as dogma". In my life currently, I feel as though I know too little to make any conclusions with any major degree of certainty, and surrendering to "not knowing" is not practical and makes it difficult to move forward.

In addition to that, especially in the beginning (when focused on surviving), since you don't know anything about the world, the conclusions you form seem to heavily be affected by your emotions namely fear (personally happening to me) (which ironically leads you to become ideological). 

Another thing worth mentioning is that people that are less intelligent "think badly" and end up with poor conclusions, and so it is wise for them align themselves with semi conservative crowd as suggested my Jordan Peterson (I think this isn't bad advice). 

I'm very inclined to purposefully put faith into teachings from people who I intuit are good, so that I can actually move on in my life. I don't like being stuck and confused, I don't want to continue struggling to make decisions. My life recently has shown me that questioning everything and being anti-dogma is very difficult when your trying to survive and succeed, it's seems most appropriate to search for truth after you have some success surviving. 

 

What do you guys think? Is my thinking correct? Add more important thoughts? I appreciate it.

[Atb210201]

11 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

I suspect that there are serious limitations with the advice "think for yourself, don't take anything as dogma". In my life currently, I feel as though I know too little to make any conclusions with any major degree of certainty, and surrendering to "not knowing" is not practical and makes it difficult to move forward.

In addition to that, especially in the beginning (when focused on surviving), since you don't know anything about the world, the conclusions you form seem to heavily be affected by your emotions namely fear (personally happening to me) (which ironically leads you to become ideological). 

Another thing worth mentioning is that people that are less intelligent "think badly" and end up with poor conclusions, and so it is wise for them align themselves with semi conservative crowd as suggested my Jordan Peterson (I think this isn't bad advice). 

I'm very inclined to purposefully put faith into teachings from people who I intuit are good, so that I can actually move on in my life. I don't like being stuck and confused, I don't want to continue struggling to make decisions. My life recently has shown me that questioning everything and being anti-dogma is very difficult when your trying to survive and succeed, it's seems most appropriate to search for truth after you have some success surviving. 

 

What do you guys think? Is my thinking correct? Add more important thoughts? I appreciate it.

Being anti dogma paradoxically ultimately becomes a dogma itself if taken to the extreme.

Just be at ease with yourself and then others when it gets hard to be perfect in times.

Embrace imperfections and flaws when you no longer can be perfect and it's just bothering you and you can't seem to decide which way to go and you become so much indecisive and doubtful in the dilemmas of life.

Have faith that it (your life) will become the best it can in the end; you've come this far and you can also go further.

You can strive for perfection later again if you want.

 

Edited October 7 by Atb210201

[UpperMaster]

I totally forgot to mention another major issue with the "think for yourself" mindset. Leo suggests listening to different perspectives, thinking through each one, and selecting those that you can logically and experientially validate to fit into your overall view of reality. 

The problem is, there are so many perspectives to consider that it can feel overwhelming to process them all, especially when you don't have much life experience and are still young. At some point, I feel like obsessively trying to piece together a perfect model of reality can actually hold you back from making progress. At least, that's how it feels to me. I think I'll just commit to following one "mentor" for a time being then after I exhausted his teaching, go to another teacher.

 

This multi-perspective thing to me just seems overwhelming, and impractical to implement.

 

 

edit: I didn't articulate the post properly this is actually the main issue lol (I realize)

Edited October 7 by UpperMaster

[UpperMaster]

1 hour ago, Atb210201 said:

Being anti dogma paradoxically ultimately becomes a dogma itself if taken to the extreme.

 

I don’t believe that being anti-dogma turns into a dogma itself, but I do think it can make you indecisive at times, especially if you're still figuring things out, like I am. Being anti-dogma feels like trying to build your own boat while you're already in the water, instead of just climbing on someone else’s ready-made boat, at least for the time being. 

 

ps thanks for reply

Edited October 7 by UpperMaster

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

Is my thinking correct?

Problem right here. You don't trust yourself. You're even asking us to tell you what we think about your thinking.

I think you've misunderstood what thinking for yourself actually means. It doesn't mean to question everything; nor does it mean you have to listen or not listen and adhere to other's perspectives. It's merely suggesting, imo, that you not just go by what other's say, but to follow your inner guidance and to try and be analytical using your own logic and reasoning capabilities so this way, you train the mind to not just be a follower but to be able to recognize and put in place what's more suitable for your life's circumstances and not for the majority.

We all have different learning styles too; and personally, I like to get information from various sources so I have things to compare other things to. This is coming from a place where I love to have options. If I were to just follow one person's teaching style, I feel I would start to become that person (to a degree) and not have a mind of my own. To me, that leads to idolatry and impersonation and a loss of personal identity.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7 by Princess Arabia

[Ero]

Questioning everything does not mean you have to reinvent the wheel, rather that you will know when a wing or a sail is needed.

[UpperMaster]

10 hours ago, Ero said:

Questioning everything does not mean you have to reinvent the wheel, rather that you will know when a wing or a sail is needed.

When do you know?  Is it intuition 

[UpperMaster]

11 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I think you've misunderstood what thinking for yourself actually means. It doesn't mean to question everything; nor does it mean you have to listen or not listen and adhere to other's perspectives. It's merely suggesting, imo, that you not just go by what other's say, but to follow your inner guidance and to try and be analytical using your own logic and reasoning capabilities so this way, you train the mind to not just be a follower but to be able to recognize and put in place what's more suitable for your life's circumstances and not for the majority.

 

 

Yea but everyone does that anyway. You're basically saying (if I understand correctly) that everyone has their own way of learning and you should follow your intuition. Most people just follow intuition and what they feel will be good for them. Most people still end up retarded. 

 

Edited October 8 by UpperMaster

[UpperMaster]

11 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Problem right here. You don't trust yourself

Yes I don't. Why should I. I become mega ideological and make bad decisions because Im scared.

[Scholar]

15 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

I suspect that there are serious limitations with the advice "think for yourself, don't take anything as dogma". In my life currently, I feel as though I know too little to make any conclusions with any major degree of certainty, and surrendering to "not knowing" is not practical and makes it difficult to move forward.

In addition to that, especially in the beginning (when focused on surviving), since you don't know anything about the world, the conclusions you form seem to heavily be affected by your emotions namely fear (personally happening to me) (which ironically leads you to become ideological). 

Another thing worth mentioning is that people that are less intelligent "think badly" and end up with poor conclusions, and so it is wise for them align themselves with semi conservative crowd as suggested my Jordan Peterson (I think this isn't bad advice). 

I'm very inclined to purposefully put faith into teachings from people who I intuit are good, so that I can actually move on in my life. I don't like being stuck and confused, I don't want to continue struggling to make decisions. My life recently has shown me that questioning everything and being anti-dogma is very difficult when your trying to survive and succeed, it's seems most appropriate to search for truth after you have some success surviving. 

 

What do you guys think? Is my thinking correct? Add more important thoughts? I appreciate it.

You are pointing to something important, and in essence why ideology exists in societies.

 

Most people lack the capacities or skills to navigate the uncertain epistemic and moral landscape that would need to be navigated if you were to fully decouple yourself from contemporary ideologies. 

Ideologies serve a few functions in human society, but mostly: They give individuals something they can orient themselves towards (a value hierarchy), a shared understnading of the world. 

The more you decouple yourself from society, you will notice the more challenging it becomes to orient yourself towards something and to navigate the world in general. Morality is an easy example:

It is much easier to just real a religious text and be given instructions for what is important in life and how to achieve it, rather than work from first principles and rational consistency. People are highly biased and lack reasoning skills, so if you give them "free reign" in regards to their orientation in life, many of them will mess it up terribly. Often they will not improve on the ideology, and rather just embrace more and more of their own biases, until they are so lost they will become highly susceptible to be captured by a new ideology.

 

And in the end it's just easier to go along with whatever society has prepared for you in terms of ideology. You will be in line with most people and therefore reduce social friction, and you will not run risk of stumbling into a dangerous aspect of the unknown.

That is what you do when you let go of societal ideology. You open yourself to the unknown, and traversing the unknown is very dangerous. It requires significant sophistication to be able to do that on your own, the further you venture, the more difficult and dangerous it becomes.

 

In the end, exploring the unknown is a collective process. A lot of people have already thought about many of the things you will come to conclude to yourself, so it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel.

[Staples]

The only person that can know what's best for you, is you.

Never outsource that to someone else.

[Davino]

@UpperMaster I once had to complete an important university project that involved designing my own algorithm. My goal was to "think independently from the ground up" and contribute something novel and creative. However, the project turned out to be fairly mediocre; I didn't even approach the current state of the art. I felt embarrassed for not dedicating enough time to study the intelligent work of those who had already tackled similar problems. It was a humbling lesson for my ego.

[gettoefl]

5 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

 

Yea but everyone does that anyway. You're basically saying (if I understand correctly) that everyone has their own way of learning and you should follow your intuition. Most people just follow intuition and what they feel will be good for them. Most people still end up retarded. 

 

I think there's a difference between being a learner and being a follower

Follow cautiously, learn widely

Following is passive and learning is active

To follow limits your potential and to learn maximises your intellect

The key for me is to engage in plenty of contemplation, introspection and meditation

These help to solidify one's own beliefs and explore other's claims

I suggest regularly take notes and write summaries of things you are discovering

You only know what you are able to explain

and if you can't explain it simply in words, you are deluding yourself in what you know

Personally I strive to know as little as possible and to stay innocently open to everything

Having said that, over time I won't suffer fools but I do give them my respect and good will

 

Edited October 8 by gettoefl

[UpperMaster]

3 hours ago, gettoefl said:

Follow cautiously, learn widely

Following is passive and learning is active

To follow limits your potential and to learn maximises your intellect

 

W response. 

[UpperMaster]

16 hours ago, Scholar said:

You are pointing to something important, and in essence why ideology exists in societies.

 

Most people lack the capacities or skills to navigate the uncertain epistemic and moral landscape that would need to be navigated if you were to fully decouple yourself from contemporary ideologies. 

Ideologies serve a few functions in human society, but mostly: They give individuals something they can orient themselves towards (a value hierarchy), a shared understnading of the world. 

The more you decouple yourself from society, you will notice the more challenging it becomes to orient yourself towards something and to navigate the world in general. Morality is an easy example:

It is much easier to just real a religious text and be given instructions for what is important in life and how to achieve it, rather than work from first principles and rational consistency. People are highly biased and lack reasoning skills, so if you give them "free reign" in regards to their orientation in life, many of them will mess it up terribly. Often they will not improve on the ideology, and rather just embrace more and more of their own biases, until they are so lost they will become highly susceptible to be captured by a new ideology.

 

And in the end it's just easier to go along with whatever society has prepared for you in terms of ideology. You will be in line with most people and therefore reduce social friction, and you will not run risk of stumbling into a dangerous aspect of the unknown.

That is what you do when you let go of societal ideology. You open yourself to the unknown, and traversing the unknown is very dangerous. It requires significant sophistication to be able to do that on your own, the further you venture, the more difficult and dangerous it becomes.

 

In the end, exploring the unknown is a collective process. A lot of people have already thought about many of the things you will come to conclude to yourself, so it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel.

 great response! I completely agree with everything you said.

I just have one question: You mentioned that it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel. In your own life, do you tend to think for yourself more, or do you find yourself absorbing the teachings of others more often?

Additionally, when do you think it's best to rely solely on your own thoughts and perspectives?

 

 

[Princess Arabia]

12 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

Additionally, when do you think it's best to rely solely on your own thoughts and perspectives?

Ironically, no thoughts or perspectives is entirely one's own. How do you think you were able to agree with everything he said. They were also your thoughts and perspectives.

[Scholar]

On 9.10.2024 at 4:24 AM, UpperMaster said:

 great response! I completely agree with everything you said.

I just have one question: You mentioned that it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel. In your own life, do you tend to think for yourself more, or do you find yourself absorbing the teachings of others more often?

Additionally, when do you think it's best to rely solely on your own thoughts and perspectives?

 

 

I'd say it is a mixture of both, but I enjoy reinventing the wheel in many ways. I'm a very independent thinker, I enjoy thinking, enjoy exploring ideas, checking things for consistencies, finding holes in perspectives, etc.

In general I probably am more so thinking for myself, simply because I enjoy the process more, even if it might be less efficient overall.

 

It's a trick question. It's always best if you have a thorough understanding of the common positions first. For example if you want to master a certain skill, learn the fundamentals first and then explore your own kind of ways of looking at things.

For things like ethics it is a bit of a longer process. You should strive to understand yourself as well as possible and be clear about any biases you have. Challenging a norm requires you to understand why that norm is held and the reasons why society holds onto it. When you go contrary to a position that is commonly held you need to do your homework and have a thorough understanding of it, and seek out limitations to your own perspective.

 

 

But in the end it's all difficult to put into words. You have to strive for truth, refine your intuitions, make predictions and test them, and so forth. Self deception is the biggest enemy here, but I'm pretty sure Leo made some indepth videos about this.

[UpperMaster]

@Princess Arabia  

Surely, every idea I have is partly a repetition of something I've heard before. What I meant to ask is, when do you rely on your own logical reasoning?

I also read your response again, but I don’t quite understand what you mean by "inner guidance." It seems like any thought could be labeled as inner guidance. You and Leo talk about intuition and inner guidance as if they are real, but to me, it just feels like emotion. That same inner guidance could tell me something completely different tomorrow.

 

Also I appreciate your responses, you responded to a lot of threads, and you write well. Thanks. 

[UpperMaster]

@Scholar Yes I agree, self-deception is a bitch. I am becoming aware of that more and more.

[ChrisZoZo]

On 07/10/2024 at 6:51 PM, UpperMaster said:

My life recently has shown me that questioning everything and being anti-dogma is very difficult when your trying to survive and succeed

Do it an enjoyable way u can get far by not working things out. Or at least find how you make it unenjoyable. Is your thinking, impulsive/neurotic probably need to meditate a bit.