Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes and without doubt both are right. But what a human should want, to look to the future or to the past? To face the risk of the unknown or to cling to a static tradition? One of the two lives, even if that life leads to destruction. The other is dead in life, trapped in a mental corset with which he oppresses himself and which prevents him from evolving. Perhaps he is more efficient, he reproduces more, but he is trapped. Human beings must look to the future, open their minds and hearts. This is difficult because there is so much conflict, selfishness and greed. Perhaps it is impossible but we must try, otherwise we would rather disappear as a species. Total destruction is preferable to stagnation, because humans are suffering beings. Who wants this? Preserve what? The lie, oppression and fear? Better to die. 

Anyway it's just an opinion, of course 

This is why the younger generations will probably be the ones to fix this conflict. The young Israelis didn't suffer the holocaust so they don't have that trauma and can't blame the past and the younger Palestinians saw their grandparents and parents suffer for decades so they just want peace even if it means getting the lesser end of the deal

[Yimpa]

Kid Rock: “I’m a peaceful man.”

Also Kid Rock:

 

[Topspin715]

26 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

This is why the younger generations will probably be the ones to fix this conflict. The young Israelis didn't suffer the holocaust so they don't have that trauma and can't blame the past and the younger Palestinians saw their grandparents and parents suffer for decades so they just want peace even if it means getting the lesser end of the deal

Trauma can pass through many generations via different mechanisms so all Jews today suffer from some kind of Holocaust trauma but the further we get, there is hope.  I remember learning about the Holocaust when I was 5 years old and it was shocking to me.  It takes decades to figure out how something like that can happen and most never come to terms with it.

With peace will come shared prosperity and restored dignity so it's hard to get the lesser end of a true peace deal.  It's just that nobody has figured out how to do it yet.

Edited yesterday at 02:10 AM by Topspin715

[Twentyfirst]

11 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

Trauma can pass through many generations via different mechanisms so all Jews today suffer from some kind of Holocaust trauma but the further we get, there is hope.  I remember learning about the Holocaust when I was 5 years old and it was shocking to me.  It takes decades to figure out how something like that can happen and most never come to terms with it.

With peace will come shared prosperity and restored dignity so it's hard to get the lesser end of a true peace deal.  It's just that nobody has figured out how to do it yet.

Then all Palestinians today even the ones born outside are also suffering trauma 

[Twentyfirst]

 

Admittance of some members of the government purposely stopping any prior hostage deal even though they claimed they were doing their best to stop the war

[Topspin715]

5 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Then all Palestinians today even the ones born outside are also suffering trauma 

Yes that is true

[Topspin715]

5 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

 

Admittance of some members of the government purposely stopping any prior hostage deal even though they claimed they were doing their best to stop the war

Ben Gvir is the leader of the Otzma Yehudit political party (Hebrew: עָצְמָה יְהוּדִית, lit. 'Jewish Power') which is a far-right, ultra-nationalist, Kahanist, and anti-Arab political party in Israel (from wikipedia). It is the ideological descendant of the outlawed Kach party.  His party has 6 out of 120 seats in the Knesset so he is a very small fringe political leader, but it sometimes doesn't take much representation in a democracy to wield a lot of power if you are aggressive and know how to do it.  Ben Gvir is a religious Zionist (nationalist) which is maybe the Jewish equivalent of an Islamist.  The vast majority of Jews, or people who identify as Jews, do not share his views and beliefs, but he gets a lot of media coverage for being so extreme.  He is threatening to resign if the hostage deal goes through, I don't know yet if that's a bluff or an actual threat.  Israel's Knesset is a parliamentary system so if enough people vote to dissolve the government, they can do that.

Regarding the idea of the hostage exchange, Israel will be releasing 1,000 Palestinians for about 30 Israeli hostages.  Some of the Palestinians, I am not sure how many, are being held under administrative detention without due process or formal charges.  Some of them are probably legitimate terrorist threats.

Yahya Sinwar, the now deceased former leader of Hamas and alleged mastermind of the October 7th attack, was previously released from Israeli prison in a hostage exchange in 2011 in a prisoner exchange where Israel released 1,026 Palestinian prisoners for a single Israel soldier, Gilad Shalit.  Yahya Sinawar was sentenced to four life sentences in Israeli prison in 1989 for the murder of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians.

These decisions are not simple.  A near term cease fire agreement is good, but if Israel releases another terrorist mastermind, they might pay for it very badly at some point down the line.

I'm trying to be objective about this to stimulate constructive conversation so these are the facts as I see them regarding the recent hostage deal.

Edited 17 hours ago by Topspin715

[Lyubov]

17 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Kid Rock: “I’m a peaceful man.”

Also Kid Rock:

 

Just listening to kid rock you can tell how dumb he is  bro is so stupid. And our system lets these people vote 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Just listening to kid rock you can tell how dumb he is  bro is so stupid. And our system lets these people vote 

The real problem is not that he votes, but that our system platforms him to tens of millions of impressionable people as if his view has any import.

Rogan has become a platform for toxic levels of celebrity ignorance. As long as they are famous enough and friendly enough with Rogan they can go on there and say whatever nonsense they want and get praise for it.

Edited 17 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

The vast majority of Jews, or people who identify as Jews, do not share his views and beliefs, but he gets a lot of media coverage for being so extreme.

I can testify from what I see and hear here that this is true.

[Raze]

 

 

 

[Raze]

https://www.propublica.org/article/biden-blinken-state-department-israel-gaza-human-rights-horrors?

Summary: https://x.com/BrettMmurphy/status/1879639764376461374

Quote

A Year of Empty Threats and a “Smokescreen” Policy: How the State Department Let Israel Get Away With Horrors in Gaza

 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Raze

[Topspin715]

Rabbi Manis Friedman (full name: Menachem Manis HaKohen Friedman; Hebrew: מנחם מניס הכהן פרידמן; born 1946) is a Hassid, rabbi, author, social philosopher and public speaker.  He was inspired by the Lubavitcher Rebbe in the 1970s, the former leader of the Lubavitch Hasidic dynasty.  He is an ultra-orthodox fundamentalist but not a political zionist like Ben Gvir.

Here he argues that it is a moral wrong to negotiate with terrorists for political gain.  This is an oversimplification of what is going on here but would be curious to hear anybody's thoughts on this in an abstract sense that doesn't pertain specifically to the current conflict.

I don't necessarily agree with him that it is always wrong to "negotiate with terrorists".  Who is considered a terrorist and who isn't is a deeply political and not clear cut matter.

The majority of Western countries (see in red below) officially recognize Hamas to be a terrorist organization but the majority of the rest of the world does not.

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

Ben Gvir is the leader of the Otzma Yehudit political party (Hebrew: עָצְמָה יְהוּדִית, lit. 'Jewish Power') which is a far-right, ultra-nationalist, Kahanist, and anti-Arab political party in Israel (from wikipedia). It is the ideological descendant of the outlawed Kach party.  His party has 6 out of 120 seats in the Knesset so he is a very small fringe political leader, but it sometimes doesn't take much representation in a democracy to wield a lot of power if you are aggressive and know how to do it.  Ben Gvir is a religious Zionist (nationalist) which is maybe the Jewish equivalent of an Islamist.  The vast majority of Jews, or people who identify as Jews, do not share his views and beliefs, but he gets a lot of media coverage for being so extreme.  He is threatening to resign if the hostage deal goes through, I don't know yet if that's a bluff or an actual threat.  Israel's Knesset is a parliamentary system so if enough people vote to dissolve the government, they can do that.

Regarding the idea of the hostage exchange, Israel will be releasing 1,000 Palestinians for about 30 Israeli hostages.  Some of the Palestinians, I am not sure how many, are being held under administrative detention without due process or formal charges.  Some of them are probably legitimate terrorist threats.

Yahya Sinwar, the now deceased former leader of Hamas and alleged mastermind of the October 7th attack, was previously released from Israeli prison in a hostage exchange in 2011 in a prisoner exchange where Israel released 1,026 Palestinian prisoners for a single Israel soldier, Gilad Shalit.  Yahya Sinawar was sentenced to four life sentences in Israeli prison in 1989 for the murder of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians.

These decisions are not simple.  A near term cease fire agreement is good, but if Israel releases another terrorist mastermind, they might pay for it very badly at some point down the line.

I'm trying to be objective about this to stimulate constructive conversation so these are the facts as I see them regarding the recent hostage deal.

I never said that other Israelis agree with him. Or that the deal is unfair to Israel. I simply said that this is proof of him ADMITTING that he was blocking the deal even though they made the world seem like they were striving for peace 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Topspin715]

48 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

I never said that other Israelis agree with him. Or that the deal is unfair to Israel. I simply said that this is proof of him ADMITTING that he was blocking the deal even though they made the world seem like they were striving for peace 

What do you mean when you say "they"?

When you use ambiguous and generalized words like that, there will always be exceptions.  The fact that a single person holds a single viewpoint, does not mean that he represents the views of all Israelis or Jews or Zionists.  It's not hard to cherry pick one opinion that looks bad and ascribe it to the whole group.  In many cases, that's a source of anti-semitism.  But even still, man times, anti-seymitism is just based on pure lies and untruths.

[Twentyfirst]

21 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

What do you mean when you say "they"?

When you use ambiguous and generalized words like that, there will always be exceptions.  The fact that a single person holds a single viewpoint, does not mean that he represents the views of all Israelis or Jews or Zionists.  It's not hard to cherry pick one opinion that looks bad and ascribe it to the whole group.  In many cases, that's a source of anti-semitism.  But even still, man times, anti-seymitism is just based on pure lies and untruths.

Chill with the anti semitism. Really nobody cares about Jews in the way you think that they do. Nobody wakes up and hates Jews just because they are Jewish except the Germans of course haha

By they I mean the government that Ben Gvir is in. Maybe there was a battle within the government and he used shady tactics to stall the deal. I think other members of the government resigned for this reason probably. Lets see what truths come out from other members or journalists in the near future 

[Topspin715]

24 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Chill with the anti semitism. Really nobody cares about Jews in the way you think that they do. Nobody wakes up and hates Jews just because they are Jewish except the Germans of course haha

By they I mean the government that Ben Gvir is in. Maybe there was a battle within the government and he used shady tactics to stall the deal. I think other members of the government resigned for this reason probably. Lets see what truths come out from other members or journalists in the near future 

Whether or not they care, these kinds of exaggerated generalizations lead to the distrust and persecution of any group and can do real harm.

When you actually think about politics from a practical standpoint, there will be many different people with different values and objectives.  It's not fair or accurate to look at the opinion of a single fringe actor and say that it characterizes the whole government.  It would be like taking a few Palestinians who want to get rid of all Jews, which used to be in their charter, and say that represents all Arabs or Muslims.  It's harmful to think and speak that way and it's not true.

[Twentyfirst]

19 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

Whether or not they care, these kinds of exaggerated generalizations lead to the distrust and persecution of any group and can do real harm.

When you actually think about politics from a practical standpoint, there will be many different people with different values and objectives.  It's not fair or accurate to look at the opinion of a single fringe actor and say that it characterizes the whole government.  It would be like taking a few Palestinians who want to get rid of all Jews, which used to be in their charter, and say that represents all Arabs or Muslims.  It's harmful to think and speak that way and it's not true.

You could have just asked for clarification on what I meant when I said they. Not ask for clarification while also accusing of anti semitism

Do the Jews always point out generalizations that can lead to persecution for every group or just for themselves? I think the people who are truly anti Semitic are just racist in general and they will hate asians for having slanted eyes, Indians for smelling funny, Arabs for being terrorists, and africans for being black. I don't think that people solely hate Jews just for being born Jewish without any actions caused by Jews or any hate towards any other group. If someone hates Jews today it's because of a certain action they are doing or because they just hate all groups 

If there are groups that are truly anti semitic then find them and deal with them. Its above my pay grade