Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Nivsch]

16 hours ago, zazen said:

The idea or ideal of a chosen people gave moral cover to European settlers in the new Americas and set the tone for justifying their “manifest density” - that they are divinely ordained to expand and claim land. This is where Israel and America are similar, except that America has fulfilled its manifestation (domestically) and Israel hasn’t - though this same attitude still causes America to seek and maintain global hegemony which is why critics claim America or ‘the West’ hasn’t evolved from its colonial days. Or if it has, it has only evolved along the horizontal plane of the material world and not the moral plane of the vertical. Its lopsided development, that they flaunt as progress and superiority. America started with genocide, and its chapter as a global hegemon ends with being complicit in a plausible genocide.

I still don't understand this activism game against US and Israel going on here.

Sure it is fair to understand all the West's flaws and immaturity and mistakes, to investigate those and learn from.

But when doing so in an emotional, extrapolated, generalized manner, do we really go according to those tier 2 values we appreciate so much? Do we really spread Light and understanding?

Do we really help the sides to soften and the peace to come faster? Or that we just fall to the very similar traps at the end of the day?

Edited October 10 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

 

[Alex4]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Native Americans were genocided. We acknowledge that. Now your turn. 

I don't think the word "genocide" is the most accurate, I would rather say it was an extermination.

I know the history of the Spanish conquistadors quite well, and there was no deliberate or even centralized plan to exterminate the natives, although in many cases it happened due to viruses, wars, marginalization of the indigenous people, which led them to not reproduce or commit suicide, etc. 

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, Alex4 said:

there was no deliberate or even centralized plan to exterminate the natives

Spoken like a true Zionist

[Alex4]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Spoken like a true Zionist

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

I honestly believe you are wrong here, but you've mind fucked me so many times before that I'm not completely confident I have the truth on this.

What I can tell you is that I have come to this conclusion after reading history from serious English historians and accounts from conquistadors, not hearsay from bullshit spanish nationalistic pseudohistorians.

Edited October 10 by Alex4

[Leo Gura]

@Alex4 And a crocodile has no centralized plan to eat you. 

Edited October 10 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I still don't understand this activism game against US and Israel going on here.

Sure it is fair to understand all the West's flaws and immaturity and mistakes, to investigate those and learn from.

But when doing so in such emotional, extrapolated, generalized manner, do we really go according to those tier 2 values we appreciate so much? Do we really spread Light and understanding?

Do we really help the sides to soften and the peace to come faster? Or that we just fall to the very similar traps at the end of the day?

When there is moral bankruptcy, there is a place for moral anger to be used in the form of charged language that helps draw attention to injustices caused by that moral bankruptcy. Speaking with some emotion rather than as a robot also keeps readers engaged long enough to get to the point of why that injustice is wrong. We can talk about tier 1 and 2 or on the countless tears and misery caused by those injustices and how to make them stop.

I was responding with the same energy to Gennadiy1981 who was saying Americans should be ashamed of living on stolen land from Native Indians. I want to highlight that if he can see that as a shameful act done in the past, why can't he also see how its shameful for Israeli's to be doing similar acts (not the exact same) in the present. So Americans should be ashamed for acts they didn't commit, that are behind them in the past and that a lot of their society have acknowledged as wrong, but Israeli's shouldn't be ashamed of actions their society is currently committing in the present moment that they can actually help stop?

One thing many Americans are increasingly ashamed of and enraged by is not so much that their country was found on ethnic cleansing but that their country is fully facilitating and backing one right now. Stage green and leftists misplace their compassion and become too self loathing about past wrong doings but at least they resist present wrong doings.

As highlighted in your post, the past should be learned from. 

As for why I focus on the US and by extension Israel - I'm focusing on the worlds largest military power, responsible for the most extensive and destructive network of wars, interventions and occupations in modern times. To make matters worse, its own population is subject to such sophisticated propaganda which is only starting to get shredded today thanks to social media. The cognitive dissonance imposed upon the American people is akin to mental abuse - to virtue signal to the world about values that it itself doesn't even embody. The hypocrisy and lack of integrity is not only sickening, it isn't even pragmatically in the US's favor as the worlds power dynamics shift towards multi polarity and regional rising players are beginning to challenge its hegemony.

Israel is a much smaller player but serves as a linchpin for US interests in the Middle east - one of the most critical strategically placed, resource rich, demographically rich regions in the world which is a geographic bridge between East and West. This region was destabilized in the name of defense, at devastating human cost. But it wasn't defense, it was domination dressed up as defense. It was bombed into the stone age, the irony being that the ones doing it seem to be acting with a stone age mentality of barbarism, just with shinier gadgets which they think make them 'civilized'. They think giving minority rights domestically and proudly waving the colorful LGBT flag, entitles them to dominate majority of the world who they expect will submit to their domination with a pasty white flag. Israel and the US are each others insurance, they help each other in their plausible deniability for their actions. The US says their helping their ally in the region whilst dominating that region, and Israel name drops the US as its back up so no one messes with them. Netenyahu boasted in his UN speech that the 'long arm of Israel can reach anywhere' but it isn't Israels long arm, its Americas.

Ignoring the US while talking about global injustice is ignoring the elephant in the room. 

Edited October 10 by zazen

[Alex M]

On 09/10/2024 at 10:12 AM, Leo Gura said:

Boris Johnson says Netanyahu bugged his bathroom:

https://www.axios.com/2024/10/04/netanyahu-bathroom-bugged-boris-johnson-uk

This is not high quality, it's like quoting Trump. Boris is a pathological liar.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Alex M said:

This is not high quality, it's like quoting Trump. Boris is a pathological liar.

Strange thing to lie about.

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Alex4 said:

I know the history of the Spanish conquistadors quite well, and there was no deliberate or even centralized plan to exterminate the natives, although in many cases it happened due to viruses, wars, marginalization of the indigenous people, which led them to not reproduce or commit suicide, etc. 

Could you tell more about the Spanish? Their sub groups and agendas? And what do you think is the reason the extreme way has took over eventually?

Edited October 10 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

53 minutes ago, zazen said:

When there is moral bankruptcy, there is a place for moral anger to be used in the form of charged language that helps draw attention to injustices caused by that moral bankruptcy. Speaking with some emotion rather than as a robot also keeps readers engaged long enough to get to the point of why that injustice is wrong. We can talk about tier 1 and 2 or on the countless tears and misery caused by those injustices and how to make them stop.

Yeah emotional expressions are necessary sometimes but from a given treshold there is a place to ask what in ME makes me push this so strongly and in such non-nuanced way? 

For example say I take what hamas did and extrapolate it too loosely to the Palestinians (what I did in the past) you will claim, and rightly so, that what I do isn't just, and that me myself contribute to the same darkness I pretend to shout against.

Edited October 10 by Nivsch

[Alex M]

56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Strange thing to lie about.

He's got a new book to pedal, so he'll come out with anything to get a bit of coverage. He's told that much BS and it's hard to define the truth that comes out of his mouth. Like I said, a bit like Trump.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Alex M said:

He's got a new book to pedal, so he'll come out with anything to get a bit of coverage. He's told that much BS and it's hard to define the truth that comes out of his mouth. Like I said, a bit like Trump.

You make a fair point. Still, it seems to fit Netanyahu like a glove.

[Alex M]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You make a fair point. Still, it seems to fit Netanyahu like a glove.

Oh, it really wouldn't surprise me in the slightest (it would fit there, MO). But I do take everything BJ says with a pinch of salt.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Alex M said:

Oh, it really wouldn't surprise me in the slightest (it would fit there, MO). But I do take everything BJ says with a pinch of salt.

It's odd to make up such a blatant lie and ruin a friendship over it. I think if Boris just made it up out thin air Netanyahu would be pretty upset with him over it. I would think Boris is more savvy than that, to not needlessly burn bridges.

But who knows.

[Leo Gura]

This is amazing work. Wow!

 

The founders of Israel themselves called it "cleansing" of Arabs. Case closed.

Edited October 10 by Leo Gura

[Alex4]

50 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Could you tell more about the Spanish? Their sub groups and agendas? And what do you think is the reason the extreme way has took over eventually?

Most of the conquistadors came from low nobility, good lineage, but poor. Many had no future in Spain, and some were even criminals who had their sentences pardoned in exchange for going to America. Religious started arriving in big numbers later and played a big role in reducing the exploitation of indigenous people, often clashing with landowners who mistreated indians. Meanwhile, the spanish crown sent officials to oversee, they considered the indigenous people as citizens, just like Christians in Castile (largely because they would pay taxes).

The problem was that the crown also demanded wealth to fund wars in Europe, so the conquistadors if they wanted to be rich and gain royal recognition, had little choice but to enslave indigenous people for cheap labor in agriculture or mining. Spain did pass laws to limit or prohibit abuse, but by the time royal emissaries arrived It had already been a long time, also a common response from the conquistadors was, "I obey but I do not comply." America was simply too far away for effective control. 

The most violent phase of the conquest was early on, up until the mid-16th century. It's easy to see why things got so brutal: first, the people who went to the Americas weren't the best of Spanish society. Second, they were far from Spain without supervision. Third, they were incredibly greedy, to a level that’s hard to grasp. Fourth, and often overlooked, the Spanish were actually a minority and conquered with the help of indigenous allies, but they never fully trusted them and lived in constant paranoia. The indigenous people were skilled at plotting conspiracies against the Spaniards. At any sign that the Indians were conspiring to kill them, the Spanish would strike first, killing them treacherously.

 

 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Yeah emotional expressions are necessary sometimes but from a given treshold there is a place to ask what in ME makes me push this so strongly and in such non-nuanced way? 

For example say I take what hamas did and extrapolate it too loosely to the Palestinians (what I did in the past) you will claim, and rightly so, that what I do isn't just, and that me myself contribute to the same darkness I pretend to shout against.

I get you. Its just that its easier and more efficient to say'' the West'' or  ''Israel'' or ''China'' when referring to the actions of the government rather than always having to write Western Elites or the deep state. When people critique countries, cultures or civilizations theirs usually a shared assumption that they're referring to the actions of the state or ruling classes within them. I personally have family in both Israel and US, so I don't mean to generalize that all Westerners and Israeli's are complicit in the crimes or flaws I point out.

I think a question can be asked though, at what point is the society to blame and not just the state or elites? That gets complex. I also think a distinction can be made where you can call a state a terrorist state but not the society that state governs over. Check this new clip going around of Smotrich claiming Israel can encompass Jordan and Syria (correct the translation if wrong?). This is currently who's in government.

This plan and what we have seen the past decades up to now aligns  with ''A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm (commonly known as the "Clean Break" report)'' which is a policy document prepared in 1996 by a study group led by Richard Perle for Benjamin Netanyahu. Richard Perle was ''A key advisor to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in the Bush administration, Perle was an architect of the Iraq War.'' (Source: Wiki).

Here's some information on it:

''The report explained a new approach to solving Israel's security problems in the Middle East with an emphasis on "Western values." It has since been criticized for advocating an aggressive new policy including the removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and the containment of Syria by engaging in proxy warfare and highlighting its possession of "weapons of mass destruction".

''Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq—an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right—as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions.''

''It is understandable that Israel has an interest supporting diplomatically, militarily and operationally Turkey’s and Jordan’s actions against Syria, such as securing tribal alliances with Arab tribes that cross into Syrian territory and are hostile to the Syrian ruling elite.''

''Ian Buruma wrote in August 2003 in The New York Times that:

Douglas Feith and Richard Perle advised Netanyahu, who was prime minister in 1996, to make "a clean break" from the Oslo accords with the Palestinians. They also argued that Israeli security would be served best by regime change in surrounding countries. Despite the current mess in Iraq, this is still a commonplace in Washington. In Paul Wolfowitz's words, "The road to peace in the Middle East goes through Baghdad." It has indeed become an article of faith (literally in some cases) in Washington that American and Israeli interests are identical, but this was not always so, and "Jewish interests" are not the main reason for it now.

What we see, then, is not a Jewish conspiracy, but a peculiar alliance of evangelical Christians, foreign-policy hard-liners, lobbyists for the Israeli government and neoconservatives, a number of whom happen to be Jewish. But the Jews among them—Perle, Wolfowitz, William Kristol, editor of The Weekly Standard, et al.—are more likely to speak about freedom and democracy than about Halakha (Jewish law). What unites this alliance of convenience is a shared vision of American destiny and the conviction that American force and a tough Israeli line on the Arabs are the best ways to make the United States strong, Israel safe and the world a better place..''

 

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

I personally have family in both Israel and US, so I don't mean to generalize that all Westerners and Israeli's are complicit in the crimes or flaws I point out.

Nice. You visit here so sometimes?

[Basman]

On 08/10/2024 at 3:43 PM, Leo Gura said:

Of course it's not from bad intentions. Self-bias and self-deception mean that people who do the most evil things think they are saving the world from Satan.

The reasons Israelis commit such atrocities is precisely because they think of themselves as the good guys and heroes, without considering that that narrative is a self-deception, which of course, it is.

Thinking of yourself as good is the ultimate moral self-deception. The #1 thing to realize in the domain of morality is that you are not good, you are evil. Without this realization no serous morality is possible. This is exactly what Israelis refuse to do. Everyone is evil. It's just a question of whether you're conscious of it or not. Evil isn't bad intentions, it's good intentions blinded by self-bias.

I can't remember which philosopher said it, but the basic idea was that an action isn't inherently ethical without first wanting to do an unethical act. Doing something because you think you should do it without acknowledging the desire to be "evil" isn't being ethical according to this logic.