Playlist For Understanding Israel Deception

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But Israeli bias is both cartoonish and sly at the same time. It comes in many sneaky and subtle forms.

Isn't most of it out of fear and just not knowing better?

For example before this war I still thought about the conflict in a more dichotomic way. Even though I wanted Two State solution I still thought on WB in security lens only, in a way that we just need to defend ourselves from the treats come from there.

I mean, it was only partially true, but it wasn't from bad intentions at all.

Edited October 8 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

but it wasn't from bad intentions at all.

Of course it's not from bad intentions. Self-bias and self-deception mean that people who do the most evil things think they are saving the world from Satan.

The reasons Israelis commit such atrocities is precisely because they think of themselves as the good guys and heroes, without considering that that narrative is a self-deception, which of course, it is.

Thinking of yourself as good is the ultimate moral self-deception. The #1 thing to realize in the domain of morality is that you are not good, you are evil. Without this realization no serous morality is possible. This is exactly what Israelis refuse to do. Everyone is evil. It's just a question of whether you're conscious of it or not. Evil isn't bad intentions, it's good intentions blinded by self-bias.

Edited October 8 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course it's not from bad intentions. Self-bias and self-deception mean that people who do the most evil things think they are saving the world from Satan.

The reasons Israelis commit such atrocities is precisely because they think of themselves as the good guys and heroes, without considering that that narrative is a self-deception, which of course, it is.

Thinking of yourself as good is the ultimate moral self-deception. The #1 thing to realize in the domain of morality is that you are not good, you are evil. Without this realization no serous morality is possible. This is exactly what Israelis refuse to do.

How about you are not good nor evil. Those are just ideas.

[Nivsch]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The reasons Israelis commit such atrocities is precisely because they think of themselves as the good guys and heroes

And why their bias is more triggering and difficult to you, then the other side's biases?

Because you expect much more from the Israeli side to be the 'mature adult'?

When I argue with Right wingers in some Whatsapp group, I feel often anger on them because I expect they would think more broadly on the situation whereas on the Palestinians I am not angry because I am not identify with them so I don't expect.

Edited October 8 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

How about you are not good nor evil. Those are just ideas.

How about you are evil.

Nice try.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

And why their bias is more triggering and difficult to you, then the other side's biased?

It's not triggering, it's eye-opening and educational.

The domination of a people is not two sides with two biases.

Edited October 8 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not triggering, it's eye-opening.

The domination of a people is not two sides with two biases.

The Palestinians see IDF soldiers as evil but they can't see that a big part of what IDF is doing is becasue of fear from the terror the extremists among them do against Israelis. Its a strange loop.

Edited October 8 by Nivsch

[Inliytened1]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course it's not from bad intentions. Self-bias and self-deception mean that people who do the most evil things think they are saving the world from Satan.

The reasons Israelis commit such atrocities is precisely because they think of themselves as the good guys and heroes, without considering that that narrative is a self-deception, which of course, it is.

Thinking of yourself as good is the ultimate moral self-deception. The #1 thing to realize in the domain of morality is that you are not good, you are evil. Without this realization no serous morality is possible. This is exactly what Israelis refuse to do. Everyone is evil. It's just a question of whether you're conscious of it or not. Evil isn't bad intentions, it's good intentions blinded by self-bias.

Exactly.  And you have this on all sides at various degrees.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

Its a strange loop.

It's not so strange. They were ethnically cleansed. Ethnic cleansing isn't free, it comes with fallout.

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not so strange. They were ethnically cleansed. Ethnic cleansing isn't free, it comes with fallout.

Even that came after both sides escalated each other for 30 years from the 1920's and what Ben Gurion did was of course unjustified but after such long time of such ping pong, both sides will be much less moral to one another and won't be at all in the same state of consciousness they were in at the 1920s.

Edited October 8 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How about you are evil.

Nice try.

Unfortunately there seemingly isn’t even a me to be evil nor good.

Forgive them for they know not what they do for they are mere automatons.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Even that came after both sides escalated each other for 30 years from the 1920's and what Ben Gurion did was of course unjustified but after such long time of such ping pong, both sides will be much less moral to one another and won't be at all in the same state of consciousness they were in at the 1920s.

I am not interested in debating that. That doesn't lead to a serious understanding of this issue.

[Inliytened1]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not triggering, it's eye-opening and educational.

The domination of a people is not two sides with two biases.

It's not been completely one sided.  There have been proposed offerings at making Palestinians citizens of Israel but many Palestinians want an independent state and Israel is not obligated to do that.

Edited October 8 by Inliytened1

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not interested in debating that. That doesn't lead to a serious understanding of this issue.

Which way will be better?

And why this way won't help to seriously understand the issue?

Edited October 8 by Nivsch

[zazen]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

It's not been completely one sided.  There have been attempts at making Palestinians citizens of Israel but many Palestinians want an independent state and Israel is not obligated to do that.

Is a occupier balanced with who he occupies? Is a business owner in balance with who works for him?

Is a person with a rock and a person with a gun equally responsible for the violence they commit between one another?

The problem isn't that Palestinians want a state, the problem is Israel obstructing them from one which is their right by law. If you win the lottery for a million dollars and I get in the way of you receiving that million dollars - am I right or wrong for doing so?

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

Is a occupier balanced with who he occupies? Is a business owner in balance with who works for him?

Is a person with a rock and a person with a gun equally responsible for the violence they commit between one another?

The problem isn't that Palestinians want a state, the problem is Israel obstructing them from one which is their right by law. If you win the lottery for a million dollars and I get in the way of you receiving that million dollars - am I right or wrong for doing so?

Valid points but look at it from both perspectives from Israel's perspective they are protecting what is theirs.  I agree it can be seen as oppression but as what was pointed out is from their perspective are the intentions to oppress? I don't think so.  Is it deception to want to protect what they have annexed?  I think it's wrong to turn a blind eye to the blood they are spilling now. That part is deception because Netanyahu doesn't want to acknowledge that what he is doing now is wrong so he is fooling himself in that regard or worse yet he doesn't even know it.

[Dryas]

I know this is meant to be an anti-Israel thread but can't help but cite reasonable voices on the other side.

@Leo Gura Have you seen Destiny's debates on the matter? Highly recommend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa_kjk5zeE8

Further:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amz2Sf1JMDE

I think Benny Morris makes some good points here while Mehdi is just going for gotchas and his arguments are rather weak.

[Lyubov]

47 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It's not been completely one sided.  There have been proposed offerings at making Palestinians citizens of Israel but many Palestinians want an independent state and Israel is not obligated to do that.

Categorically false. Israel never has had any intention to make the Palestinians a part of their country. Their right wing does not allow for that and the left wing knows how untenable that is. It’s a Jewish state by their own definition. The demographics would completely change if they did that and Israel claims it’s a democracy. How do you imagine elections being held with a majority of Palestinians voting now? They want an apartheid state, to greatly limit the rights of Palestinians through military force, and to slowly ethnically clean the original inhabitants off the stolen land that is now called Israel. 

[Inliytened1]

28 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Categorically false. Israel never has had any intention to make the Palestinians a part of their country. Their right wing does not allow for that and the left wing knows how untenable that is. It’s a Jewish state by their own definition. The demographics would completely change if they did that and Israel claims it’s a democracy. How do you imagine elections being held with a majority of Palestinians voting now? They want an apartheid state, to greatly limit the rights of Palestinians through military force, and to slowly ethnically clean the original inhabitants off the stolen land that is now called Israel. 

Why don't you twist the dagger next time and stick it in a litter deeper.

You really paint a dark picture of who the Jewish people are or have become.  I think there are some who would disagree with you.  

But I hate to see this.  It's sad.   

All i can hope for is change.

Edited October 8 by Inliytened1

[Karmadhi]

12 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

when they massacred 1500 Jews. 

Stop using fake numbers.

I already called you out once.

The true number is 1139 and from these 695 civilians.

Out of the 695 some were killed by Israel themselves.

Most likely Hamas killed 500 civilians or so.

So not 1500 but 500 people were killed which should not have been killed.

The soldiers are fair game in war.

500 is 1/3 of 1500. So stop with propaganda numbers please.

500 in a single day is still pretty bad, even though Israel did the same in Gaza every day for weeks afterwards and then in Lebanon some weeks ago.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths

Here is a source as proof.

Edited October 8 by Karmadhi