Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Raze]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Greens are still delusional about what they hope they can accomplish on this issue. There will be no two-state solution and no justice here. And Palestinian people are still too underdeveloped to form a functional non-genocidal government.

How do you know this? The only chance they had to vote it was between Hamas and a corrupt PLO, and exit polls show even the Hamas voters mostly did it as a counter to the PLO and supported the two states solution at the time. 
 

 

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but at this point I figure we will have 20 years of radical terrorists attacking Israel from every corner of the Arab population. So I don't know about hopes for cooperation.

The situation is very, very bad.

Most major Arab states have offered normalization with Israel if Palestinians get a state, even Iran at one point signed on to the Arab peace initiative.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

How do you know this? The only chance they had to vote it was between Hamas and a corrupt PLO, and exit polls show even the Hamas voters mostly did it as a counter to the PLO and supported the two states solution at the time. 

Look at the chaos of their situation. Liberal democracy cannot exist in such conditions. The only thing that can exist there is isane corruption and authoritarian rule.

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If Palestinians get a state

Iareali leadership will never agree to a Palestinian state. They never have. They say so themselves.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Look at the chaos of their situation. Liberal democracy cannot exist in such conditions. The only thing that can exist there is isane corruption and authoritarian rule.

They don’t need to have liberal democracy, the situation would be a lot better even if they were still authoritarian like Jordan, they just need human rights and functioning schools, hospitals, jobs etc.

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Iareali leadership will never agree to a Palestinian state. They never have. They say so themselves.

The US is the only one really stopping it from being forcefully imposed. 
Or they could have a one state solution and integrate Palestinians in as Israeli citizens.

Edited October 12 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, Raze said:

they just need human rights and functioning schools, hospitals, jobs etc.

They ain't gonna get that without proper government. Which they will not get because they will not get a state and no control over their own security.

Security is the foundation for everything else. And security is the one thing Israel categorically refuses to grant them.

This whole conflict is about security.

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The US is the only one really stopping it from being forcefully imposed.

The US cannot force a state on them without Israeli concession or going to war with Israel, since Israel has its military occupying the area.

The best the US can do is stop funding and arming Israel and impose sanctions. But we all know that's not gonna happen.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

"Let us not hurl blame at the murderers. Why should we complain of their hatred for us? Eight years they've sat in the refugee camps of Gaza and seen with their own eyes how we have made our homeland of the soil of the villages where they and their fore-bearers once dwelt. Not from the Arabs of Gaza must we demand the blood of [the dead] but from ourselves."

-- Moshe Dayan, Israeli Chief of the IDF, 1956

What's amazing is that modern Israelis are so brainwashed with their own propaganda that they do not know the words of their own founders.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[Jayson G]

@Leo Gura I've been trying to articulate some questions for a while now, but some of them are kind of vague, but I'll give it a shot anyways: 

How is it possible that they can just get away with this? Doesn't the UN and/or other countries hold them accountable for war crimes? And from my understanding, they've been doing this for a long time before Oct 7th. 

Knowing about some very smart Israeli AI scientists, AI researchers, scientists, and economists, how can such smart people like Israeli officials be so deceived? 

Do they even know they are in the wrong? Like sometimes you can deceive yourself while still knowing on some level that you are in the wrong. 

How different is USA from Israel in terms of self-deception. I'm from the US and it hurts knowing how much USA has caused destruction around the world over the past few decades. Is the average American just as deceived and in denial about America's wrong-doings? Are we too much in the social system of USA to ever even see the true wrong-doings of USA (referring partly to your blog post about understanding social systems). 

Will Israel face justice for what they have done ever? I think it's just not fair what they are doing to Palestinians. And you say that they will face terror from some potential terrorists in the future, and I honestly don't wish hurt on anyone. But when I say justice, I mean will the officials go to jail? Will these Israeli officials be charged at all? 

Also I'm trying to articulate this, but I can't do justice here: What are the bigger implications of this self-deception? I know this is a vague question, but I'm trying to understand why this is so important to have made a whole thread on it with tons of videos? Is there any larger implications of what this self-deception of Israel will lead to in the future, or what it's causing now besides this war? What does it generally mean, this self-deception? 

You don't have to answer all these questions of course. I think I asked too much here. I'm just curious on your overall thoughts here. 

Edited October 12 by Jayson G

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They ain't gonna get that without proper government. Which they will not get because they will not get a state and no control over their own security.

Security is the foundation for everything else. And security is the one thing Israel categorically refuses to grant them.

This whole conflict is about security.

The US cannot force a state on them without Israeli concession or going to war with Israel, since Israel has its military occupying the area.

The best the US can do is stop funding and arming Israel and impose sanctions. But we all know that's not gonna happen.

Currently the Israeli government actually works with the PLO in the West Bank for security. And a hostage negotiator said Hamas told him they’re willing to give up power to a third party. So they could have a state without handing security to Palestinians.

Israel would not be able to continue the war or occupation without US aid and definitely not with US sanctions. The second the US stops supporting it they’d have no choice. 

[royce]

This feature length investigation by Al Jazeera’s Investigative Unit exposes Israeli war crimes in the Gaza Strip through the medium of photos and videos posted online by Israeli soldiers themselves during the year long conflict.

The I-Unit has built up a database of thousands of videos, photos and social media posts. Where possible it has identified the posters and those who appear.

The material reveals a range of illegal activities, from wanton destruction and looting to the demolition of entire neighbourhoods and murder.

The film also tells the story of the war through the eyes of Palestinian journalists, human rights workers and ordinary residents of the Gaza Strip. And it exposes the complicity of Western governments – in particular the use of RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus as a base for British surveillance flights over Gaza.

“The west cannot hide, they cannot claim ignorance. Nobody can say they didn’t know,” says Palestinian writer, Susan Abulhawa.This is “the first livestream genocide in history … If people are ignorant they are wilfully ignorant,” she says

 

 

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What's amazing is that modern Israelis are so brainwashed with their own propaganda that they do not know the words of their own founders.

Yes in the past there were several quite decent and more evolved leaders in key functions. The Likud has turned to a joke under Netanyahu so today they are all pawns.

Edited October 12 by Nivsch

[zazen]

13 hours ago, hundreth said:

And yet, everything he said is also true. Which makes it especially toxic.

This is amazingly insightful, but shows how hopeless the situation is. At the end of the day neither side will accept a two state solution and this is a war between two people who believe the land is theirs.

Sad to see most are against it. It’s almost as if the solution has to be imposed by international players as a last resort. But like Leo said, that means the US going against Israel’s military which will never happen.

That’s what bugs me with this whole situation - I almost feel more disappointed in the US than Israel. Whilst Israel is pulling the trigger, US is loading the gun. And that’s all fine if the gun is used for actual defence but when it so clearly isn’t and hasn’t been for a long enough time, they still do. 

Israels like a drunk friend who got into a fight and wants revenge on the guy that K.O’d him at the bar. He goes on a rampage shooting up the whole bar and the more sober friend being America who is distant enough to clearly see the situation just keeps giving him the bullets.

Then again, the US elite have a vested interest in this flaring up also without suffering the loss of life Israelis themselves may have to. It’s mutually beneficial for the few, but mutually destructive for the many.
 

@royce That Gaza doc is shocking. It’s one thing watching atrocities drip fed over the course of a year, but seeing them all compiled like that is something else. How anyone can be on the fence after a year is mind boggling.

Edited October 12 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

How anyone can be on the fence after a year is mind boggling.

1) They never look at the evidence.

2) Al Jazeera is automatically dismissed by Zionists as "biased" Hamas propaganda.

It's a perfect example of an epistemic bubble or paradigm-lock.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

 

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) They never look at the evidence.

2) Al Jazeera is automatically dismissed by Zionists as "biased" Hamas propaganda.

It's a perfect example of an epistemic bubble or paradigm-lock.

Al jazeera is obviously biased though. They are a qatari channel. Qatar has issues with human rights, corruption etc. You don’t see them talking about that or criticising their government.

[Nemra]

I would say that Al Jazeera has an Islamic bias.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I would say that Al Jazeera has an Islamic bias.

It’s like Russia Today for example which is good at pointing out the bs in other countries and cultures but not their own.

The news channel in my country and most European for example point out the crap in other countries but also especially here.

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Al jazeera is obviously biased though.

Al Jazeera has some of the best reporting and coverage of Gaza and Israel out of all new media channels.

The reason Zionists hate it is because it is truthful and deconstructs their self-righteous fantasies.

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They are a qatari channel. Qatar has issues with human rights, corruption etc. You don’t see them talking about that or criticising their government.

I don't need Al Jazeera to to criticize Qatar. Qatar is an irrelevant nation on the world stage. If I want criticism of them I can go elsewhere.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Al Jazeera has some of the best reporting and coverage of Gaza and Israel out of all new media channels.

The reason Zionists hate it is because it is truthful and deconstructs their self-righteous fantasies.

I don't need Al Jazeera to to criticize Qatar. Qatar is an irrelevant nation on the world stage. If I want criticism of them I can go elsewhere.

Not necessarily.

They have a lot of money.

https://amp.dw.com/en/qatargate-one-year-on-eu-cash-for-influence-scandal-still-far-from-over/a-67670541

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Not necessarily.

They have a lot of money.

https://amp.dw.com/en/qatargate-one-year-on-eu-cash-for-influence-scandal-still-far-from-over/a-67670541

I don't deny any of that. They bribed the World Cup. But it has nothing to do with the quality of their journalists.

Edited October 12 by Leo Gura

[Hatfort]

Al Jazeera is making a good coverage of the war, I check it sometimes. It has an Arab name and that's triggering for many in the West, especially since 9/11. The best is to take a look, it's a good place to follow what's happening.

https://www.aljazeera.com/

[PurpleTree]

12 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Al Jazeera is making a good coverage of the war, I check it sometimes. It has an Arab name and that's triggering for many in the West, especially since 9/11. The best is to take a look, it's a good place to follow what's happening.

https://www.aljazeera.com/

Dude i explained why it’s biased, has nothing to do with the name.