How Is Definitive Knowledge Possible?

[Princess Arabia]

12 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

If I go blind and deaf right now, is it that the visual and auditory world doesn’t exist or that I do not have access to those senses?

Think about this: There are senses that you do not have access to right now, which is called ESP. How would you know it exists? Would it be true to say that ESP doesn’t exist because you don’t experience it? It would be foolish for a person born blind and deaf to say that sight and sound doesn’t exist. They may not have access to sight and sound, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. What if we are all blind to an objective reality or ESP? We would be fools to say that the qualia we have now is all reality is. That is a fallacy. It is more accurate to say that the qualia we have is what we currently have access to and we can’t know if we have full access to all the senses/perceptions possible.

These are the kinds of arguments and questions and inquiries that come up when we are clueless as to what is really happening in reality. They come up as "what ifs" and "think about this" and "would it be true" and "how would you know" questions.

If I go blind and deaf, does the auditory world exist. If I lose my taste buds, does the taste world exist, and so on. There is no you tasting and seeing and smelling and hearing anything. These apparent senses are tricks to allow for a human experience. An experience that's not really happening only appearing to. When I speak like this, it's sounds ludicrous and unreal and however else it's being perceived. The thing is, half of our line of questionings would dissolve when we understand what is really going on beyond our reason and logic. Something that makes no sense to the human mind. Something that cannot be perceived. 

A blind or deaf man hasn't lost anything because we're not really seeing or hearing anything either. It's  just an appearance; meaning it's not really happening. It's like the ears are just there - doing nothing. Hard for the mind to fathom. I hear from ears too, or seemingly so, so this is not to say I'm not having that experience. All I'm saying is when we really understand the truth of what is, certain line of reasoning falls away and those inquiries doesn't even enter the mind when speaking about how reality works allowing for other inquiries to arise and form a chain reaction where we can start to see clearly what is actually going on and slowly dissolve the illusion and truly wake up. 

Not seeing through the illusion and appearances of reality will lead to a constant back and forth going round in a circle and causing us to keep chasing our own tail. If the aim is to really understand, then we have to leave behind the logical mind and start to operate from the top down. Seeing yourself as a human inside a physical reality that is actually moving and one has to navigate through it to survive by means of the senses and survival mechanisms will never get you to a point of truly seeing reality as it actually is and keep you in the illusion. Hope that was clear.

Edited October 6 by Princess Arabia

[Ishanga]

9 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

These are the kinds of arguments and questions and inquiries that come up when we are clueless as to what is really happening in reality. They come up as "what ifs" and "think about this" and "would it be true" and "how would you know" questions.

If I go blind and deaf, does the auditory world exist. If I lose my taste buds, does the taste world exist, and so on. There is no you tasting and seeing and smelling and hearing anything. These apparent senses are tricks to allow for a human experience. An experience that's not really happening only appearing to. When I speak like this, it's sounds ludicrous and unreal and however else it's being perceived. The thing is, half of our line of questionings would dissolve when we understand what is really going on beyond our reason and logic. Something that makes no sense to the human mind. Something that cannot be perceived. 

A blind or deaf man hasn't lost anything because we're not really seeing or hearing anything either. It's  just an appearance; meaning it's not really happening. It's like the ears are just there - doing nothing. Hard for the mind to fathom. I hear from ears too, or seemingly so, so this is not to say I'm not having that experience. All I'm saying is when we really understand the truth of what is, certain line of reasoning falls away and those inquiries doesn't even enter the mind when speaking about how reality works allowing for other inquiries to arise and form a chain reaction where we can start to see clearly what is actually going on and slowly dissolve the illusion and truly wake up. 

Not seeing through the illusion and appearances of reality will lead to a constant back and forth going round in a circle and causing us to keep chasing our own tail. If the aim is to really understand, then we have to leave behind the logical mind and start to operate from the top down. Seeing yourself as a human inside a physical reality that is actually moving and one has to navigate through it to survive by means of the senses and survival mechanisms will never get you to a point of truly seeing reality as it actually is and keep you in the illusion. Hope that was clear.

Let me ask You, where does "Appearance" happen, what is "Appearance" and is it important?

You keep on mentioning that Nothing is Happening, but only in "Appearance", but if its happening in "Appearance" then it is happening on some sort of level correct? 

I would say that its happening on the level of Experience, which happens on the level of Form...

Reena on her Journal posted this picture, it sort of explains it, it goes from Absolute to Form level, is all of this Real or is just Absolute Real and everything else "Appearance" or what?

Also if you notice there is level V or 5, Maya/Illusion, Maya does not mean nothing exists, it means it exists but not as You think or perceive it to be, big difference here...

 

Edited October 6 by Ishanga

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Ishanga said:

Let me ask You, where does "Appearance" happen, what is "Appearance" and is it important?

You keep on mentioning that Nothing is Happening, but only in "Appearance", but if its happening in "Appearance" then it is happening on some sort of level correct? 

I would say that its happening on the level of Experience, which happens on the level of Form...

Reena on her Journal posted this picture, it sort of explains it, it goes from Absolute to Form level, is all of this Real or is just Absolute Real and everything else "Appearance" or what?

 

What I mean is this and I'll use the analogy of the TV.

When you're watching a movie are the actors actually there acting and the plot actually happening there right in your experience, no. It's an appearance of actors and a plot and lights camera action. Where is all this taking place, on a screen that's not actually moving. The TV is still but the car driving in it is moving, that's an appearance. Every event, circumstance, story,etc, is being shown on that one screen called a TV. Nothing is going anywhere, there is no past or future there. 

You might say, well that movie did take place in real life where the actors were really at a place recording the movie, but that is your story and it's being imagined. 

Reality is like that. 

[Hojo]

 

12 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

If I go blind and deaf right now, is it that the visual and auditory world doesn’t exist or that I do not have access to those senses?

Think about this: There are senses that you do not have access to right now, which is called ESP. How would you know it exists? Would it be true to say that ESP doesn’t exist because you don’t experience it? It would be foolish for a person born blind and deaf to say that sight and sound doesn’t exist. They may not have access to sight and sound, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. What if we are all blind to an objective reality or ESP? We would be fools to say that the qualia we have now is all reality is. That is a fallacy. It is more accurate to say that the qualia we have is what we currently have access to and we can’t know if we have full access to all the senses/perceptions possible.

If you went blind and the you were sitting there and someone hit you with a baseball bat what actually happened was a massive force hit your force field not a baseball bat a random surge of energy hit you. Then there will be sounds of people saying it was a baseball bat but there isnt one.

Edited October 6 by Hojo

[Ishanga]

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

What I mean is this and I'll use the analogy of the TV.

When you're watching a movie are the actors actually there acting and the plot actually happening there right in your experience, no. It's an appearance of actors and a plot and lights camera action. Where is all this taking place, on a screen that's not actually moving. The TV is still but the car driving in it is moving, that's an appearance. Every event, circumstance, story,etc, is being shown on that one screen called a TV. Nothing is going anywhere, there is no past or future there. 

You might say, well that movie did take place in real life where the actors were really at a place recording the movie, but that is your story and it's being imagined. 

Reality is like that. 

Ok, I would put that in the class of Maya/Illusion, the TV is giving us the effect of Movement, of a Reality taking place, when it is not really taking place, because it is actors playing a role, they are real but the situation is not real, but ppl will get so involved with it that it affects their Experience to a point that it is real for them on the Experience level, so in that sense it is Real.. 

So reality is only happening on the level of Experience, if no one is there to watch the TV or the program, then in a sense it does not exist, like the analogy of the Tree Falling and making a Sound or doesn't if no one is there to hear it..

This is Subjectivity vs Objectivity, the dilemma or paradox  is that all Your Experience is only happening within YOU, You have never experienced anything outside of You, the Experience itself is happening within You, all Your 5 senses bring in data into Your Brain that is within You, Your thoughts happen within You, your Dreams happen within You, Your Ideologies are created and happen within YOU, so in a sense You are the Center of the Universe Experientially, but there are others like You having the same paradox happening, so on the level of Form, there is a You and Me and Reality happening that is Real, on the level of Absolute this is not happening, so its Relativity at Play if Your rooted in Your own Individuality then You will experience Separateness from all Life around You, If Your Inclusive In Your Experience, all Life is within You Experientially and the same..

One is Form level of Consciousness/Awareness, the other is Absolute Level of Consciousness/Awareness, this is the whole point of Yoga and Spiritual Path, to get from one to the other Experientially! 

[r0ckyreed]

40 minutes ago, Hojo said:

 

If you went blind and the you were sitting there and someone hit you with a baseball bat what actually happened was a massive force hit your force field not a baseball bat a random surge of energy hit you. Then there will be sounds of people saying it was a baseball bat but there isnt one.

Lol. 

[r0ckyreed]

Just because you cannot disprove idealism/solipsism doesn’t make that true. Solipsism is true from our first-person point of view. But if there is a third-object reality, then your solipsism would only be true relative to your point of view. Postmodernism would say that solipsism/idealism is only one perspective out of many.

Edited October 6 by r0ckyreed

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

because it is actors playing a role, they are real but the situation is not real

No, you have missed what I'm saying. I'm not saying there are actors playing a part and because it's acting it's not real.

Try not to analyze the actors and the movie and what that is. Try to see it from the perspective of it's all on a screen appearing without an actual existence.

I will write verbatim for you an actual email I received from Sunny Sharma on this very topic. I received it on Oct 5, and was actually surprised that he was writing an email of this nature because his main thing is self-inquiry and meditation. Anyway, this email is not what I'm basing my words from as, that you already know, I've been talking like this forever. I'm sharing it so you can see and understand more clearly what I'm trying to point to here. Here goes:

Quote: " There is no doer because nothing is being done, nothing is happening. All happenings are IN appearance only. All happenings are AN appearance only.

When you go to watch a film, many things happen inside of the movie world, but the movie world, along with the character doing things within it, have no actual existence. The entire movie world is merely an appearance on the screen. When you dream at night, the whole dream world, along with the person doing things within it, have no actual existence. The entire dream world is merely an appearance in awareness.

It is the same with what we call the waking state also. A whole world with an individual doing things inside of it is an appearance only. Nothing is being done because nothing is actually happening. It is only appearing to happen.

From a point of view within the appearance, everything seems solid, legitimate and real. From the more expanded understanding, everything is only an appearance, a thought.

You may have heard Ramana Maharshi say something similar to "the world is nothing other than a thought". This is perhaps what he was pointing to. What we call experience doesn't actually exist. IT ONLY APPEARS TO EXIST. It has momentary existence, but existence is a facade. Existence is plagued with impermanence. Impermanence is the mark of UNREALITY. 

- If we read this and then ask, ok well now what do I do? How do I live? Then we have not understood this teaching. If we read this then say, everything now seems so meaningless and without purpose, then we have not understood this teaching. Do don't get entangled in those silly mental reactions to this teaching. Instead, let the teaching be an open-ended mystery and carry on with life as you feel fit. When this teaching is understood, it does not create trouble". End Quote.

Then he goes on to itemized suggested ways on how to explore the teaching and grow in it's realization.

Like I said, I didn't just come to this realization from reading this email as i've been saying stuff like this all along even using the movie analogy for a while now. Everything in reality is pointing to this. I have not been able to see anything that contradicts this yet. Infact, everything else that has to do with this topic or issue contradicts itself. This is why there are so many questions and inquiries and confusion. To me, this TV/movie analogy represents so many spiritual concepts and ideas as in, there is no separation, it's all oneness, even the idea of solipsism, creation is finished, universal laws, I mean everything spoken about this TV analogy represents it. This is why there's nothing to change or fix because it's all done and it's all perfect and it's all Absolute.

[Ishanga]

12 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

No, you have missed what I'm saying. I'm not saying there are actors playing a part and because it's acting it's not real.

Try not to analyze the actors and the movie and what that is. Try to see it from the perspective of it's all on a screen appearing without an actual existence.

I will write verbatim for you an actual email I received from Sunny Sharma on this very topic. I received it on Oct 5, and was actually surprised that he was writing an email of this nature because his main thing is self-inquiry and meditation. Anyway, this email is not what I'm basing my words from as, that you already know, I've been talking like this forever. I'm sharing it so you can see and understand more clearly what I'm trying to point to here. Here goes:

Quote: " There is no doer because nothing is being done, nothing is happening. All happenings are IN appearance only. All happenings are AN appearance only.

When you go to watch a film, many things happen inside of the movie world, but the movie world, along with the character doing things within it, have no actual existence. The entire movie world is merely an appearance on the screen. When you dream at night, the whole dream world, along with the person doing things within it, have no actual existence. The entire dream world is merely an appearance in awareness.

It is the same with what we call the waking state also. A whole world with an individual doing things inside of it is an appearance only. Nothing is being done because nothing is actually happening. It is only appearing to happen.

From a point of view within the appearance, everything seems solid, legitimate and real. From the more expanded understanding, everything is only an appearance, a thought.

You may have heard Ramana Maharshi say something similar to "the world is nothing other than a thought". This is perhaps what he was pointing to. What we call experience doesn't actually exist. IT ONLY APPEARS TO EXIST. It has momentary existence, but existence is a facade. Existence is plagued with impermanence. Impermanence is the mark of UNREALITY. 

- If we read this and then ask, ok well now what do I do? How do I live? Then we have not understood this teaching. If we read this then say, everything now seems so meaningless and without purpose, then we have not understood this teaching. Do don't get entangled in those silly mental reactions to this teaching. Instead, let the teaching be an open-ended mystery and carry on with life as you feel fit. When this teaching is understood, it does not create trouble". End Quote.

Then he goes on to itemized suggested ways on how to explore the teaching and grow in it's realization.

Like I said, I didn't just come to this realization from reading this email as i've been saying stuff like this all along even using the movie analogy for a while now. Everything in reality is pointing to this. I have not been able to see anything that contradicts this yet. Infact, everything else that has to do with this topic or issue contradicts itself. This is why there are so many questions and inquiries and confusion. To me, this TV/movie analogy represents so many spiritual concepts and ideas as in, there is no separation, it's all oneness, even the idea of solipsism, creation is finished, universal laws, I mean everything spoken about this TV analogy represents it. This is why there's nothing to change or fix because it's all done and it's all perfect and it's all Absolute.

Yes, this is the Absolute perspective, nothing is happening, no doer and such things... As I shared that poster, there is Shiva, which means "That which is Not" this is the Absolute, so that which is not is the same as Nothing is happening, no Doer and so forth, but as You go down the list there is Form, on Form level there is a doer, that is that which exists and so forth, so what is all of this?

Its all a matter of Potential, within Shiva/Absolute is all the Possibility/Potential that can ever exist, from a piece of shit, to Leo's Alien Consciousness, to whatever comes after that, all Potential, non doing, too doing, non Being to Being, and so forth...

If no Experience exists, then its just Absolute..

If Experiences exists, then its Absolute on the Level of Form..

We Humans are here on the Form Level, but we are Absolute fundamentally, as Everything is Potential being put into Form, which comes from Absolute..

You said "from this POV" often in Your post, I have no problem with No Doer, Nothing is Happening, and such, but its Relative to how Conscious one is of the Absolute and the Potentials that exist, we as Humans explore this, that is why we are here, so in relative terms there is something on the level of Form, there is doing on the level of Form, it exists on this level, when You deny it, then Your not Aware of it ALL, Absolute/Non doing/Non Being and Form/Being/Doing... One becomes One Sided, then that leads to all kinds of Situations...

 

[Ishanga]

@Princess Arabia As he said, the more we "talk" about this stuff, the more intellectual it gets, the more analysis happens then it leads us to endless debates and such, it takes us away from what he is saying and teaching/sharing..

Just notice the cyclical nature of the posts here, solipsism comes up every couple of weeks, I'm God same thing too, so it doesn't helps us really, its entertainment, which is ok in moderation and with Awareness, when those two are absent, then trouble!

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

One becomes One Sided, then that leads to all kinds of Situations...

All of your response is pointing to the illusion, the dream, the world of form. That's fine and i agree with all that. What I'm saying is it's still illusory. You keep saying, "that's why we're here". Here where? where's there? Came from where? Going where? All stories. Nothing wrong with that as I have them too; but in a discussion like this, where we're trying to discuss reality's true nature, we have to be able to differentiate the difference and to recognize it for what it is. 

The "one sided and lead to all kinds of situations" you're referring to are also just stories and illusory. I need to stress that I'm not disagreeing that this is the case where all types of problems seems to appear in life and people are all seemingly lost, delusional, confused and all that, even myself; but that is all what is appearing and is not really the case in actuality. Forget about the Absolute and how we're not living from that space and all that, that is the egoic mind trying to find a place for itself, trying to maintain it's identity because there's no separation from the Absolute.

Now, all you're saying about human and form and living and why we're here - that's the illusion and not real but seemingly so. That's all a part of the script. That's all within the realm of stories. To truly realize this, you must step out from all that and go beyond that and realize that your true nature is beyond all that and that is the only "thing" that is permanent and REAL. It is you, it is me, and everything. Everything appears from this and there is no separate being watching that TV but it is all encompassing and it's all real and unreal at the same time. So all you're saying is the case, all i'm saying is the case because you can't have the movie without the screen. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't matter because, it's all done and it cannot be any other way than it is. If it is, then that's also a part if the script. When I say script I'm referring to infinity. So, anything goes. Arguing is pointless and trying to get somewhere is pointless and also trying to tell someone they're wrong about life and such is pointless because that's also a part of the script. Even me saying it's pointless is also "pointless" because there's no point to anything. 

[Princess Arabia]

33 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

@Princess Arabia As he said, the more we "talk" about this stuff, the more intellectual it gets, the more analysis happens then it leads us to endless debates and such, it takes us away from what he is saying and teaching/sharing..

Just notice the cyclical nature of the posts here, solipsism comes up every couple of weeks, I'm God same thing too, so it doesn't helps us really, its entertainment, which is ok in moderation and with Awareness, when those two are absent, then trouble!

Yes, but this only comes to mind when one is trying to get somewhere and be helped (in this context, that is, not for practical stuff like a project). You will see something more important than the next and say it doesn't help because there is an avoidance of what is and disliking the movie that's being played. When that happens in real life, all we do is switch to another movie or watch something else. In reality, what the mind does is judge and criticize the movie and complain about the movie and say the movie isn't helping them, instead of just jumping to another script. How that's done is through the imagination. Leave alone what we don't like and focus on what we do like, THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. We are infinity here to experience that part of infinity as we so choose - not complain and judge and criticize it. That's the true nature of the illusion. That's the purpose of life. For life to experience itself.  We maneuver that with programming, thoughts and beliefs. That's how it works.

Edited October 6 by Princess Arabia

[Ishanga]

@Princess Arabia We're going around in circles okay...

We are communicating, so that means its on a level of understanding, if we were telepathically communicating then there are no words, I just know what You are and You know what I am, so that is "Another Level" Okay..

Absolute realization, as You say above is the Ultimate, its the same as Moksha, Liberation, Enlightenment, its what the whole Point  of Spirituality, Non dualism, God Realization, whatever label..

We can live in that place, but not within a society, Your Not Going to be in God Realization Experience while driving a car, it won't work, do You drive a car, does Sunny drive a Car? One can be Blissful and/or Peaceful while driving the car, but not in God Realization, its like a hit of 5 MeoDmt, it doesn't work together..

So when home alone or you escape society, then God Realization is it, that is what we are here to experience, but what I am saying is the denying the Car Driving is also Illusionary/Maya, why is God Realization/Absolute the only thing? Why does Sunny post videos and reply to emails? It doesn't exist, its not real, then why? Because it is real on a level, that is the constant discussion, one be in God Realization/Absolute all they want, but they cannot exist in a society, work, sleep, pay bills, and so on which on a level is just as Real!

Your posts are all about the Absolute Realization, but there is here the forum, ppl have situations, others console them and this is happening on this non Absolute level Experientially...

Edited October 6 by Ishanga

[Ishanga]

2 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Yes, but this only comes to mind when one is trying to get somewhere and be helped (in this context, that is, not for practical stuff like a project). You will see something more important than the next and say it doesn't help because there is an avoidance of what is and disliking the movie that's being played. When that happens in real life, all we do is switch to another movie or watch something else. In reality, what the mind does is judge and criticize the movie and complain about the movie and say the movie isn't helping them, instead of just jumping go another script. How that's done is through the imagination. Leave alone what we don't like and focus on what we do like, THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. We are infinity here to experience that part of infinity as we so choose - not complain and judge and criticize it. That's the true nature of the illusion. That's the purpose of life. For life to experience itself.  We maneuver that with programming, thoughts and beliefs. That's how it works.

Yes totally! For Absolute/Life to know itself!

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Ishanga said:

@Princess Arabia We're going around in circles okay...

We are communicating, so that means its on a level of understanding, if we were telepathically communicating then there are no words, I just know what You are and You know what I am, so that is "Another Level" Okay..

Absolute realization, as You say above is the Ultimate, its the same as Moksha, Liberation, Enlightenment, its what the whole Point  of Spirituality, Non dualism, God Realization, whatever label..

We can live in that place, but not within a society, Your Not Going to be in God Realization Experience while driving a car, it won't work, do You drive a car, does Sunny drive a Car? One can be Blissful and/or Peaceful while driving the car, but not in God Realization, its like a hit of 5 MeoDmt, it doesn't work together..

So when home alone or you escape society, then God Realization is it, that is what we are here to experience, but what I am saying is the denying the Car Driving is also Illusionary/Maya, why is God Realization/Absolute the only thing? Why does Sunny post videos and reply to emails? It doesn't exist, its not real, then why? Because it is real on a level, that is the constant discussion, one be in God Realization/Absolute all they want, but they cannot exist in a society, work, sleep, pay bills, and so on which on a level is just as Real!

Your posts are all about the Absolute Realization, but there is here the forum, ppl have situations, others console them and this is happening on this non Absolute level Experientially...

Ok, done

[UnbornTao]

Mu!

[Keryo Koffa]

2 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Mu!

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

We can live in that place, but not within a society, Your Not Going to be in God Realization Experience while driving a car, it won't work, do You drive a car, does Sunny drive a Car? One can be Blissful and/or Peaceful while driving the car, but not in God Realization, its like a hit of 5 MeoDmt, it doesn't work together..

You have misunderstood the teaching. There's no one to say, I won't drive a car since i'm in God realization. God realization is a concept, an idea. It's all concepts and ideas so is enlightenment. "but not within society", is again a mental construct. It's happening regardless of how you see it. There's no this is society so I have to stoop to society's level and live from that place or I have to live from the Absolute and be in bliss and all that. That's all mental stuff, separation, beliefs, ideas, thoughts. Bliss and peaceful is what the egoic mind that doesn't exist strives for. It can't help it. That's what you're talking about. Youlre fantasizing about a God realization, bliss and peace. Reality is all ready that - no matter what the mirage is showing and whatever is appearing. 

[Javfly33]

15 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Yes, but this only comes to mind when one is trying to get somewhere and be helped (in this context, that is, not for practical stuff like a project). You will see something more important than the next and say it doesn't help because there is an avoidance of what is and disliking the movie that's being played. When that happens in real life, all we do is switch to another movie or watch something else. In reality, what the mind does is judge and criticize the movie and complain about the movie and say the movie isn't helping them, instead of just jumping to another script. How that's done is through the imagination. Leave alone what we don't like and focus on what we do like, THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. We are infinity here to experience that part of infinity as we so choose - not complain and judge and criticize it. That's the true nature of the illusion. That's the purpose of life. For life to experience itself.  We maneuver that with programming, thoughts and beliefs. That's how it works.

Oh for gods sakes give me a break. We havent chosed anything. Choose is something the ego does.

Creation is a mistake on itself. Every Guru that left knows It. Thats why they left. They realized the act of Creation itself is Karma.

The purpose of this dream is to end It, because duality sucks and Infinite Being fininite sucks too.

Everything else is stories your ego want to tell itself to Keep playing your games that inevitably Will end in dissolution. 

So dont fight the inevitable. God made a mistake and the path now is clear: stop the mistake.

Edited October 6 by Javfly33

[Princess Arabia]

@IshangaThis is why we suffer. This is how suffering is borne. It's a mental construction. When you keep saying not on this Absolute level, you have separated life. In other words, you have cut your self with a knife and sliced yourself into pieces. Ouch! That hurts. On the mental plane, that's called suffering. We are trying to mend that knife wound by adapting spiritual practices and gurus with hopes of mending the wound. 

All that stuff is also entertainment. It's empty. No power. They give off effects and appearances of doing something, but it's all just an appearance. Just like watching a movie and seeing the beautiful effects and the magic of the lights camera action and sound effects and camera effects. THAT'S ALL THAT'S HAPPENING. That said, no one is suggesting to stop doing anything because I myself still do spiritual practices because I enjoy them, and nothing useless about anything in particular because IT'S ALL EMPTY.