1 liter of soy milk per day completely supress testosterone.

[Schizophonia]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9593161/

This men drinked 1.2l of soymilk per day and has developped hypogonadism.

When he has completely stopped to drink it, his LH returned to normal and his testosterone increased from 12.6 to 565ng/dl in 5 months.

@Michael569

@undeather

Edited 6 hours ago by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

https://testonation.com/2023/06/12/soy-testosterone/

[Sugarcoat]

Nobody would drink that amount anyways right

 

does any effect happen at more normal drinking amounts 

Edited 22 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Schizophonia]

1 minute ago, Sugarcoat said:

Nobody would drink that amount anyways right

 

does any effect happen at more normal drinking amounts 

Yes you're right 👍

But people can regularly eat a consequent amount of tofu, tempeh and things like that who are much more concentrated in isoflavones and soy proteins.

Even if it's just a few percent to tens of percent drop in blood testosterone here and there, it's still enough to decrease well-being, bone and muscle mass, etc.

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, Schizophonia said:

Yes you're right 👍

But people can regularly eat a consequent amount of tofu, tempeh and things like that who are much more concentrated in isoflavones and soy proteins.

Even if it's just a few percent to tens of percent drop in blood testosterone here and there, it's still enough to decrease well-being, bone and muscle mass, etc.

So soy products everyday isn’t good is that a simple conclusion? 

[Schizophonia]

5 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

So soy products everyday isn’t good is that a simple conclusion? 

Yes, a priori.

[Sugarcoat]

28 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, a priori.

Ok👍🏻

[Jannes]

Seems a bit like cherrypicking. Here would be a counter cherry, does that disproof anything?

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Jannes

[Schizophonia]

7 minutes ago, Jannes said:

 

It's astonishing 🤔

Maybe some people (like the guy in the video?) have a sensitivity to estrogens low enough that isoflavones ultimately behave like SERMS.
And on the contrary, people sensitive enough that they behave on the contrary simply like partial agonists, which will therefore inhibit the gonadotropic axis.

Something like that.

[Michael569]

Thanks for sharing, i think there is a bit more nuance to this topic but it requires a longer response, i don't have time right now to review the evidence but I'll reply at some point this week. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Michael569

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9593161/

"However, in their literature review, Messina et al. concluded that feminizing effects are not observed in men who consume even a much larger amount of soy isoflavones than normal (12). Another meta-analysis similarly concluded that soy protein and isoflavone intake does not affect serum testosterone levels in men (13). The effect of excessive isoflavone intake in men is thus controversial."

The research if soy isoflavones cause feminization seems controversial. 

"Although some studies have found that isoflavone intake has no effect on feminization or gonadal hormones despite its estrogen-like effect in men (12,13), several interventional studies and case reports have described feminization and hypogonadism due to excessive isoflavone intake. Because interventional studies by excessive administration of isoflavones are impossible due to safety concerns, the accumulation of spontaneous case reports is important. Gardner-Thorpe et al. found that men who ate soya flour (containing isoflavones 120 mg/day) for 6 weeks showed a moderate decrease in serum testosterone levels (from 19.30 nmol/L to 18.20 nmol/L) (9). Martinez et al. reported that a 60-year-old man who drank 2.8 L of soy milk per day (isoflavones 361 mg/day) developed gynecomastia, erectile dysfunction, and a diminished libido (10). Siepmann et al. reported that a 19-year-old man eating a vegan diet exhibited erectile dysfunction, a diminished libido, and a low FT level as a result of consuming isoflavones 360 mg/day for 1 year (11). The present patient's estimated isoflavone intake was 310 mg/day."

Oh so they dont directly make studies to view the effect of estrogen on men because it is regulations forbid experimentation if people can get harmed as a result. So they take the case reports instead. Interesting how all that works. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Jannes

[Jannes]

"From three years ago, he had started restricting his carbohydrate intake with the intention of losing weight"

So he was trying to loose weight. Calorie restriction leads to lower testosterone levels and lower libido. Is the possibility eliminated that it was that and not the soy?

[Keryo Koffa]

Yay, more placebo.

[Sugarcoat]

20 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Yay, more placebo.

The minds role in diet😎

[Keryo Koffa]

24 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

The minds role in diet😎

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Keryo Koffa

[Schizophonia]

8 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

The minds role in diet😎

gnegnegne

Edited 20 hours ago by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

49 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Yay, more placebo.

1) The man did not drink this soy with an endocrine purpose.

2) The placebo effect is probably not enough to explain a complete annihilation of his gonadotropic axis and its return to normal in a few months.

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

"From three years ago, he had started restricting his carbohydrate intake with the intention of losing weight"

So he was trying to loose weight. Calorie restriction leads to lower testosterone levels and lower libido. Is the possibility eliminated that it was that and not the soy?

Caloric restriction even prolonged and severe doesn't completely stop HPTA axis.

[Sugarcoat]

33 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

 

Lol

[Sugarcoat]

29 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

 

gnegnegne

I can’t with this noise