Leo’s advise about dating and sex are mostly aimed towards man

[Buck Edwards]

16 hours ago, AION said:

Your fantasy might become a reality after the first moment authority of the state starts to crumble. Without law, like in a war / natural disaster or some kind of chaos; women always become the first target. It is the law stopping guys what they would do if they see a delicious 20 year old prime fertile girl on the street. 

This is true only for criminals. The average man is a good man, what you're doing is fear mongering against men, it doesn't help. The average man is more worried about feeding his family and keeping his woman happy, not some creepy stranger in an alley waiting to rape women. You don't understand men because you aren't deeply connected with your own masculinity. This mentality that men are scary rapey wolves is pure stage red bullcrap for men who haven't evolved to stage green and above. Most modern men are highly civilized and would shudder at the thought of rape. I've been sexually harassed countless times yet several times it was men who rescued me so this thinking that men look at women with rapey eyes belongs to the dump basket. 

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Just start planning for a serious relationship at some point. And think a little bit less with your dick and little bit more with your heart.

Curious to hear what relationship format you advocate for.

Do you have a traditional monogamous marriage in mind when you say "serious relationship" with "heart?"

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

This is true only for criminals. The average man is a good man, what you're doing is fear mongering against men, it doesn't help. The average man is more worried about feeding his family and keeping his woman happy, not some creepy stranger in an alley waiting to rape women. You don't understand men because you aren't deeply connected with your own masculinity. This mentality that men are scary rapey wolves is pure stage red bullcrap for men who haven't evolved to stage green and above. Most modern men are highly civilized and would shudder at the thought of rape. I've been sexually harassed countless times yet several times it was men who rescued me so this thinking that men look at women with rapey eyes belongs to the dump basket. 

The reality is that red still exists in major parts of the world, sometimes side-by-side with green. So you're both correct in your own ways.

More poignantly, red and green can exist side-by-side within an individual man. So it's not as clear cut as "men don't rape" or "all men are rapists."

The truth is in the middle. I would say most men are empathetic non-rapists who have a tiny fraction of their soul which desires to rape, but is vehemently repressed and stamped out (it never really goes away, but we act like it's not there).

But in general I can see that you have rose-tinted glasses in the way you view men, from the way you deny our core hunter instinct and our history of conquest and war crimes (which doesn't magically disappear from our subconscious just because we live in a green society!).

If you want to do serious research into fucked up male psychology, look up the south korean Nth room incident on telegram, especially the doctor's rooms. And currently they have a large scale deepfake epidemic as well. Rotten Mango youtube channel has good coverage of this. But I don't particularly recommend going down this rabbit hole. It's extremely disturbing and will cause guttural reactions in you. But this is, in some sense, the "true face" of men whom we both love and hate.

Those south korean men are really no different than a man in any other western developed country. It's just a matter of environment and circumstance and degree. Real life is just like the Lord of the Flies, where civilized and reasonable regular humans will turn on each other when survival is at stake.

Truth ain't pretty.

[Buck Edwards]

21 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

The truth is in the middle. I would say most men are empathetic non-rapists who have a tiny fraction of their soul which desires to rape, but is vehemently repressed and stamped out

What evidence do we have for this? None. I don't think every man on the street feels rapey. Or that if he doesn't express it then he is suppressing it in some way. This could easily be a huge projection. Anomalous projection. History is definitely filled with an astounding amount of examples of brutality on one hand but on the other there are countless brave men who died in war saving their women and children. It's a pity that humans only choose to remember the negative. 

[RendHeaven]

17 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

What evidence do we have for this? None. I don't think every man on the street feels rapey.

Hahaha why did I bother

[Buck Edwards]

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Hahaha why did I bother

Do you love a woman who is cheating on you with some other man? Asking out of curiosity. 

[aurum]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

Curious to hear what relationship format you advocate for.

Do you have a traditional monogamous marriage in mind when you say "serious relationship" with "heart?"

"Serious" is a function of commitment.

If you were serious about becoming a star soccer player, you wouldn't just kick a ball around every once in a while. You'd commit and put the work in everyday, for as long as it took.

That's the kind of relationship I'm talking about.

"Heart" is the emotional connection that drives commitment and bonding. You're in love with that person, and that person in particular. They are not just easily replaceable, despite whatever Beyonce might say.

Whether that leads to monogamy or some other structure doesn't ultimately matter. Monogamy will work best for most people and for society as a whole, but a mature couple can decide for themselves where they stand on the monogamy continuum. 

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Buck Edwards said:

Do you love a woman who is cheating on you with some other man? Asking out of curiosity. 

Hmm fun question!

Nope, it's impossible to "cheat" on me because I don't demand sexual exclusivity. I find mate guarding to be a waste of time. People deserve to make uninhibited choices moment to moment, and if a woman wants to stay with me over the course of several years, it'll be because she has truly chosen me day after day.

This mass-hallucination called "cheating" literally doesn't exist in my reality and I feel for people who continue to infuse that construct with significance.

@aurum Great answer as always.

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, RendHeaven said:

Hmm fun question!

Nope, it's impossible to "cheat" on me because I don't demand sexual exclusivity. I find mate guarding to be a waste of time. People deserve to make uninhibited choices moment to moment, and if a woman wants to stay with me over the course of several years, it'll be because she has truly chosen me day after day.

This mass-hallucination called "cheating" literally doesn't exist in my reality and I feel for people who continue to infuse that construct with significance.

@aurum Great answer as always.

Maybe I didn't frame my question correctly. (English is not my first language) let me reframe it. Would you date a woman knowing that she persistently cheats on men who date her? 

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Buck Edwards said:

Would you date a woman knowing that she persistently cheats on men who date her? 

I sleep with anyone I perceive as hot, but to be a woman I'm "dating" (aka emotionally invested in), I need to be impressed by her character.

I don't mind her sleeping around, but I'm unimpressed by lying. If she's a consistent liar, the most she gets to be with me is FWB.

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, RendHeaven said:

I sleep with anyone I perceive as hot, but to be a woman I'm "dating" (aka emotionally invested in), I need to be impressed by her character.

I don't mind her sleeping around, but I'm unimpressed by lying. If she's a consistent liar, the most she gets to be with me is FWB.

That's the point. You focus on character. Because in your mind, you want to know that a woman is able to reciprocate what you give her. You don't want your value snatched from you by a woman who is lacking in character. You find her undeserving of your love which is perfectly understandable. It's because you want to seriously emotionally invest in her and such an investment obviously comes with expectations. If you have some basic expectations out of a woman (that you seriously wish to date) beyond the superficial aspects of just looks, then you should expect the same from the opposite sex too. Women have basic expectations out of men too. Now, if i told you (just hypothetically), that almost all women have a cheating lying instinct in them naturally at birth and their hormones (some unknown female hormone let's say), is causing them to always want to cheat and lie and deceive men they sleep with, it will be a hard truth for you to digest. And not just that. I will also tell you not to look at women with rose tinted glasses. This is a hypothetical situation I'm telling you to imagine. 

Now you have to not only accept the fact that all women cheat and lie and deceive men but also love these women  with all your emotions invested in them. This is naturally quite hard for you to do. It creates a massive dissonance in your mind. You find it to difficult to accept and comprehend that you have to love someone and be committed, attracted and invested in someone that simply doesn't stand up to your character requirements. And your mind will go into denial and you'll tell me "no, all women cannot be that way." I'll tell you "this is the truth. Truth is not pretty. Women have a cheating, lying instinct. Just accept it." 

You see now. Women have a fundamental requirement of safety and security. We have basic expectations out of the men we wanna date. If you tell me that most men have an inherent rapey instinct in-built in them(due to testosterone or whatever), my mind will not casually accept that because it negates my fundamental instinct and requirement of safety from men. How am I supposed to work around men or love or desire a man with the thought that men don't fundamentally care about my safety or that they're repressing their rape instinct and just be okay with it? It massively clashes with my expectation of reality and creates a deep cognitive dissonance. It's almost like telling a rabbit to love a wolf and at the same time convincing the rabbit that the wolf wants to eat it. Can you spot the cognitive dissonance in this? It will be impossible for the rabbit to love the wolf. 

You cannot convince me that men have a repressed rape instinct because my fundamental instinct for desiring men is based or rooted in my trust for men. It clashes with my trust so obviously I'll be in denial no matter whether you consider such an instinct to be the true nature of men or not. 

I hope you got my point. 

 

[AION]

@Buck Edwards  you are in for a big surprise then. Your fantasies are telling you something about human nature. I don’t think human nature has changed in the last 80 years of post WW2 peace. You just are (un)fortunate of not living through a war. Just look what is happening in Ukraine. 😭

Edited September 29 by AION

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, AION said:

@Buck Edwards  you are in for a big surprise then. Your fantasies are telling you something about human nature. I don’t think human nature has changed in the last 80 years of post WW2 peace. You just are (un)fortunate of not living through a war. 😭

Again. You are overgeneralizing entire humanity with a few extreme examples from human history. This is classic cherry picking. We have come far far from caveman times and it's because of the good in us. And to top it off, there's no rational empirical study that proves any link between testosterone and rape instinct. You made up a bunch of extreme theories. 

[Javfly33]

35 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

That's the point. You focus on character. Because in your mind, you want to know that a woman is able to reciprocate what you give her. You don't want your value snatched from you by a woman who is lacking in character. You find her undeserving of your love which is perfectly understandable. It's because you want to seriously emotionally invest in her and such an investment obviously comes with expectations. If you have some basic expectations out of a woman (that you seriously wish to date) beyond the superficial aspects of just looks, then you should expect the same from the opposite sex too. Women have basic expectations out of men too. Now, if i told you (just hypothetically), that almost all women have a cheating lying instinct in them naturally at birth and their hormones (some unknown female hormone let's say), is causing them to always want to cheat and lie and deceive men they sleep with, it will be a hard truth for you to digest. And not just that. I will also tell you not to look at women with rose tinted glasses. This is a hypothetical situation I'm telling you to imagine. 

Now you have to not only accept the fact that all women cheat and lie and deceive men but also love these women  with all your emotions invested in them. This is naturally quite hard for you to do. It creates a massive dissonance in your mind. You find it to difficult to accept and comprehend that you have to love someone and be committed, attracted and invested in someone that simply doesn't stand up to your character requirements. And your mind will go into denial and you'll tell me "no, all women cannot be that way." I'll tell you "this is the truth. Truth is not pretty. Women have a cheating, lying instinct. Just accept it." 

You see now. Women have a fundamental requirement of safety and security. We have basic expectations out of the men we wanna date. If you tell me that most men have an inherent rapey instinct in-built in them(due to testosterone or whatever), my mind will not casually accept that because it negates my fundamental instinct and requirement of safety from men. How am I supposed to work around men or love or desire a man with the thought that men don't fundamentally care about my safety or that they're repressing their rape instinct and just be okay with it? It massively clashes with my expectation of reality and creates a deep cognitive dissonance. It's almost like telling a rabbit to love a wolf and at the same time convincing the rabbit that the wolf wants to eat it. Can you spot the cognitive dissonance in this? It will be impossible for the rabbit to love the wolf. 

You cannot convince me that men have a repressed rape instinct because my fundamental instinct for desiring men is based or rooted in my trust for men. It clashes with my trust so obviously I'll be in denial no matter whether you consider such an instinct to be the true nature of men or not. 

interesting post.

The solution is to be with a person not to extract something in return but to share and include them on the Love that you are already able to produce within yourself, therefore you can include anyone in that Love that is mature enough to receive it/share your life with.

In the rest of times relationships and a never ending game of unsatisfaction because of the very good points you said, those were just examples but im sure more can come up if we think about it

Edited September 29 by Javfly33

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Now, if i told you (just hypothetically), that almost all women have a cheating lying instinct in them naturally at birth and their hormones (some unknown female hormone let's say), is causing them to always want to cheat and lie and deceive men they sleep with, it will be a hard truth for you to digest. And not just that. I will also tell you not to look at women with rose tinted glasses. This is a hypothetical situation I'm telling you to imagine. 

I actually unironically suspect this, so it's already been digested

Which is why I would hope to meet a girl who has tamed that aspect of her lying/deceptive psyche, as you would hope to meet a man who has tamed the "rapist" aspect of his psyche

5 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Now you have to not only accept the fact that all women cheat and lie and deceive men but also love these women  with all your emotions invested in them.

Correct! Well said.

6 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

This is naturally quite hard for you to do. It creates a massive dissonance in your mind. You find it to difficult to accept and comprehend that you have to love someone and be committed, attracted and invested in someone that simply doesn't stand up to your character requirements.

Yes, this has caused me much turmoil

7 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

And your mind will go into denial and you'll tell me "no, all women cannot be that way." I'll tell you "this is the truth. Truth is not pretty. Women have a cheating, lying instinct. Just accept it." 

I've had this conversation with myself many times, taking both sides.

By now I've accepted it. But I can understand why others will not.

Great analogy though, I see your point.

8 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

You see now. Women have a fundamental requirement of safety and security. We have basic expectations out of the men we wanna date.

Yes

9 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

If you tell me that most men have an inherent rapey instinct in-built in them(due to testosterone or whatever), my mind will not casually accept that because it negates my fundamental instinct and requirement of safety from men.

I understand

9 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

How am I supposed to work around men or love or desire a man with the thought that men don't fundamentally care about my safety or that they're repressing their rape instinct and just be okay with it?

If we assume for a second (hypothetically) that I'm onto something - we would say that a lot of men are repressing their "rape instinct" (stage green); another handful of unbecoming men are embracing it and causing lots of harm (stage red/orange).

But that's not the full picture.

With more self awareness and self acceptance, a man can acknowledge and unchain his "inner rapist" without allowing it to corrupt him and become destructive. You can picture this as a form of sexual transmutation or high-level embodied shadow work.

That aggressive, dark, demon/beast energy can be wielded for good. As you maintain that there are brave and valiant men throughout history - please understand that these men are simply "wielding" their "inner rape instinct" for consciousness and unity rather than selfishness.

That's the key difference - but the actual substance is the same thing: that raw, assertive, conqueror energy is the bedrock of YANG, deep within the heart of every masculine entity. I've been calling it an "inner rapist" for the reason that its MO is to impose its will onto the universe without seeking permission from its environment. That is the true spirit of a man.

Thus, every man has the latent potential to be a rapist, that is, a desire to act his will without seeking any permission from his environment. How this manifests on the physical plane is infinitely variable, depending on his degree of self awareness and self acceptance. He could be a literal rapist, or a greedy CEO, or he could be a loving father of two kids, or an honorable firefighter, or anything in between.

As Emerald used to say - the ideal man is like a Lion coupled with a Lion tamer. Or even as you've said, the ideal wolf is a good wolf.

And I agree! I'm just saying that all wolves have sharp teeth. Even the good ones.

A woman who gives herself to a man is trusting the wolf not to devour her.

And a man who gives himself to a woman is trusting her to trust him not to devour her (many of us are scared of our own power; and a trusting, sincere, open, feminine woman is like a blessing from God and a reminder that it's OK for us to have fangs)

17 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

It will be impossible for the rabbit to love the wolf. 

Only if the rabbit is prioritizing self preservation.

18 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

You cannot convince me that men have a repressed rape instinct because my fundamental instinct for desiring men is based or rooted in my trust for men. It clashes with my trust so obviously I'll be in denial no matter whether you consider such an instinct to be the true nature of men or not. 

I hope you got my point. 

That's OK, I understand.

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

If we assume for a second (hypothetically) that I'm onto something - we would say that a lot of men are repressing their "rape instinct" (stage green); another handful of unbecoming men are embracing it and causing lots of harm (stage red/orange).

Tl;dr:

All men are wolves with sharp teeth.

Most men pretend to not have teeth at all (repression; stage green)

Some men love the fact that they have teeth, and they run around eating everything they see (actual rapists; stage red)

 

But then there are men who know they have sharp teeth, but they choose not to eat indiscriminately.

They use their teeth for the greater good (building structures, connecting people, leading movements, protecting women, etc.)

[RendHeaven]

Similarly, we could say that:

All women are deceptive foxes

Most women completely deny that they are a fox, and pretend to be a more pleasant animal, like a cute kitten. Repression.

Some women love the fact that they are foxes, and wrap men around their fingers to control and extract commitment, resources, etc.

 

But then there are some women who know they are cunning foxes, but pick their targets with care.

They use their deception for the greater good (maintaining social harmony, helping people to surrender to the present moment, to divert attention to beauty and peace, etc.)

[Elisabeth]

On 9/27/2024 at 10:43 PM, Leo Gura said:

Girls are attracted to the top 20% of men, and men are attracted to the top 20% of girls.

The problem is the self-biased way men see this situation.

I couldn't help thinking about this yesterday. This just doesn't match my experience. I know you must have said it a 1000 times on this forum already, but would you care to elaborate anyway?
Do you think there is an objective scale on which women rate men? Or is this like a personal number (with some factors contributing more often than others)?

I argue the scale is personal and thus the statement is very misleading, giving guys unnecessary bad self-esteem.

I'am attracted to men who are intelligent, if they studied math that's a bonus. So I date an IT guy who's also emotionally available.

My friend? She doesn't see value in education. She's artsy. She dates a good-looking carpenter.

The guys both have some qualities, but she wouldn't date my guy and I wouldn't date her guy. Are they top 20%? Well, they guys also have their problems. Most my friends wouldn't rate either one top 20 because of their issues. 

I'm into guys who are rather robust and I don't mind fat, unless it's extreme obesity. You can lean on them. Another of my friends? Her guy has to be extremely skinny, otherwise, she's repelled.

I'm not saying great flirting skills (or "game") combined with money, looks, status won't work for sex attraction. That man teaching the tantric bdsm workshop? Oh my god, he had me instantly. (Only later did I learn he's also a mathematician and founder of a bank. Gulp.) The to 2% who tick all the boxes? They can really choose.
But my friend attending the same workshop? She thinks he's an ego maniac. She's repelled.

Sometimes, money is totally unimportant. There are even girls who are attracted to homeless anarchists.
Some women date poor people with disabilities who will never be able to provide for them as long as they have a good heart.
Sometimes looks is unimportant. If you fall in love for other reasons, your guy suddenly seems much more good looking.

Sometimes I'm attracted, but then the attraction vanishes instantly when they guy voices a political opinion.

But, I argue the majority of guys will have qualities which make them attractive to someone. This goes well with the fact that most people end up having a family.

This is not false hope for those who hide in a basement, play computer games and voice negative opinions about women. You have to go out, be social and have some skill. Almost any skill of your choosing plus some basic level of social intelligence.

Edited September 29 by Elisabeth

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

This just doesn't match my experience. I know you must have said it a 1000 times on this forum already, but would you care to elaborate anyway?
Do you think there is an objective scale on which women rate men? Or is this like a personal number (with some factors contributing more often than others)?

It doesn't match your experience because you are not looking at womankind as a whole but a few local cases.

Men have figured out long ago what women as a whole are attracted to. They use this knowledge to get laid. But from a woman's POV this knowledge is irrelevant and painful to look at.

Edited September 29 by Leo Gura

[Elisabeth]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It doesn't match your experience because you are not looking at womankind as a whole but a few local cases.

Men have figured out long ago what women as a whole are attracted to.

Then, what's your take on the fact that most men do find a partner eventually?