Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Leo Gura]

@Some dude on the net If you don't calm down with your ravings you will be banned from the Politics sub-forum. This is place for nuance.

Mearsheimer has done important work in unmasking the workings of the Israel lobby.

Edited October 13 by Leo Gura

[Some dude on the net]

@Leo Gura I know what he has done Leo. Chomsky is lightyears away from him. We have other people spreading hate, yet I'm one who gets a warning. Or maybe you don't want to recognize that the US is directly responsible for the genocide. Also EU politics makes me sick. 

 

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Some dude on the net said:

@Leo Gura I know what he has done Leo. Chomsky is lightyears away from him. We have other people spreading hate, yet I'm one who gets a warning. Or maybe you don't want to recognize that the US is directly responsible for the genocide. Also EU politics makes me sick. 

You get the warning because this is not your first time saying unnuanced and bombastic things which lead to a low quality understanding of the complex domain of politics.

Pay attention to the unhinged tone and manner in which you talk about politics. This is not in the spirit of consciousness and our work here. The point is to become wise and grounded, not a raving unhinged bomb-thrower.

If you wanna make a point or critique, do so calmly and reasonably.

Edited October 14 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

 

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura Have you read about how Israel killed its own people during October 7th and lied a lot about what Hamas did, making them look worse.

Or you still believe everything Israel claimed that Hamas did?

I keep hearing "they burned babies" for example by pro Israelis but only 1 baby was killed on the whole attack and the baby was not burned.

Same with "beheading people", which I found no proof of.

The only thing Pro Israelis claim which I found proof of is rape.

 

Edited October 14 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Have you read about how Israel killed its own people during October 7th and lied a lot about what Hamas did, making them look worse.

Of course.

Quote

Or you still believe everything Israel claimed that Hamas did?

No. Israelis are liars. None of their spokepeople can be trusted. They have no loyalty to truth, only to their Jewish identity.

Edited October 14 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Israelis are liars.

I am happy you woke up to the truth.

I kept telling here that a lot of the Hamas actions which Israelis claimed were shameless lies.

Not to say they did not kill civilians, just the matter HOW they killed was lied about to make them look worse.

There is a difference when you read "X group shot 50 civilians" versus "X group burned and beheaded 50 civilians".

I also believed it at first to be honest, but then I did research and found a lot of the horrible claims were debunked.

1 example which stood out to me at first was a report that 2 packs of 10 year old kids were tied with chains and burned alive in 1 of the kibutzes. I found it really really barbaric and fully believed it. Then some months later, it was debunked as a lie and they never showed real proof of it. I felt like a fool...

 

Edited October 14 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

 

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura Is this guy Max good? I see him often on Judge Napolitano.

I also see Aaron Mate and I like that guy.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Is this guy Max good?

He's got a pretty strong Green bias, but he shares some good information.

You gotta balance out all the Green anti-imperialist Marxist ideologues with other, more pragmatic perspectives.

Pundits who are pure Green are not to be listened to too much. Their loyalties are also not to truth but to delusional utopian ideals.

Recognize that loyalty to social justice and equality is not loyalty to truth, it is a corruption of a higher order.

Edited October 14 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They have no loyalty to truth, only to their Jewish identity.

That’s not exactly true, many Israelis including the founders were secular, and even religious messianic Jews often go against Judaism for political aims. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

That’s not exactly true, many Israelis including the founders were secular, and even religious messianic Jews often go against Judaism for political aims. 

1) It doesn't matter if they are secular or not. Jewish identity is still running the show. We are dealing with ethno-nationalism here.

2) I was speaking primarily of Israeli government leadership and spokespeople. Of course Israel is a diverse country which has honest dessentors. Not all Germans were Nazis in Nazi Germany either. But Nazis ran the show.

Edited October 14 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

all Germans were Nazis in Nazi Germany either. But Nazis ran the show.

But that comparison is problematic.

Israel divergence is not Germany in WW2 just minus the government.

The values of Germans center of gravity wasn't similar to the values of Israelis center of gravity.

A right comparison will be to compare Israeli government to George W.Bush government in 2001 or Trump in 2016, and the crowd center of gravity as like Americans center of gravity.

Edited October 14 by Nivsch

[Some dude on the net]

@Leo Gura 🙏Yet you deflected my question. I've send some very nuanced things. I still have some green in me. The US Led War after 9/11 killed 4.700.000 people and displaced 39.000.000. How many more millions of people need to die, and how many tens of millions need to be displaced so that America maintains her choke point on world power? This is exactly what's happening in the Middle East right now. Israel without US, Germany and UK support is nothing. They displaced 1.200.000 people just in Lebanon in over a month.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGdetob7S/

Edited October 14 by Some dude on the net

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Some dude on the net said:

The US Led War after 9/11 killed 4.700.000 people

Obviously those wars were wrong.

[Some dude on the net]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously those wars were wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs Biden in 1986 "Were there not an Israel the United States of America would need to invent an Israel.". I'm telling you Leo, America has a lot more to play in this that you give it credit fore. Check the tik tok I've send. UK and America have the world in there poket. I'm not pro American, I'm not Pro Russian or Chinese. My country has always been on the wrong side of history. I'm just pro humanity. I have a theory that Scandinavia is Green because of the cold. Cold unites people, it strengths the bonds for survival. Warm environment leads to chaos, your survival is less dependent on cooperating with others in warm environments. 

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Some dude on the net said:

Biden in 1986 "Were there not an Israel the United States of America would need to invent an Israel.".

I know.

Biden is a medicore person.

Edited October 14 by Leo Gura

[DawnC]

On 10/8/2024 at 2:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

Anything that helps deepen understanding of Israel. Not everything is deception.

The goal is to understand their political activity.

On 10/7/2024 at 9:16 AM, Leo Gura said:

Sorry if this doesn't seem fair, but this is what I needed to study to unravel the deceptions. This is part of my own sense-making journey.

This is a surprisingly disappointing thread.

What are the questions you set up to answer here? Is this really an intent to understand Israeli society and Israeli nationalism?

As I have no credibility in your eyes (I assume, since you don't know me), I don't know how to convey to you in a forum comment how misguided you are regarding this subject. Truly.

Here are some of my thoughts:

- Note the major problem with researching a society's biases while neglecting the broader geopolitical context in which the country exists and operates, the challenges it faces, the enemies it deals with, and so many other factors. There is also a significant problem with understanding certain behaviors of a society while neglecting those broader issues. Let me give you a simple example: is it possible to understand the Dresden bombing without understanding the Nazis? Is it possible to understand Ukrainian biases without understanding Russia? It seems that you either fail to see this, or you have already wrapped your mind around those and think you understand the broader context. If that’s the case, what is the purpose of this thread? No real inquiry into their biases and actions can be done without understanding what they’re up against.

- If you are interested in a society or a country's actions, as a part of an ongoing conflict, note the highway toward bias when researching any conflict through the lens of 'understanding some side's deception' (and I really don't think I need to elaborate here). Also, note that most of the sources are focused on the conflict and not on Israeli society. The sources you’ve shared suggest that it may be self-deceptive to say that the focus is on Israeli society and nationalism and not the conflict.

- Note, that in an ongoing conflict, there are very strong interests at play regarding information spread. You may understand it conceptually (and even argue it regarding the Israeli military), but this understanding does not manifest in the sources you've decided to share here. Many of them are low quality and do not provide a good way for comprehensive understanding but serve as reinforcement to someone who has already made up their mind.

- Your understanding of Israeli society appears to be simplistic and shallow. Israeli society is an extremely complicated one for research. There are more than five large 'sub-societies' in Israel that are extremely different from each other, and the relationships between them are complicated. Israeli society is not very close to the ethno-nationalistic image you have in mind. Learning about Israeli society from a speaker whose main goal is to express an opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not a good idea. What picture would he portray?

- It’s not about fairness – it’s about truth and morality. The point at which you set out to conduct your research seems to rely on certain preconceived conclusions (such as the assertion that Israel is conducting ethnic cleansing and that this is a result of national-related deception), and the way you have structured your research here appears to prevent you from identifying flaws in your worldview. Note that I’m not really questioning your intentions, but I do urge you to examine your methodology, as it reinforces your beliefs without providing a serious means to question them. It seems like this path won't lead to deep research at all. 

 

[Some dude on the net]

@DawnC I agree 100%. Mearsheimer is just shifting the blame from US to Israel. As this whole thread is. Mearsheimer views of the world triggered the war in Ukraine and now America is backing off. Leaving Ukraine in a nightmare situation. Mearsheimer and Chomsky agree on some things, but they disagree on a lot more things. Chomsky see Mearsheimer as limited. He considers that Mearsheimer ignores the true reality of imperialism. The biggest green flag for Chomsky is that he is an American. He speaks just the truth, because he is true yellow. And the truth is this. "Other country's hire terrorists, we hire terrorists states". America is the sole responsable for the Genocide. If they didn't gave Israel $20B of weapons in one year, this genocide would have happened. Israel is the US's puppie that does the job America would have done itself, but instead of hearing in the news America you hear Israel. People are ignoring reality. They love shifting blame from America to Israel because of patriotism. And I'm getting threatened of not being nuanced enough, people think that if you judge the system you judge them. That's not true. And it's not judging, is the truth, it's a sick sistem. America is the Biggest terrorist state in the last 35 years. They have killed around 6.000.000 people from 90' till now. More than half of them were civilians, women and kids. Who died of hunger because of hard-core sanctions. And now they are doing it again and shifting blame on Israel. Biden could have stop this Genocide with a phone call. No more guns. But instead they deliver more guns, shame on America. 6.000.000 people dead, because Saddam dared to touch there oil economy. This is what people don't understand. This war is about the oil of the Middle East. Who controls the oil of Middle East control the world. 60% of the world oil reserves are in the Middle East. Sun Tzu " The goal of every war is profit" https://youtu.be/6dBy4-6pn1M?si=yS6FMGM_B5KRyEgd

Edited October 14 by Some dude on the net

[Raze]