Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's very possible, But now there are guys from the new generation fighting in the war. To what extent are they committed? Certainly less than the Palestinians. The Palestinians carried out the massacre on October 7 to provoke the martyrdom of their people, thus demonstrating their absolute commitment to their cause. If I had to bet, I would bet that Palestine wins, Israel loses. Not today, not in 10 years, but in 20, 30 years, Israel disappears, Palestine remains. That would be my bet. 

There is something impossible, that they live together in harmony 

There are more Israelis that voluntarily left since the attack then the media will show

Since you brought up Muslims...In islam it teaches that If you kill one person it's as if you are killing the entire world. Maybe the Hamas attack was to provoke martyrdom but Palestinians are largely a muslim population which teaches to value all human life 

Edited yesterday at 04:23 PM by Twentyfirst

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

There are more Israelis that voluntarily left since the attack then the media will show

Normal, and when this war finish a lot of Jews will feel disgust of themselves and they will loose their self-esteem as a nation, since the Jews think that their main value is morality and the sense of justice, so that Hamas will win this war, it will be one more step to weaken Israel. Hamas knows perfectly what they are doing. Even I don't agree with them I can't but admire their commitment 

13 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Since you brought up Muslims...In islam it teaches that If you kill one person it's as if you are killing the entire world

Sure, and the Quran also says that it is legitimate to kill the enemies of Islam. "Enemies of Islam" is quite broad.

Edited yesterday at 04:35 PM by Breakingthewall

[Topspin715]

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think many here equate ethnic cleansing with genocide.   They believe Israel sees no distinction.  

People can be careless with language in politics and there's a huge difference between the two.  Sometimes out of spite, they will exaggerate and emotionalize conflicts for effect.  To understand what's going on, in my opinion at least, it's important to attune to all these subtleties.

While many people may not think there's much of a difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide, rhetorically and practically it makes a huge difference, especially when 2/3 of European Jews were wiped out in the Holocaust.  I hate seeing what is going on in Gaza but there is no effort to systematically eradicate the Palestinians.  To accuse Jews of doing that seems either very stupid to me or intentionally malicious.

[Topspin715]

38 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

There are more Israelis that voluntarily left since the attack then the media will show

Since you brought up Muslims...In islam it teaches that If you kill one person it's as if you are killing the entire world. Maybe the Hamas attack was to provoke martyrdom but Palestinians are largely a muslim population which teaches to value all human life 

This is hard for me to personally understand because Muhammad was a military general in the later part of his life as a prophet his military campaigns took lives.  A lot of Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Al Qaeda, not only don't seem to mind taking the lives of innocent women and children, but have actively sought to do so.

Most people in the US don't know many Muslims, the population is very low here, but when Americans hear about these things in the news, they overgeneralize those kinds of attitudes and values towards all Muslims.

The concept of martyrdom is so unfamiliar to even contemporary religious westerners.  As I understand it, not everybody has the same attitude about it in the Muslim world, but we lack the nuance to really understand why this is happening.

This guy, Gad Saad, is an academic living in Canada, who is a Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Jew, born in Lebanon.  He sees "Islamism" as being inseparable from the Muslim belief system but I don't think it's accurate or fair to present all Muslims in this way.  This lack of judgment or understanding, clearly inflames tensions.  Since he was born in Lebanon, I would expect him to know better, but he doesn't for some reason that I don't understand. 

https://x.com/GadSaad/status/1878585265830396362

Edited yesterday at 05:03 PM by Topspin715

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Sure, and the Quran also says that it is legitimate to kill the enemies of Islam. "Enemies of Islam" is quite broad.

I don't know about that. I think it says if someone is invading your land you can defend it

The UN says you can defend yourself against military occupation but not to kill civilians 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Topspin715 said:

People can be careless with language in politics and there's a huge difference between the two.  Sometimes out of spite, they will exaggerate and emotionalize conflicts for effect.  To understand what's going on, in my opinion at least, it's important to attune to all these subtleties.

While many people may not think there's much of a difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide, rhetorically and practically it makes a huge difference, especially when 2/3 of European Jews were wiped out in the Holocaust.  I hate seeing what is going on in Gaza but there is no effort to systematically eradicate the Palestinians.  To accuse Jews of doing that seems either very stupid to me or intentionally malicious.

They dehumanize Palestinians to a crazy degree. Calling them animals, rats, demonic. Whatever else. And it shows in their actions. If not genocide now it would be if left unchecked 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Topspin715 said:

This is hard for me to personally understand because Muhammad was a military general in the later part of his life as a prophet his military campaigns took lives.  A lot of Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Al Qaeda, not only don't seem to mind taking the lives of innocent women and children, but have actively sought to do so.

Most people in the US don't know many Muslims, the population is very low here, but when Americans hear about these things in the news, they overgeneralize those kinds of attitudes and values towards all Muslims.

The concept of martyrdom is so unfamiliar to even contemporary religious westerners.  As I understand it, not everybody has the same attitude about it in the Muslim world, but we lack the nuance to really understand why this is happening.

Muhammed was a war lord? It's because war is always going to exist. At least the Quran regulates it and gives you rules on how to do it in the best manner possible. In the west they have no rules for war so it is left unchecked and they always go overboard

The terrorists like ISIS are born out of occupation and drone strikes 

It would be best for Americans to stop hearing about things on the news

What is martyrdom by your definition?

1 hour ago, Topspin715 said:

This guy, Gad Saad, is an academic living in Canada, who is a Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Jew, born in Lebanon.  He sees "Islamism" as being inseparable from the Muslim belief system but I don't think it's accurate or fair to present all Muslims in this way.  This lack of judgment or understanding, clearly inflames tensions.  Since he was born in Lebanon, I would expect him to know better, but he doesn't for some reason that I don't understand. 

https://x.com/GadSaad/status/1878585265830396362

I have seen this guys tweets before. He is beyond retarded. It doesn't matter if he was born in Lebanon. He is a westerner with western propaganda bs

[Inliytened1]

26 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

If not genocide now it would be if left unchecked 

This is an assumption.   Nothing more.  

Edited yesterday at 07:00 PM by Inliytened1

[Topspin715]

43 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Muhammed was a war lord? It's because war is always going to exist. At least the Quran regulates it and gives you rules on how to do it in the best manner possible. In the west they have no rules for war so it is left unchecked and they always go overboard

The terrorists like ISIS are born out of occupation and drone strikes 

It would be best for Americans to stop hearing about things on the news

What is martyrdom by your definition?

I have seen this guys tweets before. He is beyond retarded. It doesn't matter if he was born in Lebanon. He is a westerner with western propaganda bs

It's not very helpful to just write him off as "beyond r*tarded", especially when he has experience living in the Middle East and is somewhat logical giving that he's completely a PhD.  I'm not saying that he has wisdom but most PhDs can generally create and respond to logic.

I don't think what he's saying is accurate, but I am no expert on Islam and it's politics so I'm doing a deeper dive on what Islamism is and where it came from.

Non-Muslims are often mistrusting of Islam because of Muhammad's military history compared to somebody like Jesus.  The history of humanity is filled with war and conquest but it's something that would be nice to reduce or transcend in the 3rd millennium of the common era.

[Twentyfirst]

16 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

It's not very helpful to just write him off as "beyond r*tarded", especially when he has experience living in the Middle East and is somewhat logical giving that he's completely a PhD.  I'm not saying that he has wisdom but most PhDs can generally create and respond to logic.

I don't think what he's saying is accurate, but I am no expert on Islam and it's politics so I'm doing a deeper dive on what Islamism is and where it came from.

Non-Muslims are often mistrusting of Islam because of Muhammad's military history compared to somebody like Jesus.  The history of humanity is filled with war and conquest but it's something that would be nice to reduce or transcend in the 3rd millennium of the common era.

Christians are involved in way more war than Muslims

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

He sees "Islamism" as being inseparable from the Muslim belief system but I don't think it's accurate or fair to present all Muslims in this way.

Gad Saad is heavily biased. I follow him on X and see his rhetoric which he loves to deliver with plenty of sarcasm. You’re correct to view his misconception as inaccurate.

He’s conflating things at a kindergarten level. It’s like saying Judaism is inseparable from Ultra-Zionism or the KKK is inseparable from Christianity.

When people say Islamism they’re referring to a militant extremist form of the religion which is a freakish fringe manifestation of Islam amongst 2 billions Muslims. 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by zazen

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, zazen said:

Gad Saad is heavily biased.

He's another one of these anti-woke milkers.

[Topspin715]

21 minutes ago, zazen said:

Gad Saad is heavily biased. I follow him on X and see his rhetoric which he loves to deliver with plenty of sarcasm. You’re correct to view his misconception as inaccurate.

He’s conflating things at a kindergarten level. It’s like saying Judaism is inseparable from Ultra-Zionism or the KKK is inseparable from Christianity.

When people say Islamism they’re referring to a militant extremist form of the religion which is a freakish fringe manifestation of Islam amongst 2 billions Muslims. 

 

He makes very good points here that this Middle East was deeply messed up by the Sykes Picot agreement and interference by European powers at the time.  The expression "a land without a people for a people without a land" originates earlier than he said and came from Christian Zionism.  You can't look at this problem without studying the root causes and they go way back before even 1948.  Europe pulled out of the Middle East and just left a huge mess which they don't know what to do with.

 

"A land without a people for a people without a land" is a widely cited phrase associated with the movement to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Its historicity and significance are a matter of contention.

Although it became a Jewish Zionist slogan, the phrase was originally used as early as 1843 by a Christian Restorationist clergyman, and the phrase continued to be used for almost a century predominantly by Christian Restorationists.

[The Crocodile]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He's another one of these anti-woke milkers.

Milkers!

[Topspin715]

3 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Christians are involved in way more war than Muslims

This was a very interesting watch about the history of Islam.  The history of the world is a history of conquest and war.  There were tons of civil wars and puppet caliphs within the Islamic world.  Muslims and Christians have been fighting wars against each other.  Protestants fought wars against Catholics.  Sunnis fought wars against Shiites.  

In the last few minutes of this video, he summarizes:

"Today, Muslims make up the second largest religious group in the world.  There are over 50 countries in the world that have a Muslim majority, not to mention all the countries where Muslims make up a significant minority as well.  The Islamic civilization is now recovering from the impacts of colonialism.  In many ways, it is still stuck in the time before colonization happened and is trying to find its way forward.  This is a civilization that of course did not experience a Reformation or Enlightenment in the European sense of the words.  Ideas are being discussed on how Islam can cope with life in the 21st century, the relationship between Muslims and the rest of the world isn't helped by the rampant Islamophobia that we see in today's world."

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

When people say Islamism they’re referring to a militant extremist form of the religion which is a freakish fringe manifestation of Islam amongst 2 billions Muslims. 

Are you sure? It would seem that a true Muslim should be an Islamist in some extent. Islamist means that we should impose Islam, punish those who do not bow to Islam. A true Muslim is partly an Islamist, perhaps not actively but ideologically, deep down in his soul he is intolerant. A tolerant Muslim is not a true Muslim.

Are you a true Muslim? I would say no. You are someone who loves his culture and his origins, and honors them, but you are not a Muslim, same that I'm not a Catholic. Why should I pretend to be a Catholic? I think catholic church is a huge shit, they could dissapear tomorrow and nothing would be lost. Christianity has interesting points, same than Quran or Muslim mystics. But Muslim mystics like Rumi or Ibn Arabi are not Muslims, they are mystics. Mystics are universal, but if they had spoken against Islam they would have been silenced.

Edited 21 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Christians are involved in way more war than Muslims

Of course, christians use to be a brunch of mental retarded tied in the darkness and in the fear who killed each other for religious reasons for centuries, who burned scientists at the stake and who denied saying that the earth was round. It is wonderful that most of the West thinks that the entire Catholic religion is a tale for repressed senile old women. Why the Muslims can't do the same with their stupid religion? We both, cristians and Muslims, have a common point: we are retarded. Let's admit and be brothers in our stupidity, then let's forget that shit of religion as it were old clothes. 

Well, I know why it's impossible: because the Muslims have the feeling that they are being submitted, defeated, then they choose be stronger in they madness. Not smart imo, Islam is a cancer, absolutely useless, would be much better if it dissapear 

Edited 21 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Twentyfirst]

40 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

This was a very interesting watch about the history of Islam.  The history of the world is a history of conquest and war.  There were tons of civil wars and puppet caliphs within the Islamic world.  Muslims and Christians have been fighting wars against each other.  Protestants fought wars against Catholics.  Sunnis fought wars against Shiites.  

In the last few minutes of this video, he summarizes:

"Today, Muslims make up the second largest religious group in the world.  There are over 50 countries in the world that have a Muslim majority, not to mention all the countries where Muslims make up a significant minority as well.  The Islamic civilization is now recovering from the impacts of colonialism.  In many ways, it is still stuck in the time before colonization happened and is trying to find its way forward.  This is a civilization that of course did not experience a Reformation or Enlightenment in the European sense of the words.  Ideas are being discussed on how Islam can cope with life in the 21st century, the relationship between Muslims and the rest of the world isn't helped by the rampant Islamophobia that we see in today's world."

Thanks I will have to watch this later

Not all war is the same. After Muslims conquered they gave an option to collect tax from the conquered or they convert to Islam

The past few centuries has been dominated by Christian aggression. Or Western. Whatever you want to call it

Theres no doubt that all have partaken in war. I think because the West was so successful in terms of taking huge continents (North America, Australia) that it can't necessarily be undone when other wars that weren't successful in terms of total domination things naturally balanced out

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Of course, christians use to be a brunch of mental retarded tied in the darkness and in the fear who killed each other for religious reasons for centuries, who burned scientists at the stake and who denied saying that the earth was round. It is wonderful that most of the West thinks that the entire Catholic religion is a tale for repressed senile old women. Why the Muslims can't do the same with their stupid religion? We both, cristians and Muslims, have a common point: we are retarded. Let's admit and be brothers in our stupidity, then let's forget that shit of religion as it were old clothes. 

Well, I know why it's impossible: because the Muslims have the feeling that they are being submitted, defeated, then they choose be stronger in they madness. Not smart imo, Islam is a cancer, absolutely useless, would be much better if it dissapear 

The muslims today look at the christians who became atheist and say a lot of the problems westerners deal with is because they lost their religion. And the westerners who used to be christian but are now atheist look at the muslims and say a lot of the problems the muslims deal with is because they kept their religion. It's all a big debate. Better for each region just to focus on themselves and no more foreign policy where theres any meddling. That way if you fail it's on you and you cant blame outside entities 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said:

The muslims today look at the christians who became atheist and say a lot of the problems westerners deal with is because they lost their religion. And the westerners who used to be christian but are now atheist look at the muslims and say a lot of the problems the muslims deal with is because they kept their religion.

Yes and without doubt both are right. But what a human should want, to look to the future or to the past? To face the risk of the unknown or to cling to a static tradition? One of the two lives, even if that life leads to destruction. The other is dead in life, trapped in a mental corset with which he oppresses himself and which prevents him from evolving. Perhaps he is more efficient, he reproduces more, but he is trapped. Human beings must look to the future, open their minds and hearts. This is difficult because there is so much conflict, selfishness and greed. Perhaps it is impossible but we must try, otherwise we would rather disappear as a species. Total destruction is preferable to stagnation, because humans are suffering beings. Who wants this? Preserve what? The lie, oppression and fear? Better to die. 

Anyway it's just an opinion, of course