Latest Ukraine/Russia Thread

[Raze]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

If you assume that Russia should be like the West then Putin seems crazy and selfish for stopping it from happening. But there is another view, which is that Russia has its own way and needs. That's the basis for this whole conflict.

After the Cold War Russia did want to be like the west. Putin used to be more pro US. 
 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

After the Cold War Russia did want to be like the west. Putin used to be more pro US. 

So what?

He was pro US until he got a good taste of US hegemony and self-absorption.

The US was not willing to make any compromises with him. So he went his own way to safegaurd Russia sovereignty.

Edited yesterday at 01:36 PM by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is not giving him enough credit.

Pushing back against American hegemony is not the same as killing the wife you love out of jealousy. It's higher than that.

This is a matter of worldview and this fails to take into account the survival needs of Russia, which are different than the West.

If you assume that Russia should be like the West then Putin seems crazy and selfish for stopping it from happening. But there is another view, which is that Russia has its own way and needs. That's the basis for this whole conflict.

I know all that but Putin can’t stop that imo.

Eventually people want more freedom.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I know all that but Putin can’t stop that imo.

Eventually people want more freedom.

But it's a question of timing. Should the freedom come now or 50 years from now? It's not obvious what is best for Russia -- what Russian's can stomach.

It's like saying, Saudi Arabia should have gay parades and drunk cocaine club sluts walking around outside.  Eventually people will want it. Okay. But when will that society be ready for that? It takes time to develop into that.

Edited yesterday at 01:42 PM by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But it's a question of timing. Should the freedom come now or 50 years from now? It's not obvious what is best for Russia -- what Russian's can stomach.

It's like saying, Saudi Arabia should have gay parades and drunk cocaine club sluts walking around outside.  Eventually people will want it. Okay. But when will that society be ready for that? It takes time to develop into that.

Nah that’s a bad example. You see push pack against mr potato face in Russia. There was Navalny. Countless opposition in jail. Protests. Press in jail. People leaving the country. While Saudi Arabia is as a society very "conservative" and wouldn’t want gay parades.

These authoritarian leaders have to be so authoritarian and brutal. Because if they were not the people would go towards more freedom and say fuck you Mr. Potato and rocket boy.

[The Crocodile]

Iran has its first female cabinet members under the new president. 

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But it's a question of timing. Should the freedom come now or 50 years from now? It's not obvious what is best for Russia -- what Russian's can stomach.

It's like saying, Saudi Arabia should have gay parades and drunk cocaine club sluts walking around outside.  Eventually people will want it. Okay. But when will that society be ready for that? It takes time to develop into that.

I doubt he’s doing it out of some advanced developmental understanding. He primarily wants to maintain power, maybe he rationalizes to himself that it’s necessary for Russia.

 

[PurpleTree]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

I doubt he’s doing it out of some advanced developmental understanding. He primarily wants to maintain power, maybe he rationalizes to himself that it’s necessary for Russia.

 

He probably thinks if Russia opens up it will be devoured by the west, democracy, freedom, capitalism etc. 
And then regions will break away and so on.

Funny thing is In some ways he might delay the demise of Russia in many ways he might also accelerate it.

Edited yesterday at 02:17 PM by PurpleTree

[PurpleTree]

Hitler loved Germany, Austria imo.

But he caused almost the destruction of it. Regions lost forever and such. I mean Putin is more rational older and on less drugs but he also has the face of a Potato so.

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

 There was Navalny. Countless opposition in jail. Protests. Press in jail. People leaving the country. While Saudi Arabia is as a society very "conservative" and wouldn’t want gay parades.

There is a small pro-Western minority in Russia but the vast majority is on board for Putin's nationalist agenda. It suits their level of development and culture.

Quote

These authoritarian leaders have to be so authoritarian and brutal. Because if they were not the people would go towards more freedom and say fuck you.

It's always like that in every state. But people are fools and need to be whipped into order and peace with a stick.

You give people freedom and they destroy themselves. This is the whole basis for government.

8 hours ago, Raze said:

I doubt he’s doing it out of some advanced developmental understanding.

That is correct, but he doesn't need to be some Spiral Wizard, he just does what is traditional and maximizes power and survival. That's how all conservatives and authortrians operate. They do what survival demands of them. They do this by linking the state's survival with their personal survival.

Quote

He primarily wants to maintain power, maybe he rationalizes to himself that it’s necessary for Russia.

Of course that is a factor too.

But that also happens in the West. Trump and Musk do that too, conflating their personal power with what's best for society.

There is a deep intelligence to authoritarianism. This needs to be understood before you mindlessly criticize it. You have to understand why it exists.

Edited 23 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I know all that but Putin can’t stop that imo.

Eventually people want more freedom.

Where does the urge for freedom come from?

I feel like if you know you are being ruled by tyrants then you will want freedom but if you are fine with your leaders it wont really be the highest priority and you will urge for other values 

[fabger]

Russia vs NATO 2024 military comparison:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293174/nato-russia-military-comparison/

And this is only about size. The US alone is far more advanced in the military sector

[Lyubov]

It's superfluous to me if Putin loves Russia or not. What an abstract notion. It's kind of a tangent. Of course he loves his country and of course he wants to keeps his regime in power. I would say his survival script is definitely intertwined with this conflict and what's more important to understand. It's impossible for him to pull out and the more he escalates and the more Ukraine is pressed the more they escalate. 

Edited 23 hours ago by Lyubov

[Karmadhi]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a deep intelligence to authoritarianism. This needs to be understood before you mindlessly criticize it. You have to understand why it exists.

How you think the war will end realistically? Given Trump will enter office in a few weeks.

Very curious to hear your opinion  

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How you think the war will end realistically? Given Trump will enter office in a few weeks.

Very curious to hear your opinion  

It's so hard to say. I don't think anyone knows.

I am certainly not expecting Trump to solve anything, perhaps make it worse.

Edited 19 hours ago by Leo Gura