How Is Definitive Knowledge Possible?

[LoseYourvelf]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Look at it like this:

Is color knowledge? Is color insight?

No. Color is more fundamental than both. So clearly we got some very fundamental stuff going on even without any crazy mystical mumbo-jumbo.

but isnt colour already just a pretense of thought

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, r0ckyreed said:

If I go to my car and my window and broken and my wallet gone, I’m gonna assume someone broke into my car and took my wallet when I wasn’t aware of it.

When you go to the bar, are you really gonna leave your drink on the table to use the bathroom? The drugs someone puts in your drink is gonna be independent of your awareness of it.

Still, you're not sure that the Absolute didn't just appear as a broken window and your wallet missing. Assuming doesn't prove anything. 

About the drinks and drugs. Everything could just be happening right on the spot where there were no prior causes leading up to it. Meaning, you're assuming someone put the drugs in my drink when I wasn't there, when the drugs could just have simply appeared there by my awareness of it.

I'm not disputing you, I'm pretty much playing devil's advocate here because what you're saying sounds more logical and correct, while what I'm suggesting sounds asinine; but this is how it's done when speaking about such matters, We go and go and go until our theories get debunked and we realize there are also other possibilities. Also this doesn't have to make sense; it just have to be possible.

[r0ckyreed]

@Leo Gura How do you explain that reality appears to be mind-independent. A lot of objections I hear from people is that there are plenty of things we aren’t aware of but yet still exist. For instance, if I see my car window broken and find my wallet gone, then I’m gonna infer that someone broke into my car. This seems like a more parsimonious explanation. How do you explain that there are things that happen outside of our experience if Consciousness is Absolute and there is no external world? How could my car be broken into if I did not perceive the thief? It seems like the thief is mind independent. This is what I mean by mind independent reality. The thief still exists even if I don’t perceive him. 

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

@Leo Gura How do you explain that reality appears to be mind-independent. A lot of objections I hear from people is that there are plenty of things we aren’t aware of but yet still exist. For instance, if I see my car window broken and find my wallet gone, then I’m gonna infer that someone broke into my car. This seems like a more parsimonious explanation. How do you explain that there are things that happen outside of our experience if Consciousness is Absolute and there is no external world? How could my car be broken into if I did not perceive the thief? It seems like the thief is mind independent. This is what I mean by mind independent reality. The thief still exists even if I don’t perceive him. 

The Absolute can appear as anything. It can appear as a broken window. It can appear as you assuming that someone did it. It can appear as a missing wallet. It can appear as you thinking someone stole your wallet. It can appear as the thief being caught and prosecuted. It can appear as no one getting caught. It can appear as you assuming a thief existed. It can appear as you not knowing if a real thief existed. Just because your wallet turned up missing, isn't proof that someone exists outside your awareness that stole it.

[r0ckyreed]

8 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Still, you're not sure that the Absolute didn't just appear as a broken window and your wallet missing. Assuming doesn't prove anything. 

About the drinks and drugs. Everything could just be happening right on the spot where there were no prior causes leading up to it. Meaning, you're assuming someone put the drugs in my drink when I wasn't there, when the drugs could just have simply appeared there by my awareness of it.

I'm not disputing you, I'm pretty much playing devil's advocate here because what you're saying sounds more logical and correct, while what I'm suggesting sounds asinine; but this is how it's done when speaking about such matters, We go and go and go until our theories get debunked and we realize there are also other possibilities. Also this doesn't have to make sense; it just have to be possible.

I hear you. But it’s just not parsimonious and logically sound. I see you even have an assumption that sperm donors exist too. Everything has an infinite chain of causation. We can look at a child or even a leaf and trace it back infinitely and go infinitely forward.

[Princess Arabia]

A wallet is missing. That's it, Anything other than that is a story. A window is cracked. A person sees a cracked window. That's it. Anything else is a story. 

[r0ckyreed]

5 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

A wallet is missing. That's it, Anything other than that is a story. A window is cracked. A person sees a cracked window. That's it. Anything else is a story. 

But we live life as if that isn’t just a story because there are real survival costs at stake if you just leave your drink at a bar. We act as if the external world exists. I mean if what you are saying is true, then there is no thief. But how do you explain that I can find the thief and the wallet if I follow the evidence and track him down? There would be no use in having a detective because a body on the floor wasn’t murdered by anyone.

But we can find the killer. What if there was video footage of the thief and killer and you were wrong in claiming that nobody stole or killed? See how the killer and thief are mind independent but the knowledge via video footage is mind dependent? That should disprove this.

Edited Tuesday at 05:26 PM by r0ckyreed

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I hear you. But it’s just not parsimonious and logically sound. I see you even have an assumption that sperm donors exist too. Everything has an infinite chain of causation. We can look at a child or even a leaf and trace it back infinitely and go infinitely forward.

Chain of causation is the mind connecting the dots. Those chain of causations have no power in of themselves. One depends on the other. That's how a world gets created. There is no world, there is no mind ,and there are no chain of events. Everything is a mirage an illusion and that, my friend, is the magical power of God/Universe/Life/ or whatever you want to call it. 

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, r0ckyreed said:

But we live life as if that isn’t just a story because there are real survival costs at stake if you just leave your drink at a bar. We act as if the external world exists. I mean if what you are saying is true, then there is no thief. But how do you explain that I can find the thief and the wallet if I follow the evidence and track him down? There would be no use in having a detective because a body on the floor wasn’t murdered by anyone.

Yes, I know; and I'm not suggesting we live life like a fantasy and if our wallets gets stolen, we don't report it. This is just a discussion about the existential nature of existence and what is really happening behind the illusion.

It's all life playing all the parts and dancing with itself. There's no one to actually say, I'm not reporting this theft because life is a mirage. If that happens, that's life too, if the theft gets reported, that's the Absolute too. Your questions, my responses, everything is the Absolute interacting with itself. Anyone wants to get enlightened, is the Absolute playing that role. Someone telling them enlightenment is crap, that too is the Absolute. There's no escaping freedom. 

[theleelajoker]

5 hours ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Direct Experience vs. Mental (Theoretical) Knowledge

These are cliché examples, but they highlight something significant.

(...)

@Xonas Pitfall Thanks for writing this, the thing with the colour was new for me

@Princess Arabia and @r0ckyreed: Interesting to follow your discussion. I think for such situations, koans were created : )

[Hojo]

Awakening is acquiring the knowledge that nothing exists. When this happens you see yourself.

[Letho]

@r0ckyreed Pretty damn easy bro. That's why we use probability, "X is repeatedly here therefore....". The likelihood that I am typing this comment right now is 99.99% true. That .1% leaves room for the possibility that I am actually Caesar from Planet of The Apes, at least analogously.

[r0ckyreed]

17 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

@Xonas Pitfall Thanks for writing this, the thing with the colour was new for me

@Princess Arabia and @r0ckyreed: Interesting to follow your discussion. I think for such situations, koans were created : )

Koans are just an excuse for not explaining something simply. I think Einstein said that if you cannot explain something, then you don’t really know what it is. I think this is true for the most part. If you cannot make sense of it in your head and cannot articulate your thoughts, then there is still more work to be done. We shouldn’t accept anything less. Koans make excuses. Instead of beating around the bush, be freakin direct!

Edited Wednesday at 11:29 AM by r0ckyreed

[theleelajoker]

@r0ckyreed Exactly, that's because YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN BECAUSE YOU CAN'T KNOW! 

That's the whole point of it. Koans illustrate the limitations of the mind, of the rational thinking, so that you can experience for yourself and find peace in not knowing. Or much more, you stop seeking to understand, know and explain.  Inner peace : )

[r0ckyreed]

3 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Or much more, you stop seeking to understand, know and explain.  Inner peace : )

This is precisely the danger. You cannot even say that you can’t know. Stopping your curiosity is the death of all understanding. That’s why I am against meditation in particular. Even meditation has its limits, but we don’t talk about those.

Don’t forget about meta-rationality.

Edited Wednesday at 11:34 AM by r0ckyreed

[Someone here]

@r0ckyreed ever had a lucid dream before?

 

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@r0ckyreed ever had a lucid dream before?

 

Probably only 3-5 that I can remember. They are pretty cool. I have had lucidity as well in reality whenever I had a deep insight into oneness and no-self for the first time.

[Breakingthewall]

The ultimate knowledge is simple: you are. you have no limits.

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

Probably only 3-5 that I can remember. They are pretty cool. I have had lucidity as well in reality whenever I had a deep insight into oneness and no-self for the first time.

Cool.

What is it that creates a lucid dream ? What makes you go "oh,this must be a dream "?

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

The ultimate knowledge is simple: you are.

Spot on !