Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You don't understand what it takes to make a nation. The founders did. They weren't idealistic fools

But If this is the mechanism through which a state can be established, then the same standard should be applied equally to any state that arises based on a group with some common ground (which is essentially every state ever?) Otherwise, it becomes a double standard. So if we continue that, in what, essentialy Israel is different than all the rest?

Moreover, why the fact that the more activist group with more extreme ideology have to control the ship's helm in order to make an establishment of a new state possible, contradicts the notion that, mentally, developmentally, the Zionist movement is highly diverse and nuanced? Why not both can be true at the same time?

Edited 13 hours ago by Nivsch

[Topspin715]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter
 

1937 Ben Gurion letter

the first Arab riot was in response to seeing zionists marching the street doing military drills.

From Herzl’s diary in 1895

He’s already discussing trying to push the native population out.

In the wikipedia article that you mention, you are selectively quoting the page because at the top it says

"The letter has also been subject to significant debate by scholars as a result of scribbled-out text that may or may not provide written evidence of an intention to "expel the Arabs" or "not expel the Arabs" depending on one's interpretation of whether such deletion was intended by Ben-Gurion."

The Herzl quote that you bring up also mentions buying property at above market rates and securing employment for them elsewhere.  At that point, he was not even talking about Palestine since they had not even picked a geography yet to settle.  Literally buying land from local populations and transforming the landscape is gentrification.  It is legal, although controversial today, but it was definitely also legal back then.

 

[Inliytened1]

59 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. There are extensive quotes of Zionist founders and their plans for ethnic cleansing. I have quoted them extensively in the past.

The cherrypicking of history is actually being done by you.

You need a serious case of not understanding how society forms to even make your arguments. You don't understand what it takes to make a nation. The founders did. They weren't idealistic fools.

What did you expect the founders to do when every turn they take their people are facing extermination from other nations and people.  What did you expect?

You should really stop bashing on Israel and look at the history.   Then maybe you would have a better understanding of their perspective.   When a people become paranoid of extinction they will go to any measure to survive.  It's the animal in all of us.  It's in you. .if you were driven to that.

[Twentyfirst]

8 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

 

With the painful lessons that we've learned from history, we know not to engage in imperialism or even colonialism anymore, but you have to look at Zionism through that historical lens to understand the social dynamics and morality of that time fairly.

 

[Twentyfirst]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

What did you expect the founders to do when every turn they take their people are facing extermination from other nations and people.  What did you expect?

You should really stop bashing on Israel and look at the history.   Then maybe you would have a better understanding of their perspective.   When a people become paranoid of extinction they will go to any measure to survive.  It's the animal in all of us.  It's in you. .if you were driven to that.

Then why don't Palestinians go to another country and kill them all to take their land?

[Twentyfirst]

13 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

 

With the painful lessons that we've learned from history, we know not to engage in imperialism or even colonialism anymore, but you have to look at Zionism through that historical lens to understand the social dynamics and morality of that time fairly.

1. Haifa Massacre 1937

2. Jerusalem Massacre 1937

3. Balad al-Sheikh Massacre 1939

4. Haifa Massacre 1939

5. Haifa Massacre 1947

6. Abbasiya Massacre 1947

7. Al-Khisas Massacre 1947

8. Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947

9. Jerusalem Massacre 1947

10. Sheikh Bureik Massacre 1947

11. Jaffa Massacre 1948

12. Deir Yassin Massacre 1948

13. Tantura Massacre 1948

14. Khan Yunis Massacre 1956

15. Jerusalem Massacre 1967

16. Bahro Al Baquar 1972

17. Sabra and Shatila Massacre 1982

18. Al Aqsa Mosque Massacre 1990

19. lbrahimi Mosque Massacre 1994

20. Jenin Refugee Camp April 2002

21. Gaza Massacre 2008-09

22. Gaza Massacre 2012

23. Gaza Massacre 2014

24. Gaza Massacre 2018-19

25. Gaza Massacre 2021

26. Gaza Massacre 2023

Edited 14 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Topspin715]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Saying this quote explains Deir Yassin is nonsense given this context. It was clearly bluster.

The nakba began before the 1948 war. That is the point. It wasn’t that Palestinians fled because of the 48 war, they were being expelled prior to the war and expelled during and after the war in a concentrated plan to change the demographic balance of the country.

Israeli Jews are held to a different standard than everyone else, they do colonization, terrorism, and ethnics cleansing but it isn’t considered war crimes when they do it. Settlements built on occupied land are war crimes according to every international legal body, yet Israel is allowed to continue. 

The conflict doesn’t go back thousands of years and it isn’t about religious fundamentalists vs everyone else.

Palestinians and a Jewish minority lived just fine there prior to Zionism. It was secular zionists who took the country and for a long time it was secular nationalist Palestinians who fought them. Hamas only showed up in the 80s. 

You can't be serious if you think that Jews should have written off a threat of extermination in 1947, right after the Arabs rejected the UN Partition Plan, and 2 years after the Holocaust.

Large population shifts cause social unrest under nearly any circumstance.  I lived in a predominantly low income black neighborhood when I was an intern after college and I was unprovoked hostility from some of the locals in the neighborhood.

I actually don't think Islamic fundamentalism is necessarily the biggest problem, but I'm not that familiar with the Islamic belief system.  Christian fundamentalists have been pushing for foreign policy to settle "Greater Israel" and to a lesser extent, some Jewish fundamentalists support that too.  This mostly happens under the radar, you'll barely see reporting of it in mainstream media, but they've been pushing for the return of Jews for centuries to facilitate the return of Jesus according to their belief system.

It's the people who are most zealous about their beliefs that are motivated to push for what they want and take control of politics.  Those who are advocates for a sensible approach to politics tend to get drowned out.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Then why don't Palestinians go to another country and kill them all to take their land?

I don't know why don't you ask them.

[Twentyfirst]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

I don't know why don't you ask them.

I don't have to. You brought up the point. Defend your silly idea

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Twentyfirst said:

I don't have to. You brought up the point. Defend your silly idea

I would say because they don't have the means.  Israel was able to build themselves up on the shoulders of giants.   But don't think for a second they wouldn't if they had the means.  What do you think their terrorist backing tried to do.  It's not so silly if you think about it.

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I would say because they don't have the means.  Israel was able to build themselves up on the shoulders of giants.   But don't think for a second they wouldn't if they had the means.  What do you think their terrorist backing tried to do.  It's not so silly if you think about it.

Stop using deception. What this thread is literally about discovering 

BTW Palestinian refugees live in peace and harmony in whatever country they ended up. Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Europe, United States

Stop speaking if you are gonna say lies 

[Nivsch]

@Twentyfirst This list is dishonest and demagogic because includes surgical operations and wars, and overlooks causalities, dynamics of events from both sides and environment.

Edited 13 hours ago by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

Another deception is that Israel genuinely wants to make peace but its the other side that is stubbornly refusing out of hatred and anti semitism and any massacre or taking more land is just a reaction to Palestinian aggression vs meticulous planning of continued colonization 

 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said:

Another deception is that Israel genuinely wants to make peace but its the other side that is stubbornly refusing out of hatred and anti semitism and any massacre or taking more land is just a reaction to Palestinian aggression vs meticulous planning of continued colonization 

 

If you guys wanna demonize Israel just remember it's a low level perspective. 

[Twentyfirst]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Twentyfirst This list is dishonest and demagogic because includes surgical operations and wars, and overlooks causalities, dynamics of events from both sides and environment.

Well I was responding to him saying that Israel learned its lesson not to colonize so do with it what you will

[Twentyfirst]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

If you guys wanna demonize Israel just remember it's a low level perspective. 

I would rather be remembered in history as standing up for justice, innocent people, and what's right with my lower perspective.

Im a human being with a conscience and belief in god and people. I will never condone violence or atrocities on such a high level 

Im not a thoughtless baby killing machine 

[Twentyfirst]

 

 

Another Zionist deception is that any retaliation from Palestinians is a measure of their true intentions or proves that they are indeed terrorists who refuse to be peaceful 

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

 I will never condone violence or atrocities on such a high level 

 

But you condone the initial attack on Israel.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Inliytened1

[Twentyfirst]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But you condone the initial attack on Israel.

 

Okay smart ass

Find me that quote where I said that and bring it here on this thread for everyone to see

Liar

Which initial attack btw? It's a 75 year conflict. Use your IQ and brain cells to be more specific 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Okay smart ass

Find me that quote where I said that and bring it here on this thread for everyone to see

Liar

Which initial attack btw? It's a 75 year conflict. Use your IQ and brain cells to be more specific 

Are you OK?  I recall normally you're more stable than this.  You don't normally resort to name calling.  

I'm not going to hold an intelligent dialogue with you if you can't be mature about it and hold one with me.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Inliytened1