Your thoughs on this paragraph?

[koops]

[aurum]

@koops no one is freeing themselves completely from suffering.

At best, you can have less resistance to your own suffering. In which case you might suffer less.

Edited September 26, 2024 by aurum

[What Am I]

I don't like to doubt aurum, but my own understanding of the mechanics of enlightenment and the supposed "end stage" of spirituality matches pretty closely to this. Especially the bit about the directness of perception in cognizing the mystical realization. I think the notion of being freed from suffering is a slippery subject in authentic spirituality. The individual likely never ceases to suffer as long as they live. But when the sense of identity has shifted to a paradoxical combination of everything, nothing, and beyond, who could be said to be suffering at that point? I think it's very often misunderstood what's meant.

I wouldn't say I've even approached it yet myself, but my peak experiences are profound enough to lend me the faith needed to trust the great masters of the past in this regard.

Whoever wrote this either has some serious skill, or they've simply memorized the lingo lol. It can be hard to tell sometimes. Who's the author and what's the book?

Edited September 26, 2024 by What Am I

[Inliytened1]

6 hours ago, koops said:

Perfect.  Only change the last line.  Direct knowledge of the true nature of reality IS the permanent liberation of suffering. 

[koops]

9 hours ago, What Am I said:

I don't like to doubt aurum, but my own understanding of the mechanics of enlightenment and the supposed "end stage" of spirituality matches pretty closely to this. Especially the bit about the directness of perception in cognizing the mystical realization. I think the notion of being freed from suffering is a slippery subject in authentic spirituality. The individual likely never ceases to suffer as long as they live. But when the sense of identity has shifted to a paradoxical combination of everything, nothing, and beyond, who could be said to be suffering at that point? I think it's very often misunderstood what's meant.

I wouldn't say I've even approached it yet myself, but my peak experiences are profound enough to lend me the faith needed to trust the great masters of the past in this regard.

Whoever wrote this either has some serious skill, or they've simply memorized the lingo lol. It can be hard to tell sometimes. Who's the author and what's the book?

Its from The Mind Illumitated, by Culasada.

Yeah, the 'no suffering' is doubtful.

If one of this gurus was forced to work for 40 years at Waltmart, with minimum wage, living in the hood, 1h commute everyday... would he suffer?

Or if he was in jail...

And, even if true, how many people realistically will achieve it?

 

[koops]

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Perfect.  Only change the last line.  Direct knowledge of the true nature of reality IS the permanent liberation of suffering. 

Mmm cant you attain that genuine wisdom from a temporary experience?

Lets say pshycedelics or a satori/kensho.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

14 hours ago, koops said:

I'd say it's true in some sense. When you have permanent access to the true nature of reality, to your true nature, joy and freedom are normal, but if something extreme happens to you, pain, hunger, etc., we would have to see if you still have access to your true nature or only to pain and hunger 

1 hour ago, koops said:

Mmm cant you attain that genuine wisdom from a temporary experience?

The only wisdom is the openess to the unlimited, and it's a reality, not something that you can remember from an experience. Any remember is just a remember, could be a help but it's not the real thing , the real thing is now. 

[koops]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'd say it's true in some sense. When you have permanent access to the true nature of reality, to your true nature, joy and freedom are normal, but if something extreme happens to you, pain, hunger, etc., we would have to see if you still have access to your true nature or only to pain and hunger 

The only wisdom is the openess to the unlimited, and it's a reality, not something that you can remember from an experience. Any remember is just a remember, could be a help but it's not the real thing , the real thing is now. 

So its a language problem?

In the forum I see 'awakening' as a peak into the nature of reality, while enlightenment as a permanet thing.

 

I get your point.

But still. Im not having an orgasm right now, but I know what it is (from memory).

Not being permanent doest invalidate the experience.

For example, Leo talks about this topics from memory, that doesnt make them wrong.

 

What kind of distinction do you make there?

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, koops said:

So its a language problem?

In the forum I see 'awakening' as a peak into the nature of reality, while enlightenment as a permanet thing.

 

I get your point.

But still. Im not having an orgasm right now, but I know what it is (from memory).

Not being permanent doest invalidate the experience.

For example, Leo talks about this topics from memory, that doesnt make them wrong.

 

What kind of distinction do you make there?

Everyone define awakening in a different way, I define as perceiving yourself as unlimited, then if you perceived yourself as unlimited 5 minutes one month ago but after you perceive yourself as limited the whole time, it's going to be confusing, you will elaborate a lot of histories and you would suffer more of less at the same level than before. The point is perceiving yourself as unlimited now. It's not a mental construction, it's a real perception, and from this perception the suffering blurs and dissapear 

 

Edited September 27, 2024 by Breakingthewall

[What Am I]

5 hours ago, koops said:

Its from The Mind Illumitated, by Culasada.

Oh yeah, I've read that one in the past. I would consider Culadasa as legit. He had a very long-running practice and trained under some renowned lineages. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out he's speaking from experience.

5 hours ago, koops said:

Yeah, the 'no suffering' is doubtful.

If one of this gurus was forced to work for 40 years at Waltmart, with minimum wage, living in the hood, 1h commute everyday... would he suffer?

Or if he was in jail...

Well, like I said, the suffering that the wisdom traditions claim to offer liberation from is probably not what you're thinking. Suffering still occurs, but the practice provides a true freedom from the one who suffers. Meaning suffering becomes an empty process which exists in its own suchness, without a standalone individual who could be said to be experiencing the suffering.

It may be too subtle of a concept to convey here. You'll just need to experience glimpses of it for yourself.

5 hours ago, koops said:

And, even if true, how many people realistically will achieve it?

That'd be up to the practitioner. You're correct that barely anybody on earth has achieved it, or is even aware of it as an option. But it would seem you're starting to slowly become more aware. It'll be up to you whether stuff like this stuff simply remains words in books, or instead becomes your lived experience.

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The only wisdom is the openess to the unlimited, and it's a reality, not something that you can remember from an experience. Any remember is just a remember, could be a help but it's not the real thing , the real thing is now.

This is an excellent pointer. A complete practice could be built using it as a foundation.

Edited September 27, 2024 by What Am I

[Inliytened1]

6 hours ago, koops said:

Mmm cant you attain that genuine wisdom from a temporary experience?

Lets say pshycedelics or a satori/kensho.

 

 

Wisdom is attained through life experience not awakening.   I hate to use the Mario metaphor but inside the video game Mario can still gain a lot of wisdom through his experiences in the game.  But one day he breaks completely out of the game into a whole other reality.  That changes his perspective on the game now.  He knows it's just a game.

[gettoefl]

6 hours ago, koops said:

Its from The Mind Illumitated, by Culasada.

Yeah, the 'no suffering' is doubtful.

If one of this gurus was forced to work for 40 years at Waltmart, with minimum wage, living in the hood, 1h commute everyday... would he suffer?

Or if he was in jail...

And, even if true, how many people realistically will achieve it?

 

Truth told I have never suffered my entire life, have worked Walmart type jobs and done stretches inside

This body has indeed suffered plenty and often gets on my case to do something

I tell it this isn't up to me

I can tell everyone here that when you heal your mind then you WILL heal your body

Body is not being affected by surroundings and circumstances like commonly believed

You are doing this to yourself to punish yourself and to keep yourself enslaved in darkness

Your sick mind cannot have you waking up

Your mind is eminently healable as I explain many times over.

The means is forgiveness of all that you see. 

Let me say it aloud:

YOU ARE CREATING ALL THIS HERE AND FORGIVING IS TO SEE THEN TREAT EVERYTHING AS LOVE NOT FEAR

Edited September 27, 2024 by gettoefl

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Truth told I have never suffered my entire life, have worked Walmart type jobs and done stretches inside

This body has indeed suffered plenty and often gets on my case to do something

I tell it this isn't up to me

I can tell everyone here that when you heal your mind then you WILL heal your body

Body is not being affected by surroundings and circumstances like commonly believed

You are doing this to yourself to punish yourself and to keep yourself enslaved in darkness

Your sick mind cannot have you waking up

Your mind is eminently healable as I explain many times over.

The means is forgiveness of all that you see. 

Let me say it aloud:

YOU ARE CREATING ALL THIS HERE AND FORGIVING IS TO SEE THEN TREAT EVERYTHING AS LOVE NOT FEAR

Yeah but what if you once made millions, let's say developing a new innovative web site and product during the .com boom- but now you are bankrupt working at walmart because you lost everything.   Would you suffer then?  It's very different from working at Walmart when that's all you knew.

[gettoefl]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yeah but what if you once made millions, let's say developing a new innovative web site and product during the .com boom- but now you are bankrupt working at walmart because you lost everything.   Would you suffer then?  It's very different from working at Walmart when that's all you knew.

Give up the nightmare boom and bust dreams

There is something way better waiting

Creation is one's destiny and everything here is child's play

[What Am I]

6 hours ago, koops said:

Mmm cant you attain that genuine wisdom from a temporary experience?

Lets say pshycedelics or a satori/kensho.

To give my two cents on this one, I would say the answer is yes. But only so far as the temporary mystical experience performs energetic purification and helps pave the way towards the full realization.

In my experience, moving towards enlightenment seems to involve a progressive process rather than an all-at-once revelation, though I wouldn't be surprised to find out there's a profound experience that marks the completion of the process. My point is that many changes will happen to you along the way, and I believe that would include the attainment of genuine wisdom, which I would define as a proper alignment with ultimate reality rather than something more mundane like making smart choices.

Edited September 27, 2024 by What Am I

[Inliytened1]

22 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Give up the nightmare boom and bust dreams

There is something way better waiting

Creation is one's destiny and everything here is child's play

I admire you friend.  

 

[gettoefl]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

I admire you friend.  

 

I love you and as I told you before, you are my teacher

[theleelajoker]

Re the OP:

Agree with most of the others, all in all sounds good but depends very much on the definition of "suffering":

• Let's say you have 4 children, they all die suddenly. Is suffering that you are sad that they are no more in your life?
• Or is it only suffering if you are sad about the fact that you are sad?

This whole enlightenment stuff, this concepts of self-realization etc - it's all just words. What resonates with me is a combination of points that have been brought up in the previous posts. For example like this:

You have no resistance to what is right now, in your direct experience and open unlimited and unconditionally to whatever was, is and might be.

Still a lot of words. Can one simplify it?  No resistance = acceptance. And we are always in the now. And what we have is always direct experience, isn't it? So easier:

Accept and experience.

Can it be simplified? Well, what if I do not want to accept? I want to be in denial.  Then it's the experience I want to have, right? If I choose resistance, then that's what I want, right? So I don't need to accept.  Which leaves me with:

Experience.

That's what we do anyway, right? Don't know how not to experience...

[Inliytened1]

23 minutes ago, What Am I said:

To give my two cents on this one, I would say the answer is yes. But only so far as the temporary mystical experience performs energetic purification and helps pave the way towards the full realization.

In my experience, moving towards enlightenment seems to involve a progressive process rather than an all-at-once revelation, though I wouldn't be surprised to find out there's a profound experience that marks the completion of the process. 

Wanna know the Truth?  Yeah - your life experiences build up to that - but really only deep suffering is what is channeled into Truth or awakening. It is the discovery of what we call "no self"  (in Buddhism) that ultimately leads to awakening.  After that you can have a series of awakenings but, at least for me no self was the beginning of the event you are describing - concluding with total Oneness (otherwise known as Absolute Solipsism)  watch out for that one.

Edited September 27, 2024 by Inliytened1

[What Am I]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Wanna know the Truth?  Yeah - your life experiences build up to that - but really only deep suffering is what is channeled into Truth or awakening. It is the discovery of what we call "no self"  (in Buddhism) that ultimately leads to awakening.  After that you can have a series of awakenings but, at least for me no self was the beginning of the event you are describing - concluding with total Oneness (otherwise known as Absolute Solipsism)  watch out for that one.

Sounds accurate to me. No-self would be another one of those experiential descriptors that's very often misunderstood, similar to the idea of liberation from suffering. But your use of them here jives with my understanding. Very cool indeed.