Latest Ukraine/Russia Thread

[BlueOak]

53 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Give me the source where the United states of america declares that Ukraine will not join NATO.

US has repeatedly doubled down on Ukraine joining NATO and Ukraine is already a defacto NATO member.

I know that clickbait article you are talking about. But that's not important. A neutral state cannot be in a western military alliance bordering Russia. 

It reflects poorly on you to be honest. BRICS isn't a military alliance unlike NATO. 

BRICS expansion is a means of fostering trade and business. NATO is in the business of Violence, Coups which they already have done. 

It was a CIA orchestrated coup. 

US missiles manned by US personnel is being fired from Ukrainian soil into Russia. 

So it wasn't a misspelling.

1, Ukraine offered neutrality very early on. Here are 3 links again:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukraines-zelensky-to-offer-neutrality-declaration-to-russia-for-peace-without-delay

https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-d375-4817-be67-802b7fa77ef1

2, The US, as a country (remember Trump, the Republicans, and the supposed anti-war 'far left' is also part of the US), seems the most reluctant for Ukraine to join NATO and somewhat reluctant to give aid. Its Eastern Europe, the Baltics, the UK and a few others in Europe that are driving aid to Ukraine. Mostly because Eastern Europe perceives itself to be the most under threat by the current pattern of Russian expansion, and the UK, France etc, don't tolerate expansionist powers in Europe without resistance.

3, BRICS is acting as a military alliance. Iran, Russia, and China share military resources, while economically the Russian war effort is supported by BRICS members. NATO is a defensive military alliance. If it reflects poorly on me mirroring you, you should reflect on that. Because until I started copying you it was driving me nuts in our conversations. Now i've just accepted that's the dialogue rather than argue it: NATO vs BRICS. (It isn't, its Russia vs Ukraine with support for each from other interested parties)

4, No evidence of that at all. Possible but I'd like to see your source. I watched the events; students were abducted, people protested, people were shot etc. If it was a coup, the dumb Russian government running Ukraine at the time did everything it could to play its own part. Consider why the conditions for a coup existed in the first place, and why for example Russia can't just flip Mexico, Canada, or wherever they like. They existed because Ukraine isn't Russia, and it resisted Russification from the new fascist regime which was causing internal tensions. Other countries can't create these tensions out of thin air.

5, No they are not. No American is firing missiles at Russia, yet. The conspiracies Russia puts out is part of what may make this WW3. They will create the reality they so desperately want to be true. That somehow they are fighting the entire collective west with a fraction of their military strength. This is a Russian fantasy to send young men to their death.

Edited November 22 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

40 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Statement from the president of Russia

Notice that Putin acknowledges that ATACMS and storm shadow missiles on Russian territory constitute a NATO attack on Russia. This is the most important part. NATO directly attacked Russia. Let that sink in. 

Putting this here because western media has a habit of twisting Putin's statement. So we need direct translation from the official site. 

Putin knows Ukraine was guaranteed by the US and the UK. He invaded anyway. He's lucky their armies aren't already there.

And by the way, the war had almost reached parity held in the east, until Russia started attacking Kherson again, so the Russian border area was invaded, and now that isn't happening anymore.

As I have said many many times, right from the start. NATO will do all it can to hold the war in Ukraine, preferably in the east, it will do everything it can to create the conditions for this to occur, including letting Ukraine shoot missiles into forces hopping back and forth over the northern Ukrainian border.

I am over-dramatizing when I say WW3 is assured; it isn't if the fight stays in the east.

Edited November 22 by BlueOak

[Bobby_2021]

25 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Ukraine offered neutrality very early on. Here are 3 links again

Again, the peace deal in Turkey in April of 2022 was legit until Boris Johnson told Ukraine to fight on.

The deal sabotaged 3 days after Johnson's visit.

Ukraine and Russia were in the right terms here. But Russia didn't reject the deal. 

29 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

BRICS is acting as a military alliance. Iran, Russia, and China share military resources, while economically the Russian war effort is supported by BRICS members.

And so what? US also shares military resources with BRICS. 

Drones made in Ukraine comes from chips and components made in China. So BRICS share military resources with Ukraine too.

Germany military and auto industry works on cheap Russian gas. 

It's Germany that funded most of Russian aggression by buying their gas.

BRICS buy far less Russian gas than EU even after the special military operation. 

You are trying to paint a passive trading entity as some violet offensive organization like NATO which is so comically wrong because NATO backed by US has an actual violent history of offensive operations, coups etc. 

[Bobby_2021]

44 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Putin knows Ukraine was guaranteed by the US and the UK. He invaded anyway. He's lucky their armies aren't already there.

What was guaranteed exactly? The only thing guaranteed now is Ukrainian defeat.

European armies couldn't take these many casualties. So deploying armies is a joke. 

What took a 1000 days for the west to manifest their guarantees anyway?  

There is nothing that anyone can do to change the direction of the war. Trump will seal the deal for good. Weakening NATO would be the cherry on top. 

Now if Russia retaliates against NATO, don't claim that it's Russia that provoked the war. NATO attacked Russia for no reason really. 

[Bobby_2021]

51 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

including letting Ukraine shoot missiles into forces hopping back and forth over the northern Ukrainian border.

This is factually false.

Ukraine doesn't have the technical knowledge, training or authorization to use western advanced missile that are integrated with western GPS, satellites, guidance system etc.

It's NATO that is directly firing missiles into Russia.  Which means NATO weapons operated NATO personnel is firing the Missiles. It's NOT Ukraine.

This fact is never addressed by the western media.

NATO can't attack Russia without consequences.

NATO can do everything to defend Ukraine. This is why Russia is okay with ATACMS missiles being fired into disputed Ukrainian territory under Russian control. 

 

 

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is factually false.

Ukraine doesn't have the technical knowledge, training or authorization to use western advanced missile that are integrated with western GPS, satellites, guidance system etc.

It's NATO that is directly firing missiles into Russia.  Which means NATO weapons operated NATO personnel is firing the Missiles. It's NOT Ukraine.

This fact is never addressed by the western media.

NATO can't attack Russia without consequences.

NATO can do everything to defend Ukraine. This is why Russia is okay with ATACMS missiles being fired into disputed Ukrainian territory under Russian control. 

 

 

Ukraine has been trained for years now. They've been fighting a war for years. Their army is one of the best in Europe. 

Its not addressed in western media because it is a figment of Russian imagination, used as a way to encourage their people to throw themselves into a slaughter so an old man can feel like an emperor.

 

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

What was guaranteed exactly? The only thing guaranteed now is Ukrainian defeat.

European armies couldn't take these many casualties. So deploying armies is a joke. 

What took a 1000 days for the west to manifest their guarantees anyway?  

There is nothing that anyone can do to change the direction of the war. Trump will seal the deal for good. Weakening NATO would be the cherry on top. 

Now if Russia retaliates against NATO, don't claim that it's Russia that provoked the war. NATO attacked Russia for no reason really. 

Ukraine was guaranteed to be protected by the US and the UK in return for giving up its nukes.

You really like to twist things its amazing. Putin invades, Putin continues to threaten and push everyone, terrorises countries in multiple wars, kills civilians on mass, and threatens energy, fuel, leadership, the people of our countries, then supposedly if they attack our countries, we are to blame in Europe. Incredible logic, how people will jump through hoops to avoid responsibility for their own positions.

Sorry it's not happening. If he really wants a war with us he'll get one. We are not backing down from a fascist tyrant on either side of the atlantic. Hint, he doesn't. He has no hope in a conventional war, he has two options to keep throwing his people away or not.
 

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Again, the peace deal in Turkey in April of 2022 was legit until Boris Johnson told Ukraine to fight on.

The deal sabotaged 3 days after Johnson's visit.

Ukraine and Russia were in the right terms here. But Russia didn't reject the deal. 

And so what? US also shares military resources with BRICS. 

Drones made in Ukraine comes from chips and components made in China. So BRICS share military resources with Ukraine too.

Germany military and auto industry works on cheap Russian gas. 

It's Germany that funded most of Russian aggression by buying their gas.

BRICS buy far less Russian gas than EU even after the special military operation. 

You are trying to paint a passive trading entity as some violet offensive organization like NATO which is so comically wrong because NATO backed by US has an actual violent history of offensive operations, coups etc. 

Yeah i'm sure.
I'm sure old Boris went in there and was supposedly told Ukraine, the US, France and the entirety of NATO and all the negotiators how things were going to go. Doesn't that run counter to your narrative that everything west of Ukraine = the USA? Or is that an inconvenient detail in the narrative?

China sends materials to the war effort. Iran sends missiles and munitions. North Korea are now sending personnel. 
BRICS as a whole do their best to keep the Russian war economy going.

Nobody in NATO is trying to keep the Russian war economy going by choice. By necessity at times, but anything economic they do, BRICS counters. So there is only war, they've largely given up on the economic angle. That's what two powerblocks leads to, they can't settle things by economic means as we have done in the past, so when leaders decide to fight they fight just with force and a larger amount of casualties is required to decide the outcome.

You trying to paint every country west of Ukraine as the US is comical to me also. When most of have them have neither the temperament or capability to fight offensive wars on the other side of the world against regional powers. Your hatred for the US weakens every post you make as a result. If you could for once remove the bias to say NATO is more than the US and Ukraine itself is fighting for Ukraine, you'd have stronger more balanced perspectives all around.

I can see that in Russia, I can see in Eastern Europe, I can see it in US interests, Chinese Interests, BRICS interest and in Ukraine itself. For some reason, though you have divided the world up into Good and Bad, and you've decided you are on the good side so it's all okay, and one sort of violence is somehow more correct than the other. Rather than being able to see through the perspectives of others, you shut them down.

Russia believes it needs to fight this war, so it is doing. Right now I believe we need to fight back to stop them.

Edited November 22 by BlueOak

[zazen]

@Bobby_2021 @BlueOak

Check out the first 6 minutes of this:

 

[Lyubov]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is factually false.

Ukraine doesn't have the technical knowledge, training or authorization to use western advanced missile that are integrated with western GPS, satellites, guidance system etc.

It's NATO that is directly firing missiles into Russia.  Which means NATO weapons operated NATO personnel is firing the Missiles. It's NOT Ukraine.

This fact is never addressed by the western media.

NATO can't attack Russia without consequences.

NATO can do everything to defend Ukraine. This is why Russia is okay with ATACMS missiles being fired into disputed Ukrainian territory under Russian control. 

 

 

Yes they do? They were trained on the HIMARS system which is modified to launch ATACMS. How familiar are you actually with the actual technology that has been given to Ukraine as well as the training provided? Or are you just making assumptions? Ukraine has been well funded and trained to use the weapons provided to them. NATO is not taking any direct action in this war. They are providing weapons, training and knowledge based assistance as guidance. It is the Ukraine state and Armed forces making decisions and responding. 

[BlueOak]

@zazen

The first six minutes is a morality argument:

How many people do Russia have to kill before they get a video of a man in a chair saying how bad their foreign policy is?
How many arms do they have to sell, they are 2nd to America currently; do they need to be at the top?
How many dictators do they need to finance, arm, train, and deploy in support of? Because they'd need a second chair right now.

Is this really still they are bad, we are good reasoning? Is there a scorecard being kept for people's grudges? Because these people one side of the world have done harm, then we can just condone whatever anyone does around the globe because it makes us feel better in our own convictions.  

I am supposed to now tell you how bad Putin is, list several reasons, and use that to condone someone dropping bombs on Moscow or Beijing. What is the point of any of this? Do I need again to tell you how psychopathic the pursuit of profit is when set against even a single human life and American oil or the black blood of the earth? Or the pursuit of land and empire for that matter when Russia does it?

None of this is okay. I wish people would stop lying to themselves it was. I could then look them in the eye and have a wider discussion. Instead, I need to argue morality with you, which will bring nobody closer to a solution, but it can remove the fog surrounding finding one.

Or we can go on pretending one group of apes armed with machine guns acts better than the other I suppose. Trying to pretend most of the globe isn't clawing for everything it can get its hands on.

Edited November 23 by BlueOak

[Lyubov]

Let’s bring this down to reality. Honestly, what is the way forward here and the solution to this issue? I don’t see a solution as of now, not even if there’s a ceasefire. It’s gotten quite tangled. The west does not trust Putin to stick to any ceasefire, he can just rearm and go in for more land in 3-5 years. NATO also would not commit to a definitive defeat of Russia (pushing Russian army back to 2022 Ukraine borders + destruction of military positions in Crimea) due to fears of escalation and nukes. They have given Ukraine enough to create a buffer and forever war. Really, what is the solution here? Ukraine capitulation would create an existential problem for NATO, a real risk Putin would test them by attacking a Baltic state. Western leaders seem scared and move slow giving Ukraine what it needs to push Russia back. Ukraine has proven itself it’s capable of defeating Russia when given the technological advantage, where there is plenty of on the NATO side. 

Edited November 23 by Lyubov

[Bobby_2021]

On 11/23/2024 at 2:21 AM, zazen said:

@Bobby_2021 @BlueOak

Check out the first 6 minutes of this:

 

The intellectual laziness of writers to uncover this information is staggering. Most people are oblivious to the sheer degree of the scale of their operations. Unfathomable indeed.

History books should be written and talked about om this!!

On 11/23/2024 at 3:52 AM, Lyubov said:

Yes they do? They were trained on the HIMARS system which is modified to launch ATACMS. How familiar are you actually with the actual technology that has been given to Ukraine as well as the training provided? Or are you just making assumptions? Ukraine has been well funded and trained to use the weapons provided to them. NATO is not taking any direct action in this war. They are providing weapons, training and knowledge based assistance as guidance. It is the Ukraine state and Armed forces making decisions and responding. 

Ukraine may be pressing the final button that launches the missile. But given the advanced nature of these systems they are deeply integrated within western tech.

The launch coordinates are approved and set by someone in US or EU using western satellites that is maintained by west that guides the missiles to their target. 

So it goes more than merely training the Ukrainian soldiers. 

This is why Putin calls the west as a coparty in attacking Russia with their recent actions.

Russians have hard evidence and intel that proves the action of the US and UK in instigating attack against Russia. You can refuse to acknowledge and call it Russian propaganda or something. That doesn't change the facts.

 

[Bobby_2021]

On 11/23/2024 at 1:28 AM, BlueOak said:

Ukraine was guaranteed to be protected by the US and the UK in return for giving up its nukes.

Ukraine did NOT have nukes.

Ukraine never had nukes.

It's the nukes of the USSR stationed in Ukrainian soil that is moved back to Russia after the dissolution of the USSR.

If you are talking about the Budapest memorandum in 1994, perhaps the pertinent issue is that Ukraine promised a non aligned stance, which was violated by the west by allowing Ukraine into NATO.

Ukraine is supposed to be a non aligned state for a reason. This is exactly what Putin says too.

16 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Let’s bring this down to reality. Honestly, what is the way forward here and the solution to this issue? I don’t see a solution as of now, not even if there’s a ceasefire. It’s gotten quite tangled. The west does not trust Putin to stick to any ceasefire, he can just rearm and go in for more land in 3-5 years. NATO also would not commit to a definitive defeat of Russia (pushing Russian army back to 2022 Ukraine borders + destruction of military positions in Crimea) due to fears of escalation and nukes. They have given Ukraine enough to create a buffer and forever war. Really, what is the solution here? Ukraine capitulation would create an existential problem for NATO, a real risk Putin would test them by attacking a Baltic state. Western leaders seem scared and move slow giving Ukraine what it needs to push Russia back. Ukraine has proven itself it’s capable of defeating Russia when given the technological advantage, where there is plenty of on the NATO side. 

You have managed to condense so much misinformation in one post. 

There plenty of chances for a ceasefire that were sabotaged by the west and told Ukraine to fight on because Russian are fighting with shovels and crumbling from corruption. Well, that didn't happen.

West has openly commited to the "strategic defeat of Russia".  How can Russia engage in good faith conversations with a party that want to see itself defeated? So not going to happen.

There is nothing NATO can do to push Russia back to it's pre 2022 borders. They aren't afraid of escalation and nukes. NATO literally directly attacked Russian motherland this week.

The only way forward is Ukrainian surrender. This would be bad PR for NATO. 

There is absolutely ZERO risk of Putin attacking any Baltic state. 

The west loves to prop up boogeyman figures to justify attacks and invasion.

Remember when Iraq has weapons of mass destruction booho. Sadam hussain boooho. 

The west has given everything it can give. There is nothing more to do. Trump would be the final nail in the coffin. Even with endless support Ukraine couldn't do anything. They have a manpower problem. No amount of western support can solve this. 

Ukraine was never going to defeat Russia. This was obvious from the get go. Saying this was akin to Russian disinformation. Amd that Russia would crumble in weeks. Obviously the Trust has come to bite you. 

[LSD-Rumi]

On 9/19/2024 at 0:49 PM, PurpleTree said:

i think kyle is a bit annoying also why is he bleaching his hair

but his take here is decent imo

 

 

I don't Think Putin is a war criminal but he is definitely a fascist. A war criminal is someone who intentionally targets civilians or is indifferent to civilian casualties. The number of Ukrainian civilian deaths is relatively low compared to the casualties in Gaza. The massive destruction In Gaza alone is a War crime. 

Edit: Putin is a war criminal in the sense he supported The Syrian Regimie which committed acts of terror similar to that of Nazis. Torture, abduction, mass genocide. Is Biden a war criminal too in that sense? maybe but I I think Putin didn't care one bit about the lives of Syrian people, his support was indefinite.

Edited Sunday at 12:46 PM by LSD-Rumi

[Bobby_2021]

Putin is not the good guy here in the realms of geopolitics.

But admitting that even bad guys maybe right atleast 30% of the time is unthinkable for the west. Even saying that there is a tiny bit of legitimacy for Russian world view is akin to being a Russian disinformation and propagandist. Could the Russians be correct even 1% of the time? 

But the veil of moral superiority has come off with the gaza situation as far as the west is concerned. People are seeing the western narratives and hypocrisy for what it is.

No "Pro Russia" side has justified the invasion. But merely stating that there is legitimacy to their actions. And not taking that into account will lead to more death and destruction just like what happened with previous western interventionist efforts.

 

[ricachica]

Thoughts on the ballistic missiles from the other day? The response the admiral made?

[Bobby_2021]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/26/russia-ukraine-war-live-record-russian-drones-ukraine-kyiv-nato

We are already in WW3.

[Bobby_2021]

https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-war-biden-draft-08e3bad195585b7c3d9662819cc5618f

Drafting 18 year olds is evil. These are still kids. 

[Nemra]

7 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Drafting 18 year olds is evil. These are still kids.

Most countries do that. Russia does that.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Nemra said:

Most countries do that. Russia does that.

Yea but when Russia does it it’s different.

They are like sooo kewl and feisty also putinism communism is hawt.

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea but when Russia does it it’s different.

There is no forced conscription in Russia. 30k men are volunteering to join the Army per month based on Incentives alone.

Quote

Every morning, Artem signs on for work as one of Ukraine’s feared recruitment officers in his home town somewhere in the country’s war-torn East.
After a short briefing, his team decides where they will go: some are sent to cafés, restaurants, even nightclubs – anywhere where young men of fighting age might be found.
Then, the difficult work begins.
“Sometimes it’s like dealing with a cornered rat,” Artem told The Telegraph, as he explained how he gets his targets into vans and off to desperate military recruitment centres.
“They continue fighting even while in the vehicle. Those who resist always threaten to take revenge on our guys or their families,” he added.
Ukraine’s military is suffering a chronic manpower crisis as the Russian army advances at its fastest pace since the war began.
Washington is now pressing Kyiv to lower the mobilisation age from 25 to 18 to replace its battlefield losses and help withstand Russia’s offensive.
The country’s very survival depends on how many extra bodies Artem’s team can get to the trenches – and how fast.

Artem, who asked not to use his real name, works for the Territorial Centre of Recruitment and Social Support (TCC) – something he would not tell his family or friends.
The work of the TCC has been thrust into the spotlight by viral videos of men in camouflage stopping others on the streets and dragging them off to join the army.
Emergency recruitment has now turned into a game of cat and mouse, with sightings of TCC officers posted in online chat groups to warn refuseniks.
Young men in the chat groups secretly talk of limiting the number of times they leave their homes, and of avoiding subways and busy city centres where they might be captured.
TCC officers such as Artem are painted as brutal and ruthless kidnappers willing to go to extreme measures to reach their monthly quota of new military recruits.
Artem, a 28-year-old husband and father of one, agreed to speak to The Telegraph anonymously and under the condition his home town would not be revealed, for fear of reprisals.
TCC officers have responsibility for military conscription in Ukraine and must ensure all men in Ukraine of fighting age, currently 18 to 60, are registered for military service.
Many men in Ukraine are already registered in the country’s military database.
But others have been evading the requirement for nearly three years, hoping not to be enlisted, lest they come home from the front lines maimed or in a body bag, like so many of their compatriots.
Artem said that each morning, the TCC officers meet for their daily briefing before dispersing to various areas of his city to begin their work.
Some officers go to military checkpoints at key entries and exits from the city, while others patrol the streets and stop any men they encounter.
“Some teams move around the city by vehicle in constant search mode,” he said. “We have areas where our groups work almost constantly – mostly transportation hubs, but sometimes we leave these spots so people don’t become accustomed to avoiding them.”

The officers frequently work at market entrances, parks, beaches, cafes, and areas near factories or other businesses where men work, Artem said.
He confirmed he had targets to meet, and said: “Due to understaffing, we barely choose whom to stop – now nearly everyone is subject to inspection.”
When he first began working for TCC, Artem said, he did not stop men who appeared to be “visibly weak individuals” – but now he does.
“Almost always, adrenaline speaks for itself. Even those whose documents are in order still show fear,” he said.
Those with documents ordinarily have severe injuries that bar them from serving, are students or volunteers, or are working with international journalists.

However, at times, documents have been forged, and some men pay thousands of dollars to receive them. Artem’s team is responsible for verifying them.
After the men are rounded up into vans, Artem said, they are then forced to take a military medical examination. Those who pass are forced to a training centre to prepare to be sent to the front lines.
“Previously, we allowed people to go home and pack, but lately, they don’t return voluntarily. They hide and don’t show up. Sometimes, we have to confiscate their phones depending on the situation,” he said.
Some men have no way of telling their family and friends where they are. The Telegraph has received unverified Instagram stories from sources that show people frantically looking for anyone who might have been in contact with their loved ones recently, and adding that they are afraid that the TCC has abducted them.
One woman in Kyiv posted that she was searching for her ex-boyfriend, who had been missing for a few days. A few hours later, she posted a second story that she had found him – he had been forced to the front lines already.

On Telegram, a channel called “Weather Kyiv” where residents post recent sightings of TCC officers, has over 104,000 subscribers; these include images and videos of men dressed in camouflage, stopping men on the streets and writing them documents.
The subscribers claim the men are TCC officers and, several times a day, the channel posts where in Kyiv men should avoid. Red exclamation marks show where officers might be while sun emojis show alleged safe areas.
One man, who subscribes to Weather Kyiv and asked to be referred to as “Basiley”, told The Telegraph: “Men who have an age that is appropriate for military drafting are scared to walk freely in the street. If you go in the Kyiv subway, you will see youths under 25, people in military uniform, or elderly people, but not guys from 25 to 40, because we are scared.”
Basiley is 35 and said he avoids any unnecessary trips to Kyiv’s city centre. When Basiley leaves his home, he said he feels anxious, afraid of any large car moving slowly along next to him.

Speaking of TCC using force to send men to the military, Basiley said: “It’s a serious problem because people understand that this is a one-way road. We don’t have any specific limits of time that people have to serve in the military, and when you’re taken, it’s forever. In many cases, this bitter end happens very fast.
“You’re basically afraid to walk from your home,” he added.
Artem has been working as a TCC officer for more than one and a half years, and said he took the job because he enjoys “being part of the system”.
He said when he first started working with the TCC he felt pity and compassion for his targets.
“I’ve learned to control my emotions during work, and now it’s just a job for me. I always have the argument: It’s either them or me,” he said.
He added: “I believe it’s better to work for TCC than to hide from it.”

Man this is so sad.