Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Nivsch]

13 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

A lot of these videos that you are posting come from the most extreme fringe of the fringe elements of Jewish fundamentalism

+1 ❤

Exactly. Certains videos have points to consider and to self reflect on, but the entire envelope of hidden assumptions encompasses the legit points in those videos often seems toxic and cringy to me, and I feel how much it is far from showing the reality of most sectors thinking in Israel.

Edited yesterday at 08:20 AM by Nivsch

[Topspin715]

If people want to discuss this more deeply, to think about actual solutions, I would be happy to do so.  I've already been thinking about this very hard for many years.

You really can't understand this conflict without doing a deep dive on the formation of national identities, the history of nation states, ethnogenesis, and the many conflicting fundamentalist views in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and maybe even some of the smaller Abrahamic sects.

To summarize what's been going on in Israel, the peace process has basically failed since 2000 and Israelis have increasingly given up hope of achieving a peaceful solution.  During times of chaotic conflict and struggle, the most extreme viewpoints tend to become energized and rise to the top, so the religious nationalists have become increasingly empowered.  There are still many Israelis and Zionists that want a peaceful two-state solution, but they are growing weaker and are being drowned out by extremists.  This is the case on both sides of the conflict as both populations are being radicalized.

This video about religious psychology in Dune is pretty helpful in understanding the power of cohesion in extreme religious groups.

 

[Leo Gura]

The Bibi Files documentary:

https://www.actualized.org/insights/the-bibi-files

[The Crocodile]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The Bibi Files documentary:

https://www.actualized.org/insights/the-bibi-files

Bibi = daddy.

[Twentyfirst]

19 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

Safe is a subjective term but it's completely unnecessary to justify Israel's existence.

To answer your question, no there is no other safe haven for Jews.  The US is not a safe haven.  The US closed its doors to Jewish immigration in the 1920s and 1930s.  Europe is not a safe haven.  There were pogroms in Europe even after WW2 ended.  Israel is a safe haven.  Still not necessary to justify it though. 

When you present such extreme arguments from extremists as legitimate, you assume the role of extremist yourself.  But like I said, I'm not here to dissuade you of your hatred.

Your arguments are inconsistent.  Humans are war-like and have been since before the dawn of civilization.  The Ottomans ruled through conquest and when they collapsed and were conquered, you expect them to somehow continue ruling over their territory?

We fortunately live in a relatively more peaceful world today but you can't ascribe the morality of 2025 to actions that took place more than a hundred years ago.  Somehow, humans need to learn to overcome our violent past.

 

Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews. Thats why this thread exists though. So we can see where the deceptions are. Sorry you got deceived! 

Every minute theres a sucker born

All the civilizations YOU brought up. Canada, America, Australia. Are all western. So you brought up other countries that are war like and people say "they should go back to where they came from" and said why can't Isreal do the same without also having to go back to where they came from. Why didn't you bring up other countries besides the west? Because nobody is as war like or barbaric as the west has been. 

Who cares about the Ottomans? Doesn't give you right to steal and kill people just because power shifted. 75 years later zionism is an absolute failure of a plan. 

Edited yesterday at 02:00 PM by Twentyfirst

[Topspin715]

4 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews. Thats why this thread exists though. So we can see where the deceptions are. Sorry you got deceived! 

Every minute theres a sucker born

All the civilizations YOU brought up. Canada, America, Australia. Are all western. So you brought up other countries that are war like and people say "they should go back to where they came from" and said why can't Isreal do the same without also having to go back to where they came from. Why didn't you bring up other countries besides the west? Because nobody is as war like or barbaric as the west has been. 

Who cares about the Ottomans? Doesn't give you right to steal and kill people just because power shifted. 75 years later zionism is an absolute failure of a plan. 

There is just so much animosity and prejudice behind your language.  I can tell you aren't western.  Maybe you are Muslim or Arab, I don't know.

Throughout history, any time some kind of state would collapse or implode on itself, it creates a power vacuum and there's a power struggle internally or externally to fill that gap.  In this case, the western powers filled the gap and voluntarily chose to withdraw after WW2.  The Muslim world has struggle to find a model for a stable and functional governing system after the decline of the caliphate system with the Ottomans.  That is an overdue and sorely needed political innovation in this world.

The original Zionists were not there to conquer or steal land.  They bought land in the Middle East in order to escape from European anti-semitism, the Second World War happened which screwed up, well the entire world, and the native Arabs (proto Palestinians) fought the Jews and revolted against the British.

Israel is clearly the only designated safe haven for Jewish people in the world, but like I said that, that doesn't even matter.  If you are Arab or Muslim, I might be interested in discussing with you further, but I don't have much interest in speaking with random anti-semites about this who have no personal connections to the Middle Eastern conflict.

Edited 21 hours ago by Topspin715

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

Israel is clearly the only designated safe haven for Jewish people in the world,

It's not about safety, it's about ethnocentric identity and culture.

Jews are safe in the US, Canada, and Western Europe. At this point Israel creates more danger for Jews than anyone else. But that price is accepted because the real prize isn't safety, it's ethnic identity at any cost.

Edited 21 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Topspin715]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The Bibi Files documentary:

https://www.actualized.org/insights/the-bibi-files

I personally see Netanyahu as a very large obstacle to peace, although there is a large issue with Israel's political base having grown increasingly religious and extreme in the past couple decades.

I might watch the documentary out of curiosity, and this doesn't excuse potential corrupt behavior from any Israeli political, of which there supposedly is too much, but the Palestinian leadership, beyond just Hamas even, has stolen billions of dollars in foreign aid from their own people.  Without holding both parties to the same standards, it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve a durable peace.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arafats-billions/

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

behavior from any Israeli political

This isn't about Israelis per se, but the level of development of the government. There is no reason a government built from todays opposition in Israel (~50%) will be more corrupt than a similar Centrist and leftward government in Europe.

Edited 21 hours ago by Nivsch

[Topspin715]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not about safety, it's about ethnocentric identity and culture.

Jews are safe in the US, Canada, and Western Europe. At this point Israel creates more danger for Jews than anyone else. But that price is accepted because the real prize isn't safety, it's ethnic identity at any cost.

The primary goal is any state is to maintain security for its residents.  The founding purpose of the Zionist state was to escape perennial persecution by the West and it proved to be very prescient given what happened only a few decades in Europe after Herzl created his imperfect vision that lacked foresight in other critical and obvious ways.

It is about ethnicity and culture but it is even more about national security.  Christian Zionists had begun planning and laying foundations for Jews to return to the "Holy Land" for centuries before Herzl started to promote his plan.

I don't think it's a meaningful statement to say that Israel creates more danger for Jews.  Some risks are increased, others are decreased.  We are seeing tensions escalate in the US and Europe.  If Israel didn't exist, it would most definitely be something else that people would be screaming about.  During periods and cycles of political instability, as you have pointed out in your video, the low consciousness mob turns to scapegoat Jews in someway, maybe without exception.

Edited 21 hours ago by Topspin715

[Twentyfirst]

31 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

There is just so much animosity and prejudice behind your language.  I can tell you aren't western.  Maybe you are Muslim or Arab, I don't know.

Throughout history, any time some kind of state would collapse or implode on itself, it creates a power vacuum and there's a power struggle internally or externally to fill that gap.  In this case, the western powers filled the gap and voluntarily chose to withdraw after WW2.  The Muslim world has struggle to find a model for a stable and functional governing system after the decline of the caliphate system with the Ottomans.  That is an overdue and sorely needed political innovation in this world.

The original Zionists were not there to conquer or steal land.  They bought land in the Middle East in order to escape from European anti-semitism, the Second World War happened which screwed up, well the entire world, and the native Arabs (proto Palestinians) fought the Jews and revolted against the British.

Israel is clearly the only designated safe haven for Jewish people in the world, but like I said that, that doesn't even matter.  If you are Arab or Muslim, I might be interested in discussing with you further, but I don't have much interest in speaking with random anti-semites about this who have no personal connections to the Middle Eastern conflict.

Where in the Nakba did the Jews buy up the land of the 750,000 ethnically cleansed people? 

You're an anti semite. Israel is anti semitism at its finest. You said it yourself. Israel was created out of European anti semitism. "We hate you because you are Jewish leave Europe now"

If your ancestors truly cared about Jews. They wouldn't have put the Jews in such a puzzling circumstance all these years later. It wouldn't have taken a genius to know zionism is a terrible situation for Jews. Me pointing out that it's a failed plan is not anti semitism as it takes to account the shitty lose lose situation the Jews are in and seeks to rectify that

Edited 21 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Topspin715]

3 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Where in the Nakba did the Jews buy up the land of the 750,000 ethnically cleansed people? 

You're an anti semite. Israel is anti semitism at its finest. You said it yourself. Israel was created out of European anti semitism 

I'm not an anti-semite.  I do not hold hostility towards Jews, for whom the term was originally invented, or the Semitic peoples in the Middle East.

 

Between the early 1900s and the outbreak of World War I, Zionists purchased around 150,000 acres of land in Palestine. This was a relatively small amount, and the land was primarily acquired from absentee landlords, many of whom were Ottoman subjects, rather than from Palestinian peasants.

Post-World War I (1920-1930s): After World War I, during the British Mandate over Palestine (1920-1948), Zionist land acquisition accelerated. By the late 1930s, approximately 1.2 million acres of land had been purchased. These purchases included both agricultural land and areas for settlements.

The early land purchases caused tensions and some displacement but the largest amount of displacement came from the 1948 war and defeat of Arab militaries.  I understand why native Arabs would be uncomfortable and frustrated with a foreign culture coming in to settle near them.  I'm not sure that responding with violence, which happened beginning in the 1920s, was a good way to deal with things.  As is the case with any irreconcilable conflict that isn't resolved, it will continue to escalate until the stronger and more motivated party or parties win.

I don't want to see continued bloodshed in the Middle East, or anywhere for that matter, but the Jews clearly aren't leaving, nor should they in my opinion, but to de-escalate and restore peace, there are a lot of really complicated cultural, historical, political, economic etc problems and conflicts to resolve.

[Twentyfirst]

10 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

I'm not an anti-semite.  I do not hold hostility towards Jews, for whom the term was originally invented, or the Semitic peoples in the Middle East.

 

Between the early 1900s and the outbreak of World War I, Zionists purchased around 150,000 acres of land in Palestine. This was a relatively small amount, and the land was primarily acquired from absentee landlords, many of whom were Ottoman subjects, rather than from Palestinian peasants.

Post-World War I (1920-1930s): After World War I, during the British Mandate over Palestine (1920-1948), Zionist land acquisition accelerated. By the late 1930s, approximately 1.2 million acres of land had been purchased. These purchases included both agricultural land and areas for settlements.

The early land purchases caused tensions and some displacement but the largest amount of displacement came from the 1948 war and defeat of Arab militaries.  I understand why native Arabs would be uncomfortable and frustrated with a foreign culture coming in to settle near them.  I'm not sure that responding with violence, which happened beginning in the 1920s, was a good way to deal with things.  As is the case with any irreconcilable conflict that isn't resolved, it will continue to escalate until the stronger and more motivated party or parties win.

I don't want to see continued bloodshed in the Middle East, or anywhere for that matter, but the Jews clearly aren't leaving, nor should they in my opinion, but to de-escalate and restore peace, there are a lot of really complicated cultural, historical, political, economic etc problems and conflicts to resolve.

The Jews aren't leaving because of anti semitism. The Jews don't care about their own family members enough. Their mothers may die, their sisters, daughters, grandmothers, brothers, uncles. They don't care enough to protect these people by leaving because of anti semitism. If you really love Jews you would protect them (long term). By the way I am not suggesting leaving but making peace. How is settling on West Bank land that isn't yours in the 21st century making peace?

Jews would rather destroy an entire civilization and build resorts on the bones of dead women and children than leave. They have become absolute savage animalistic brutal monsters. Zionism turned them into worst regime that exists today. No regard for human life that isn't theirs. No acknowledgment of what they are doing or the reactions that they cause. Completely brainwashed and disconnected from reality 

Zionism is about as anti semitic as you can get. It puts Jews in danger and it turns them into Nazi's against a innocent culture

Dont agrue 

You cant debate the differences between Israel and Zionism but as long as Israel is controlled by a mostly Zionist population they are one in the same 

Edited 21 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Topspin715]

13 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

The Jews aren't leaving because of anti semitism. The Jews don't care about their own family members enough. Their mothers may die, their sisters, daughters, grandmothers, brothers, uncles. They don't care enough to protect these people by leaving. By the way I am not suggesting leaving but making peace. How is settling on land that isn't yours in the 21st century making peace?

Jews would rather destroy an entire civilization and build resorts on the bones of dead women and children than leave. 

Zionism is about as anti semitic as you can get. It puts Jews in danger and it turns them into Nazi's against a innocent culture

Dont agrue 

You are saying that the Jews should go back to Europe, which isn't suggesting that you are interested in peace.

How do you think humans throughout history have come to legitimately "own land"?  The Zionists had the intention to buy land, which they started to do, but they were received with all different sorts of violence.  During episodes of geopolitical violence, there is almost always displacement and repossession of land.

My goal here isn't to "win arguments" by the way.  I'm looking to forge a shared understanding based on historical and current truths, because that's a pre-requisite to finding a real solution.

Edited 21 hours ago by Topspin715

[Twentyfirst]

8 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

You are saying that the Jews should go back to Europe, which isn't suggesting that you are interested in peace.

How do you think humans throughout history have come to legitimately "own land"?  The Zionists had the intention to buy land, which they started to do, but they were received with all different sorts of violence.  During episodes of geopolitical violence, there is almost always displacement and repossession of land.

No I asked whats stopping all the Jews from hopping on a plane and going to Europe. You got all emotional and couldn't keep your composure and started accusing me of hatred and asking me about my background

If Israel truly is the only safe place in the world for Jews. What is it that would stop all Jews from going to Europe? Would you just instantly vaporize when you land in Europe? Is that the danger? 

You just admitted that violence is okay to gain land. Its not okay

Zionist had only the worst intentions. They don't even acknowledge Palestinians as humans  Forget about buying land fairly. They still haven't even apologized for stealing land. They denied that Palestinians even ever existed

Enjoy the safety that is granted from living in a 75 year war zone I guess

Edited 20 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Topspin715]

31 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

No I asked whats stopping all the Jews from hopping on a plane and going to Europe. You got all emotional and couldn't keep your composure and started accusing me of hatred and asking me about my background

If Israel truly is the only safe place in the world for Jews. What is it that would stop all Jews from going to Europe? Would you just instantly vaporize when you land in Europe? Is that the danger? 

You just admitted that violence is okay to gain land. Its not okay

Zionist had only the worst intentions. They don't even acknowledge Palestinians as humans  Forget about buying land fairly. They still haven't even apologized for stealing land. They denied that Palestinians even ever existed

Enjoy the safety that is granted from living in a 75 year war zone I guess

I don't know you think the Jews should consider going to Europe.  Why don't the Palestinians just go to Europe or Egypt or other places in the Middle East?  I don't think that they should leave either.

I didn't say violence is OK to gain land.  Morals evolve over time and the West has sought to preserve national boundaries after WW2.  It is starting to grow weaker which is why we see chaos and war breaking out in the Middle East and Ukraine.  Throughout all of human history, the vast majority of land was taken and settled by force.  That pertains to the entirety of the Middle East, Europe, Ottoman Empire, nearly everywhere.

The early Zionists didn't have the worst intentions.  I don't think that they anticipated how much disruption there would be from settling in the Middle East, nor did they predict WW1 or WW2.  You have to realize what limited information people with using to make decisions in the late 1800s.  In the late 1890s, at the time of Theodore Herzl, they only had telegraph and snail mail.  Radio and telephone were slowly beginning to emerge but were certainly not ubiquitous at that time.

At this point, there's generational and cultural trauma going back over 100 years among both the Arabs and Jews that needs to be acknowledged and overcome.

Continued war, fear, and conflict leads people to dehumanize and hate others.  Obviously Palestinians and Arabs are humans.

What is considered "stolen" versus legitimately settled or even "occupied" land is not clear, it is really controversial and has not yet been settled.

The Palestinian national identity did mostly emerge in reaction to Zionism but it doesn't make them any less human of deserving of security and living in peace.  Arab nationalism as a whole is a very new phenomenon when you look at the course of history.

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Topspin715

[Twentyfirst]

58 minutes ago, Topspin715 said:

I don't know you think the Jews should consider going to Europe.  Why don't the Palestinians just go to Europe or Egypt or other places in the Middle East?  I don't think that they should leave either.

I didn't say violence is OK to gain land.  Morals evolve over time and the West has sought to preserve national boundaries after WW2.  It is starting to grow weaker which is why we see chaos and war breaking out in the Middle East and Ukraine.  Throughout all of human history, the vast majority of land was taken and settled by force.  That pertains to the entirety of the Middle East, Europe, Ottoman Empire, nearly everywhere.

The early Zionists didn't have the worst intentions.  I don't think that they anticipated how much disruption there would be from settling in the Middle East, nor did they predict WW1 or WW2.  You have to realize what limited information people with using to make decisions in the late 1800s.  In the late 1890s, at the time of Theodore Herzl, they only had telegraph and snail mail.  Radio and telephone were slowly beginning to emerge but were certainly not ubiquitous at that time.

At this point, there's generational and cultural trauma going back over 100 years among both the Arabs and Jews that needs to be acknowledged and overcome.

Continued war, fear, and conflict leads people to dehumanize and hate others.  Obviously Palestinians and Arabs are humans.

What is considered "stolen" versus legitimately settled or even "occupied" land is not clear, it is really controversial and has not yet been settled.

The Palestinian national identity did mostly emerge in reaction to Zionism but it doesn't make them any less human of deserving of security and living in peace.  Arab nationalism as a whole is a very new phenomenon when you look at the course of history.

 

A lot of words to mask that Jews aren't really safe anymore in the Middle East. They were safe before zionism when Jews and Arabs lived side by side in relative peace

The difference between Jews leaving and Palestinians leaving is this. The Jews are willing to kill to stay on that land. And the Palestinians are willing to die to stay on that land. Obviously 

All this "land is taken by force" goes out the window when Jews show their true colors. Once Oct 7th happened the Jews were victims "I cant believe they killed us and took us hostage how unfair this shouldn't happen". And every decade before that the Jews would act like victims whenever there was an attack on them. But I thought you said it was fine for land to be settled by force? So why do they Jews become victims

Believe whatever you what to believe. Stay safe out there

Edited 19 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

The original Zionists were not there to conquer or steal land.  They bought land in the Middle East in order to escape from European anti-semitism,

Not only that. In the core of the Jewish religion is the return to the promised land. This is not something ritual that they say, but the fundamental pillar of Judaism, what keeps them united as an ethnic group. Without that they would have dissolved, like many other ethnic groups.

[Twentyfirst]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

Not only that. In the core of the Jewish religion is the return to the promised land. This is not something ritual that they say, but the fundamental pillar of Judaism, what keeps them united as an ethnic group. Without that they would have dissolved, like many other ethnic groups.

That has nothing to do with Zionism deceiving Jews into thinking that the so called promised land is safe 

Palestinian ethnic group don't have a land of their own, they are a separated people, and have faced a century of oppression. Jews just traded in their suffering for another groups and call it divine