Ethnic Cleansing?

[Revolutionary Think]

The Jewish state was created to protect Jews from BS like this. At least be reasonable and balanced. 

 

[Minini]

Worth checking regarding this topic. Avi Shlaim is an Israeli historian.

[Leo Gura]

The motivation to do ethnic cleansing is irrelevant to whether one is doing ethnic cleansing.

You could do evil things for seemingly good reasons. For example, you could rob a bank because your children are hungry. But that doesn't negate the fact that a bank robbery happened.

Being a victim of abuse does not give license nor justification to abuse others.

It's understandable why Jews want a homeland -- to avoid historical abuse -- but does that mean that Jews are free to commit any degree of crime to create that homeland? Such logic cannot hold. Especially since Palestinians played no part in the Holocaust.

Edited September 30 by Leo Gura

[Ulax]

When post long videos, would request we, at least, post a summary of the main argument we are trying to make please.

Edited September 30 by Ulax

[Jannes]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You could do evil things for seemingly good reasons. For example, you could rob a bank because your children are hungry and about to die. But that doesn't negate the fact that a bank robbery happened.

But it doesnt negate the good deed either. And sometimes one has few options. So I think there are cases where doing evil things for the greater good are justifiable. 

Not saying that ethnic cleansing is justifiable though thats probably not a good deal. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Jannes said:

But it doesnt negate the good deed either. And sometimes one has few options. So I think there are cases where doing evil things for the greater good are justifiable. 

Not saying that ethnic cleansing is justifiable though thats probably not a good deal. 

Yeah, but when does it stop? When does Israel feel secure enough?

It's one thing to have committed ethnic cleansing 70 years ago. But it's another thing to keep pushing and pushing even in 2024.

It's like you robbed a bank to feed your children 20 years ago, but now you rob banks every month even though your children are fat and drive Mercedes.

Edited September 30 by Leo Gura

[Jannes]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but when does it stop? When does Israel feel secure enough?

It's one thing to have committed ethnic cleansing 70 years ago. But it's another thing to keep pushing and pushing even in 2024.

I haven't followed the news enough to make an educated comment on that, I was thinking about ethics in general. 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I was thinking about ethics in general. 

That's what I was speaking to. Ethics in general should tell you that once you're not hungry, you should stop robbing banks.

Edited September 30 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Jannes Did you listen to the account on Leo’s blog? 

[Jannes]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's what I was speaking to. Ethnics in general should tell you that once you're not hungry, you should stop robbing banks.

Okay yes agreed. 

[Jannes]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Jannes Did you listen to the account on Leo’s blog? 

Yes. The video about the cleansing is in my playlist but I haven't watched it yet. 

[Minini]

28 minutes ago, Jannes said:

So I think there are cases where doing evil things for the greater good are justifiable. 

the 'greater good' here is a subjective assessment. The greater good for who exactly? Is it really the greater good from an objective standpoint to make a shelter for one population by turning another population into scattered refugees?

[Revolutionary Think]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's one thing to have committed ethnic cleansing 70 years ago. But it's another thing to keep pushing and pushing even in 2024.

So let's keep working on that hypothetical. Let's say you give money back to the bank in 2005 and the bank used that money to buy rockets, rape your cousins, and murder your children and parents. I wouldn't trust that bank. Also the minute you were born the bank got a bunch of it's banker buddies together and tried to kill you immediately and you protected yourself in self defense. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=The disengagement plan was implemented,the August 15%2C 2005 deadline.

[Leo Gura]

@Revolutionary Think Don't stretch the analogy too far.

20 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

Also the minute you were born the bank got a bunch of it's banker buddies together and tried to kill you immediately and you protected yourself in self defense. 

If that is your characterization of the founding of Israel, you severely underinformed about basic history.

Israel wasn't founded through self-defense, it was founded by aggression and terrorism.

Edited October 1 by Leo Gura

[Revolutionary Think]

What country wasn't? The United States, Canada, and Mexico all hurt their indigenous populations. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

What country wasn't? The United States, Canada, and Mexico all hurt their indigenous populations. 

The difference is Israel keeps doing it today. They are not interested in decolonizing. Meanwhile there are millions of oppressed people who are denied self-determination.

Edited October 1 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

34 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

So let's keep working on that hypothetical. Let's say you give money back to the bank in 2005 and the bank used that money to buy rockets, rape your cousins, and murder your children and parents. I wouldn't trust that bank. Also the minute you were born the bank got a bunch of it's banker buddies together and tried to kill you immediately and you protected yourself in self defense. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=The disengagement plan was implemented,the August 15%2C 2005 deadline.

Quote

The United Nations, international human rights organizations, many legal scholars, and a “majority of academic commentators” regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[13] The International Court of Justice (ICJ) reaffirmed this position on the basis of Israel's continued control of the Gaza Strip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
 

Edited October 1 by Raze

[Revolutionary Think]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

The difference is Israel keeps doing it today. They are not interested decolonizing.

I'm sorry but, what you said doesn't make sense. Let's say there was a group in Mexico that demanded the land back that it got from the Mexican American War ok so we give them California and they use California to launch rockets and missiles at the rest of the United States. Not only that but, they get help from some Muslim country in fighting us. Then the Native Americans on their reservation start getting the idea of wanting to kill the white man and start entire education systems to educate their children to die for this cause. If you want to talk about terrible behavior Russia is also not interested in decolonizing or in this case de-sovietizing. 

Also if you haven't noticed Iran's government doesn't exactly represent their people they way they torture and kill all those who speak out against them. I'm wondering if on your blog right after 9/11 twin tower attacks that you'd actually put on documentaries on how bad and evil America is and that Bin Laden was justified because we're not interested in giving land back to the Native Americans that we stole from. Then you would say America deserves it because we're not interested in decolonizing and all the US bases we have overseas are a colonization project at that time you'd put stuff highly critical of the US right after 9/11. I'm not saying Israel is perfect far from it. 

Yet, when we live in a world where we see so many people in Iran rising up against their own government and their government using the blood sweat and tears of the Iranian people to fund a cause that they shouldn't even be a part of in the first place... We critize a teeny tiny state the size of New Jersey for oppressing people and having too much land. I'm sorry I'm not buying it. When there is so much corruption, and devilry all around the world they first target that people love to hate is the only Jewish state. To me at least be fair. I think this obsession is because Israel tends to end up in the news a lot and then people laser focus on one of the tiniest countries as the source of so many problems. Far be it from me to say that they are perfect. Although I think there are so many other countries acting far more nasty and cruel to their own populations with a history of far more brutality and barbarity and yet people LOVE to pick on Israel. 

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said:

We critize a teeny tiny state the size of New Jersey for oppressing people and having too much land.

You've acknowledged injustice taking place in that statement. Its morally inconsistent to decry human right abuses in one part of the world while ignoring the ones your own country is enabling and that you actually have a part in stopping.

The West/US just backs, facilitates and funds Israel which as you've highlighted is oppressing Palestinians. Its outrageous to back a country that lacks the respect it does for its backers and perpetuates injustice. How many times has the West/US called for de-escalation or a change in conduct only to not be listened to and have the opposite be done in the name of your own values (Western).

This is why the West has lost respect in a lot of the worlds eyes, as if it already hadn't done so before. Because while they publicly oppose violence and Israel's conduct, they facilitate it, and in the case of the US most likely green light it in private. It's highly unlikely Israel is tactically assassinating enemies in other sovereign countries, and dropping 80 2000 pound US made bunker buster bombs (in Beirut) without US approval. Not only does Israel deny sovereignty to Palestinians, it infringed upon other sovereign nations with impunity.

Either way, the West are complicit and Israel's actions are also viewed by many as Western actions, particularly American. This is why a lot of world view the West as not having changed in some fundamental aspects, namely the supremacist entitled attitude it has for groups or regions other than itself. We haven't evolved beyond violence, only in our methods and means of committing it. Having netflix and pride parades doesn't make one 'civilized'. Don't mistake cosmetic change for character change or a shift in consciousness.  Don't mistake vertical development in the material world for horizontal development in the spiritual.

 

Edited October 1 by zazen

[Schizophonia]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The motivation to do ethnic cleansing is irrelevant to whether one is doing ethnic cleansing.

You could do evil things for seemingly good reasons. For example, you could rob a bank because your children are hungry. But that doesn't negate the fact that a bank robbery happened.

Being a victim of abuse does not give license nor justification to abuse others.

To a more holistic pov there is no good and bad, there are only balance of power.

You don't rob a bank because you don't want being killed by police or security, or finish in prison. 

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's understandable why Jews want a homeland -- to avoid historical abuse -- but does that mean that Jews are free to commit any degree of crime to create that homeland? Such logic cannot hold. Especially since Palestinians played no part in the Holocaust.

Why wouldn't they be? As long as they are not stopped.