Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Ero said:

They would have invaded Ukraine regardless of NATO

That's very hard to say. Maybe. But also maybe Putin was cornered into it because he does feel threatened by Western influence. Hillary's policy was basically regime change against Putin. Of course he would be paranoid of Western neoliberal influence at his border.

[zazen]

On 10/8/2024 at 1:06 PM, zazen said:

Seems like the ethnic cleansing and dispossession will continue as this very well put together video indicates what looks like a West Bank 2.0 in the making : 

New buffer zones created in Gaza by dividing it into fractured blocks to be monitored via check points stationed in multiple corridors. So instead of occupying it from outside, they will occupy it from within.

Any Hamas fighters or ''resistance'' to this dystopia that pops up from the tunnels will be stamped out like a game of whack a mole as the IDF will be watching like hawks over it.

This isn't a solution, only a escalation of a already intolerable reality. We've seen how Israel has exercised their power in the West Bank - they've done nothing except abuse it with settlement expansion. The precedent is set, the reality will be copy and pasted onto Gaza. All this done in the 21st century, backed by the West. 

 

21 hours ago, hundreth said:

This may be a cynical viewpoint, but the current status quo is destroying both Israel and the Palestinians.

Israel on it's current course is destroying both the Palestinians and their international standing, well being, and future. It will take at least a generation before this reality results in tangible consequences. By that time, Gaza will be unlivable and the West Bank will be further expanded on and hopes for a two state solution will be dead. 

@hundreth The video above covers exactly what you outline. Sadly, I also see that as the most possible outcome. Just imagine, the anger of the people Israel will have to preside over in this occupation of Gaza - the parents and relatives of over 15'000 killed children. We are banking on the Palestinians transcending their loss and suffering to make peace with the same Israelis who killed their loved ones and will still be occupying them except more closely.  The instinct of revenge is so relatable to the human experience that the revenge arc makes many movies famous  - Kill Bill, John Whick, Revenant, Gladiator.  As if the Palestinians aren't going to resist their new reality, as if some of them aren't going to exact revenge.

It seems Israel and its backers can't stop because stopping would mean reckoning with what they've done, rather than obfuscate their crimes which the world has clearly witnessed by continuously opening new fronts of war and being provocative. Israel and the US are almost in a death spiral they can't get out of, a blood soaked ponzi scheme.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hillary's policy was basically regime change against Putin.

Where did she advocate for this and how do you know this?

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

@hundreth The video above covers exactly what you outline. Sadly, I also see that as the most possible outcome. Just imagine, the anger of the people Israel will have to preside over in this occupation of Gaza - the parents and relatives of over 15'000 killed children. We are banking on the Palestinians transcending their loss and suffering to make peace with the same Israelis who killed their loved ones and will still be occupying them except more closely.  The instinct of revenge is so relatable to the human experience that the revenge arc makes many movies famous  - Kill Bill, John Whick, Revenant, Gladiator.  As if the Palestinians aren't going to resist their new reality, as if some of them aren't going to exact revenge.

It seems Israel and its backers can't stop because stopping would mean reckoning with what they've done, rather than obfuscate their crimes which the world has clearly witnessed by continuously opening new fronts of war and being provocative. Israel and the US are almost in a death spiral they can't get out of, a blood soaked ponzi scheme.

I watched that and agree.

I wonder how many lives will be lost in the name of Israeli expansionist policies. Yet I also wonder, how many lives will be lost in the name of justice? A quest for revenge and justice can be self destructive. There are many instances in our own lives where we must experience a loss and move on for our own well being. This has happened to me in scorned relationships, business partnerships, etc. If I were to go on a quest of revenge, I would harm myself in the process. 

Israel will have to face its own karma for its actions. This will likely be in the form of the nation being run by far right extremists, war hawks, and religious fundamentalists who drag down the culture and prosperity of the nation. 

Watching the video Leo posted about the origins of Zionism was very interesting because it really highlighted just how rooted it is in anti-semitism. This idea that Jews can never assimilate into another nation, and this was adopted and utilized by both Christians and Jews to advance this. In a response to anti-semitism, Herzl commented that "might makes right" - and this is the policy we still adopt to this day.

Quote

We have honestly endeavored everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to preserve the faith of our fathers. We are not permitted to do so. In vain are we loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow-citizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries we are still cried down as strangers, and often by those whose ancestors were not yet domiciled in the land where Jews had already had experience of suffering. The majority may decide which are the strangers; for this, as indeed every point which arises in the relations between nations, is a question of might. I do not here surrender any portion of our prescriptive right, when I make this statement merely in my own name as an individual. In the world as it now is and for an indefinite period will probably remain, might precedes right. It is useless, therefore, for us to be loyal patriots, as were the Huguenots who were forced to emigrate. If we could only be left in peace....

- Theodor Herzl

 

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Where did she advocate for this and how do you know this?

I don't have a source but I'm pretty sure she was quite open about it, in interviews and such. Just like how now the US is open about wanting regime change in Iran.

Putin has a video tape of Gadaffi's death and he replays it to himself every so often to remind himself of what American's wanna do to him.

This is not a game for Putin. His life is on the line every day. If he slips up he knows Americans will coup him. American politicians can afford to screw around, Putin cannot.

Edited October 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

Here you go:

https://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/

[zazen]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

American politicians can afford to screw around, Putin cannot.

This is a under appreciated factor in what influences the psychology behind US foreign policy and by extension what influences Israel. The geopolitical insulation of the US gives it the unique position to be violent and commit violence across the world - and suffer little consequence for it, at least in the short-medium term.

This attitude and sense of superiority rubs off on and only amplifies any existing sense of trauma induced entitlement Israel has, which becomes a moral hazard to them. The combination of impunity, arrogance and being hypersensitive (due to historic trauma) to threats that are amplified is what we're seeing. 

Neocons don't appreciate the gravity of violence, which means they can't appreciate the value of peace. Watch the following from 3:50sec - Wesley Clark talking about the neocons desire to destabilise and dominate the Middle East.

The Clean Break report, a policy document prepared in 1996 by a study group led by Richard Perle and Benjamin Netanyahu is quite a eye opener to everything we have seen transpire and are seeing today. Richard Perle served in the Bush administration and is now notoriously known to have architected the Iraq war. This is why Israel and the US work in unison, using each other for plausible deniability and to achieve their outcomes of domination.

The same attitude but in different latitudes that drives this whole shit show is that of domination.

Edited October 11 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

This attitude and sense of superiority rubs off on and only amplifies any existing sense of trauma induced entitlement Israel has, which becomes a moral hazard to them. The combination of impunity, arrogance and being hypersensitive (due to historic trauma) to threats that are amplified is what we're seeing. 

Neocons don't appreciate the gravity of violence, which means they can't appreciate the value of peace. Watch the following from 3:50sec - Wesley Clarks talking about the neocons desire to destabilise and dominate the Middle East.

Of course I know that about the Americans.

But then again, it's not like Putin appreciates peace. He had no qualms sending 300,000 Russian boys to the slaughter.

Edited October 11 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course I know that about the Americans.

But then again, it's not like Putin appreciates peace. He had no qualms sending 300,000 Russian boys to the slaughter.

According to Sachs Russia has pursued peace and cooperation with the West despite the West continuously crossing its lines. The act of invading Ukraine was the moral quagmire I had mentioned on the other thread - that I sympathised more with Russia than with Israel though they both visibly have transgressed.

But then when looked at with context, it seems Russia goes to war more out of necessity (due to provocation from the West as you've rightly pointed out) whilst the West goes to war just looking for the next one to perpetuate their hegemony and war economy.

''Provocations work in the shadows, manipulating circumstances without crossing overt lines. They give those that do the provoking plausible deniability while creating conditions that almost guarantee an eventual reaction from the cornered party that they can then paint as the villain.''

I won't derail the thread further with the topic.

Edited October 11 by zazen

[Ero]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Here you go:

https://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/

Thing is, the conflict in Ukraine has been going on since before Hillary said anything. The article correctly points out the protests against Putin as the decidable shift in his politics - from economic to fearmongering and imperialism. Russia has been sponsoring Donbas insurrectionists since 2012-2013 and later engaged in all out war (Donbas War 2014):

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know
 

The truth is, Russians view Ukraine as a “rightful part” of their land. This is what Putin was blabbering to Tucker Carlson about “Kievska Rus”. The “Russia vs. NATO” is just part of the mythology, aligning Russia as part of the new “multipolar” thesis of geopolitics along the likes of China, Iran and North Korea. 

This is another example of his stated aim back in 2011 - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/05/we-knew-putin-would-attack-ukraine-back-in-2011-says-bill-clinton

Edited October 11 by Ero

[Gennadiy1981]

8 hours ago, Soullee said:

 

Israel's Actions Justified & You are all wrong. Logic stands with Israel, according to this guy.

Thank you, that’s actually a stage tier 2 thinking. Very smart and very well placed. Thank you for sharing such deep thinking video.

I see comments and still people react negatively, at this point it’s just a personal bias against Israel and nothing else. They will only be happy once Israel will be gone. But thanks God we are her to stay and unfortunately for everyone else, they would have to make more of those threads and wine and complain and etc. 

For all of you who claim to be awakened, switch to more profound topics and connecting with a divinity, this political bias nonsense wil only drag you down to very primitive development and will not let your mind expand.

[hundreth]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Very shallow.

No understanding of ethnic cleansing, no understanding of terrorism, no understanding of Zionist settlement expansion, no understanding of military industrial complex, no understanding of self-bias, no understanding of war crimes and international law, no understanding of propaganda, no historical context, no understanding of ongoing Zionist oppression, no understanding of Zionist genocidal rhetoric, no understanding of failed peace agreements, no understanding of the Irsaeli far-right and Netanyahu, no understanding of Israel lobby and manipulation of the West, zero responsibility for creation of terrorism, false analogy to Mexico, no understanding of 9/11, no understanding of how IDF counts casualty numbers, no mention of occupation, no mention of the status of a Palestinian state.

And yet, everything he said is also true. Which makes it especially toxic.

This is amazingly insightful, but shows how hopeless the situation is. At the end of the day neither side will accept a two state solution and this is a war between two people who believe the land is theirs.

[martins name]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's very hard to say. Maybe. But also maybe Putin was cornered into it because he does feel threatened by Western influence. Hillary's policy was basically regime change against Putin. Of course he would be paranoid of Western neoliberal influence at his border.

There is some truth to this but Putin has taken this belief to an Alex Jones level. He believes that the whole arab spring was puppeteered by the US deep-state, the same thing with the Maidan revolution in Ukraine. The absolute crackpots that originated this conspiracy should give you a clue to their validity: William Engdahl, who was an employee and a disciple of Lyndon Larouche. I can't empisis enough that Putin and his actions can't be understood without understanding this conspiracy. This video explains it:
https://youtu.be/7OFyn_KSy80?si=eVZJYrYp22D0QYJA
It's long and dense but worth it. 

The Obama administration broke from the Bush doctrine vis-a-vis Russia in that Bush sought to expand NATO while Obama did the appeasement that the likes of Maersheimer recommended. 

In the article you sent it says:

Quote

She set the tone for certain actors inside the country; she gave the signal,” Putin said of Clinton at the time, accusing her of ordering the opposition movement into action like some kind of revolutionary sleeper cell. “They heard this signal and, with the support of the U.S. State Department, started actively doing their work.

Look at this with skeptical eyes. Does Hillary Clinton control the oligarchs? Russian media is heavily controlled by the regime so how would the US "deep state" control it and the population? Such an influence campaign would have left big footmarks, but there are none, just a ghost that leaves no trace and controls everything that is against Putin. It's paranoid schitzo shit.
 

 

[Nivsch]

12 hours ago, Soullee said:

 

I think you guys are dismissimg the video in an overly broad manner. He has some valid points:

1. Some of the most significant countries in the world have been created in similarly problematic ways, and almost every country has required some degree of forceful conquest for its establishment.

2. hamas does not respond to 1967 occupation but almost entirely to the very existence of Israel. What strenghtens this assumption is the fact that each time the negotiations between Israel and Palestine have approached a breakthrough, there has been a significant increase in terror activities inside Israel. They don't want an agreement based on 1967 lines. You can verify it yourself.

3. The ratio between civilians and combatants he mentioned is right, and it is still far lower than the ratio in any other war of western militaries against guerilla.

Edited October 11 by Nivsch

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

3. The ratio between civilians and combatants he mentioned is right, and it is still far lower than the ratio in any other war of western militaries against guerilla.

No it isn’t. It’s based on the IDF’s claimed number of hamas killed which is nonsense, if hamas actually lost that many they couldn’t still be active, and IDF already leaked to the media they count anyone killed in kill zones as hamas which means they are surely counting civilians.

Analysis looking at the confirmed deaths compared to the civilian to combatant ratios in past Gaza wars indicate Israel is killing at least 3 civilians per 1 combatant, which is a horrible ratio, the US killed 2.5 combatants to 1 civilian in Afghanistan.

Its also probably much worse as it doesn’t count thousands of unconfirmed deaths that are just listed as missing.

Edited October 12 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

What's also missed is not just lives lost, but the destruction of infrastructure. Gaza has been made unlivable. It's a genocidal level of civil infrastructure destruction. And it was done deliberately.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[Ero]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What's also missed is not just lives lost, but the destruction of infrastructure. Gaza has been made unlivable. It's a genocidal level of civil infrastructure destruction. And it was done deliberately.

NYT had a visual piece 4 days ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-destruction-hamas-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Ero said:

NYT had a visual piece 4 days ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-destruction-hamas-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

It's fuckin crazy.

[Ero]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's fuckin crazy.

Israel has quite literally dug itself a crater it can’t get out of.

It is a tragedy. Even more so because I do not see it getting solved any time in the near future. This is why I have removed myself from the debate entirely. There is absolutely nothing we can do as long as this is working in the security machine’s interest.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Ero said:

Israel has quite literally dug itself a crater it can’t get out of.

They created exactly what they wanted.